"I tweak, therefore I am" - Equivalencies and Modifiers in OOTPB2006

Marc Duffy · 02-22-2006, 10:06 AM

There has certainly been a lot of interest in the equivalency functionality that Markus has put into OOTPB2006, so OOTPB 2006 tester Steve Battisti took some time to play with it. With some interesting results.

http://www.ootpbaseball2006.com/news...ews=view&id=42

battists · 02-22-2006, 10:11 AM

w00t! First reply!

Oh, wait...

Sublimity · 02-22-2006, 10:31 AM

w00t, second reply!

Thanks, battists.

thomamon · 02-22-2006, 11:12 AM

Third one is a charm!

emysdk · 02-22-2006, 11:24 AM

Would I be right in thinking that player creation equivalencies stick with a player no matter what league they're in, but the MLB equivalency will change if they move leagues - i.e. if they have a given equivalency of .800 and the league they're created in has the same equivalency of .800, they'll effectively work at a .640 level whilst in that league (as battisti said in his blog), but if they then move to a league which has that equivalency at 1.000, they'll be working at about the .800 level (.800 x 1.000)? Does that make sense?

Also, is it possible to set an equivalency above 1.000? Say I wanted to make a European league which which was just that little bit better than the MLB

D Love · 02-22-2006, 11:30 AM

hehe, I think results in a league are <i>inversely</i> related to the league totals.

Mike Donlin · 02-22-2006, 11:31 AM

Hmm...this all looks great, if a little complicated. I just skimmed it, but it's not at all clear why one would use both Creation Modifiers and Major League Equivalents.

And I'm a bit disappointed that, contrary to some talk around these boards a while back, the creation modifiers aren't tied to League Totals. In other words, if you want a deadball league with deadball players, you would enter the league totals you want and the game would generate players whose ratings and talent that reflect those numbers. As opposed to now, where you can enter deadball totals and still get players created with 100 Power, which can mess up the AI in terms of player evaluation--and it just don't look right.

But c'est la vie.

draven085 · 02-22-2006, 11:40 AM

It's somewhat disappointing that Markus didn't adjust the counterintuitive nature of the league totals. Everything else, however, is very exciting.

battists · 02-22-2006, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emysdk

Would I be right in thinking that player creation equivalencies stick with a player no matter what league they're in, but the MLB equivalency will change if they move leagues

You've got the right idea, but your logic is a tiny bit off. Player Creation Modifiers don't "stick" with anyone. They're only in play at the moment a player is created. After that, they are a non-factor. They don't get re-applied when a player moves between leagues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by emysdk

if they have a given equivalency of .800 and the league they're created in has the same equivalency of .800, they'll effectively work at a .640 level whilst in that league (as battisti said in his blog), but if they then move to a league which has that equivalency at 1.000, they'll be working at about the .800 level (.800 x 1.000)?

Erm, I'm not sure I quite know the answer to that.

Hopefully this will get a little clearer than mud when I post some examples.

Quote:

Originally Posted by emysdk

Also, is it possible to set an equivalency above 1.000? Say I wanted to make a European league which which was just that little bit better than the MLB

Yes!

battists · 02-22-2006, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by draven085

It's somewhat disappointing that Markus didn't adjust the counterintuitive nature of the league totals. Everything else, however, is very exciting.

Well, he did, sort of.

At least, he provided an alternative. If you find the totals counter-intuitive, then just use the modifiers. They work the "right way 'round."

cephasjames · 02-22-2006, 11:45 AM

Excellent blog, Battists! Thanks.

battists · 02-22-2006, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Donlin

And I'm a bit disappointed that, contrary to some talk around these boards a while back, the creation modifiers aren't tied to League Totals. In other words, if you want a deadball league with deadball players, you would enter the league totals you want and the game would generate players whose ratings and talent that reflect those numbers. As opposed to now, where you can enter deadball totals and still get players created with 100 Power, which can mess up the AI in terms of player evaluation--and it just don't look right.

Mike, I'm not sure I get what you're saying, but it seems to me that this setup would allow you to achieve what you wanted. Hopefully, I will be able to do a "deadball era" in my testing and post the results. Although, I'm not much of a historical simmer.

Cras · 02-22-2006, 11:49 AM

Are the era presets still in the game, such as deadball, rebirth etc.

Because to be honest, that blog just confused the hell out of me.

andymac · 02-22-2006, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battists

Mike, I'm not sure I get what you're saying, but it seems to me that this setup would allow you to achieve what you wanted. Hopefully, I will be able to do a "deadball era" in my testing and post the results. Although, I'm not much of a historical simmer.

It should, it will just be a little more work to get it to "look right". Instead of just changing the League Totals, the Creation Modifiers will probably also need to be changed in order to prevent the guys with 100 Power or Stuff ratings in a deadball era league.

The reason for making those changes is that the AI doesn't necessarily realize that home runs are very rare and so will over-value guys with high power ratings, when in actuality the league leader might not even get 10 home runs. In order to compensate for the AI, the ratings need to be lower. He was hoping changing the league totals would do this automatically, instead it is a bit more work.

Mike Donlin · 02-22-2006, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battists

Mike, I'm not sure I get what you're saying, but it seems to me that this setup would allow you to achieve what you wanted. Hopefully, I will be able to do a "deadball era" in my testing and post the results. Although, I'm not much of a historical simmer.

What I'm saying is that as it stands now, if I want to create a deadball league with deadball-era players (i.e., for example, much less home run power), I need to *both* alter the league total numbers *and* the player creation numbers.

This is annoying for two reasons.

(1) I have to guess how much I should lower player creation numbers to reflect my new league totals. If I reduce the number of home runs in a league by 50%, it never works out just to enter -50% in the player creation power modifier. One is always guessing, fudging, and it is never as accurate as it could be.

(2) If I want my league totals to change, and my players to reflect those changes--say in the transition from deadball to 1920s play--I have to constantly change my creation modifiers as well.

My point is that this would all be so much easier if the default league total numbers were present-day MLB numbers, and thus no creation modifiers are in play. If, however, I alter the league totals, then the creation modifiers would also automatically be altered as well.

cephasjames · 02-22-2006, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Donlin

And I'm a bit disappointed that, contrary to some talk around these boards a while back, the creation modifiers aren't tied to League Totals. In other words, if you want a deadball league with deadball players, you would enter the league totals you want and the game would generate players whose ratings and talent that reflect those numbers. As opposed to now, where you can enter deadball totals and still get players created with 100 Power, which can mess up the AI in terms of player evaluation--and it just don't look right.

I don't think 100 power means he's going to hit 58 homers though. I think 100 power just means he'll be right on as one of the league leaders in homers. The League Totals will determine about how many homers the leaders will have. If the league totals are set to .125 then the league leaders will hit about 12.5% of the amount of homers as they would if League Totals was set at 1.0.

Is that right Battists?

phenom · 02-22-2006, 11:57 AM

I recently started a fictional league in 1901, and this is the first time I've messed with creation modifiers. IMO, it's much easier than tweaking league totals, and I feel I've gotten good results.

Mike Donlin · 02-22-2006, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andymac

It should, it will just be a little more work to get it to "look right". Instead of just changing the League Totals, the Creation Modifiers will probably also need to be changed in order to prevent the guys with 100 Power or Stuff ratings in a deadball era league.

The reason for making those changes is that the AI doesn't necessarily realize that home runs are very rare and so will over-value guys with high power ratings, when in actuality the league leader might not even get 10 home runs. In order to compensate for the AI, the ratings need to be lower. He was hoping changing the league totals would do this automatically, instead it is a bit more work.

Exactly. More work, and one never knows if they have done anything more than guess about how much to change the creation modifiers.

Mike Donlin · 02-22-2006, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cephasjames

I don't think 100 power means he's going to hit 58 homers though. I think 100 power just means he'll be right on as one of the league leaders in homers. The League Totals will determine about how many homers the leaders will have. If the league totals are set to .125 then the league leaders will hit about 12.5% of the amount of homers as they would if League Totals was set at 1.0.

Is that right Battists?

Right, but the AI will value him as though he will hit 58 home runs.

emysdk · 02-22-2006, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battists

You've got the right idea, but your logic is a tiny bit off. Player Creation Modifiers don't "stick" with anyone. They're only in play at the moment a player is created. After that, they are a non-factor. They don't get re-applied when a player moves between leagues.

Oops

Yeah, I can see where I went wrong. So they'd be an ".800-level" player by their stats/potential, but the level they perform at depends on the equivalencies of whatever league they're playing in at the time - if they play in the MLB, they'll play roughly to the level set at their creation. What I said was clearly gibberish

Thanks, battists

02-22-2006, 10:06 AM	#1
Marc Duffy SI Marketing Wizard Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Old Street, London Posts: 4,741	"I tweak, therefore I am" - Equivalencies and Modifiers in OOTPB2006 There has certainly been a lot of interest in the equivalency functionality that Markus has put into OOTPB2006, so OOTPB 2006 tester Steve Battisti took some time to play with it. With some interesting results. http://www.ootpbaseball2006.com/news...ews=view&id=42

02-22-2006, 10:31 AM	#3
Sublimity Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: This thread. Posts: 3,199	w00t, second reply! Thanks, battists. __________________ mrs ria: I hereby dub Sublimity the Glorious Upholder of the 5B3. Current leading vote-getter in the Worst Poster in OT History poll.

02-22-2006, 11:12 AM	#4
thomamon Global Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 5,274	Third one is a charm! __________________ Thomas A. Montalto Please check out my Stupid Little Blog - http://www.stupidlittleblog.com

02-22-2006, 11:31 AM	#7
Mike Donlin All Star Reserve Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Life, friends, is boring. Posts: 840	Hmm...this all looks great, if a little complicated. I just skimmed it, but it's not at all clear why one would use both Creation Modifiers and Major League Equivalents. And I'm a bit disappointed that, contrary to some talk around these boards a while back, the creation modifiers aren't tied to League Totals. In other words, if you want a deadball league with deadball players, you would enter the league totals you want and the game would generate players whose ratings and talent that reflect those numbers. As opposed to now, where you can enter deadball totals and still get players created with 100 Power, which can mess up the AI in terms of player evaluation--and it just don't look right. But c'est la vie. Last edited by Mike Donlin; 02-22-2006 at 11:33 AM.

02-22-2006, 11:45 AM	#11
cephasjames Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 8,736	Excellent blog, Battists! Thanks. __________________ 5000+ Generic Logos Free for the Taking FREE: Uniforms and logos for 500+ teams spanning 1871-present Great Lakes League: 10 Conferences, 100 Teams Pre-OOTP 23 Custom Cap & Jersey Template v3.0 by Deft and NoPepper (with layers from other various artists) that I use: Caps, Jerseys

02-22-2006, 10:11 AM	#2
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506	w00t! First reply! Oh, wait...

02-22-2006, 11:24 AM	#5
emysdk Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 276	Would I be right in thinking that player creation equivalencies stick with a player no matter what league they're in, but the MLB equivalency will change if they move leagues - i.e. if they have a given equivalency of .800 and the league they're created in has the same equivalency of .800, they'll effectively work at a .640 level whilst in that league (as battisti said in his blog), but if they then move to a league which has that equivalency at 1.000, they'll be working at about the .800 level (.800 x 1.000)? Does that make sense? Also, is it possible to set an equivalency above 1.000? Say I wanted to make a European league which which was just that little bit better than the MLB

02-22-2006, 11:30 AM	#6
D Love All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 904	hehe, I think results in a league are <i>inversely</i> related to the league totals.

02-22-2006, 11:40 AM	#8
draven085 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: New Jersey Posts: 2,074	It's somewhat disappointing that Markus didn't adjust the counterintuitive nature of the league totals. Everything else, however, is very exciting.

02-22-2006, 11:49 AM	#13
Cras Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: LEO Posts: 3,789	Are the era presets still in the game, such as deadball, rebirth etc. Because to be honest, that blog just confused the hell out of me. Last edited by Cras; 02-22-2006 at 12:07 PM.

02-22-2006, 11:57 AM	#17
phenom Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Near the Great Wall. On the GOOD side. Posts: 3,763	I recently started a fictional league in 1901, and this is the first time I've messed with creation modifiers. IMO, it's much easier than tweaking league totals, and I feel I've gotten good results.