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Old 02-19-2020, 03:51 PM   #1
Aaron's Aron
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Changing Displayed Stats in OOTP 21

* I know there is a thread for new features, but since this isn't really a feature but just changing what is displayed, I thought it could use it's own thread.


I would really enjoy it if the statistics that are displayed in various areas of the game are changed to entail more modern sabermetrics and analytics. I am mainly referring to Player Profiles, but it also could be applied to places such as the leaderboards next to the standings when simming or in-game lineups. It simply takes too many clicks to find some of the most useful stats for evaluating players.

To use a very basic example and not a stat that is too fancy: FIP for pitchers. ERA is displayed everywhere, but FIP is not found on the in-game screens or the standard leaderboards when simming. To find it on the Player Profiles, it takes multiple clicks. I think it is fine if you want to keep ERA on the front page to not overwhelm people to quickly (gradual change), but considering that FIP is an objectively better statistic for indicating pitcher performance, it should certainly be included as well. For hitters a good example of a similar issue would be with wRC+. It takes multiple clicks to find this.

I am not saying we should get rid of the traditional statistics, but considering they don't all correlate well to player performance and helping a team win (please remove RBIs from the leaderboard when simming and in-game lineups and put something more useful!), we should either add more stats to more easily accessible places or be able to edit which stats are shown ourselves.

I am aware that you can edit views when looking at your roster or a list of players, and I do do that. However, that is really only useful when looking at my current roster and not if there is a random player I want to click on from a random screen and quickly see.

I understand the reason that many people aren't used to modern analytics and prefer the traditional stats is because TV broadcasts and stadiums (for the most part, although stadiums are getting slightly better) continue to use them and feed them down our throats. Even a lot of baseball reporters will list things such as "X player just signed with Y team and he hit .247 with 17 homeruns and 56 RBIs last year." People are used to these stats and I understand that. However, they don't correlate well to runs, so we should use the stats that do. I know some older folks would hate this, but that is how you learn. If it is never presented to you, you will never change and grow accustomed to it. Right now, by spewing batting average, RBIs, and ERA down our throats everywhere stats are shown, we are setting bad examples and teaching bad stats to people. People think these stats define a player when really they don't at all. As a strong community of people who love baseball, I think it is our responsibility to teach people the proper way to view baseball stats.

Whether it is the option to edit the stats in these areas ourselves, or just have things added by default (such as how things like OPS+ and WAR were added, which is a good start at least), more information needs to be more easily accessible.

When I was younger and played this game for years, I was fine with these traditional stats. However, now as someone who is in a sabermetrics and multiple business analytics classes in college, it drives me crazy when people comment things using the traditional stats mentioned previously. People don't know better because they're not told otherwise. I don't want to change the whole game, but simply educate people, as well as make it less of a huge frustration to actually look up useful stats for players while I'm playing the game. It takes too many clicks to find a lot of the most useful stats for a given player. Maybe some will disagree, but I do hope some people understand where I'm coming from.

Which stats should be added to a main screen could certainly be discussed, but there certainly needs to be some changes because it is currently a bit frustrating having to go to the second or third page of stats in the profile.

Thank you to anyone taking the time to read this, and I love this game. :]

Last edited by Aaron's Aron; 02-19-2020 at 05:06 PM.
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Old 02-19-2020, 06:23 PM   #2
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My thought would be, since the screens, as they are now, are already built why not keep them as is and then build optional "new metric" screens? Which ever screen type you select would lock in as the default. Then allow one to customize the new metric screens as you want. Kind of like you have the option of the game making traditional lineups or saber metric ones, you could then menu select which display you would like in your game.

Might just be me but I would not want to see the old type stat displays to be removed. I hope to retire in the next 2-3 years and at that time would like to start a historical league to play along side my on going modern setup (don't have time to run two games when I have to work). I plan to start in 1969, the first season I really got into watching baseball and, again might just be me, but seeing all of the modern stats in my historical world would just seem wrong. If I'm playing in '69 I want to see only '69 stats, new metrics would take away from the historical feel. I don't know but imagine other historical players might feel the same way?

I've watched baseball for 50+ years and am not stuck on the old way at all, I've evolved with the new stats as they have appeared. Fully support your idea of adding more new stats and better\optional ways to view them. I just don't want to see them hard coded and replacing the old way when the better answer, to me, is to allow us to all build our own views.
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Old 02-19-2020, 07:40 PM   #3
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Maybe tie in the modern stats with the modern skins. And basic stats for basic skin. Something like that, maybe.
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Old 02-19-2020, 07:42 PM   #4
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Update the game to modern times, by all means. Has to be optional though, far far too many stats to pick from.

As for the rest of the post - I'm one of those "old folks". I took the time to educate myself, spent weeks over at Fangraphs reading about sabremetrics, bought and read a couple books on it.

I still like the old stats, I don't care if they don't tell me about "runs". I know runs win games. I also know there's a whole lot more to baseball than runs.

The "proper way to view stats"? Please. There's many ways to view the stats, no one being more proper than another.

If it drives you crazy, don't listen. You're going to have to suck it up for a while yet college boy, us "old folks who don't know any better" aren't going away for about another 20 - 30 years.

I honestly wonder how us "old folks" managed to understand and enjoy the game back in the 50's, 60's, 70's without sabremetrics. Maybe it's because we know there's more to the game than just "runs"
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Old 02-20-2020, 11:34 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenoser View Post
Update the game to modern times, by all means. Has to be optional though, far far too many stats to pick from.

As for the rest of the post - I'm one of those "old folks". I took the time to educate myself, spent weeks over at Fangraphs reading about sabremetrics, bought and read a couple books on it.

I still like the old stats, I don't care if they don't tell me about "runs". I know runs win games. I also know there's a whole lot more to baseball than runs.

The "proper way to view stats"? Please. There's many ways to view the stats, no one being more proper than another.

If it drives you crazy, don't listen. You're going to have to suck it up for a while yet college boy, us "old folks who don't know any better" aren't going away for about another 20 - 30 years.

I honestly wonder how us "old folks" managed to understand and enjoy the game back in the 50's, 60's, 70's without sabremetrics. Maybe it's because we know there's more to the game than just "runs"
Agree with so much of this, even though I am a long-time Bill James fan and love the analytical advancements that have been made over the last 30+ years in how we look at the game.
I don't believe in an either/or approach. To say that there are stats that have better predictive value than others, or are more aligned with actual wins for a baseball team, does not have to be equivalent to saying that all traditional stats are rubbish and that we shouldn't look at them. And we need to realize that what might be perceived as rubbish in the present context wasn't necessarily as meaningless in other historical baseball contexts. For example, pitcher wins. Less and less important now, and for good reason. And never a perfect measure, by any means. But in an era when most starters pitched complete games and run scoring was low, couldn't it be true that it was a less flawed metric in that context?

So, most importantly, my main point is that this is a game. It's for fun. To the extent that it can be intellectually stimulating and educational, I think for most of us it just becomes that much more fun. But enjoyment is the key, and one doesn't have to become advanced metrics proficient to still have fun with the game. And if fun for one person is replaying the 1950's and ignoring WAR and FIP, etc, which didn't exist then, while focusing instead on batting average and RBI's and pitcher wins, well, isn't that a completely understandable way to play? I think it would be silly for us to ridicule someone for having fun with OOTP in this way, which might not conform to our current understanding of what the "best" approach is, but does conform to the general understanding of the game at that time.

And I just want to clarify, on the whole I fully endorse what the OP said here. And I think he (sorry, for the gender assumption) was careful to say that he wasn't advocating getting rid of the traditional stats in the game.
But one of the many great things about OOTP is how customizable it is, how it can be a great many things to a great many people. So I also agree that an emphasis needs to be placed on allowing these differences of choice regarding what stats are primary, particularly in historical contexts.
(On a personal level, this is something I struggle with a bit in my primary fictional save. Given that it started in the mid-60's and is now moving into the late-70's it didn't make sense for me to not pay some attention (and report in the threads shown below in my signature) to traditional stats. At the same time, my own approach to management very much includes a good deal of attention to modern metrics. Again, for me it is about balance. My own personal conception of balance, given the context of when historically the league is set but also the context of what I know existing in a much later time.)
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Old 02-20-2020, 12:04 PM   #6
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I suppose I should clarify, as it seems I might not have been clear.

I am not asking to remove all the traditional stats from the game. I just think some of the stats that are on the second/third/fourth page of stats should be switched to the first so that it is easier to quickly access when looking at many players, and vice versa. For example, if you were to switch two stats around, RBIs and wRC+ would be a good choice.

I agree, Sweed, that making anything optional or editable would be ideal because then it can be set to how we like. I understand the view that historical might seem a bit weird with modern analytics, but those stats are already in the game. They're just a hassle to get to. And again, I'm not asking to remove traditional stats, but just move some things around, so hopefully people playing historical wouldn't be affected much. :]

Yeah, Bluenoser. Which stats to move around could certainly be discussed. I'm not really asking to add any stats to the game at all; most stats that are particularly relevant are already in the game. Things like O-Swing%, Z-Swing%, O-Contact%, and Z-Contact%, while very important in real life, wouldn't make much sense in OOTP. So it's more about moving around than strictly adding. I'm glad we can agree on updating some displays.

Obviously at this point we're moving away from the main goal of the thread, but I think it is an interesting discussion:

Of course simply having fun and enjoying the beauty of baseball matters, but when it comes to statistics, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. Everything boils down to scoring and preventing runs. The traditional stats do correlate at varying degrees to runs, but not anywhere near as much as people think. You can look at whatever stats you want and interpret them however you want, and you are totally allowed to do that, but there is definitely a correct and incorrect way to view them. If there wasn't, WAR wouldn't make sense as a stat because it would be way too subjective.

I think it's awesome that you took the time to educate yourself on sabermetrics. I've certainly spent way too much time reading FanGraphs myself. When I said "older folks," I wasn't really referring strictly to people who are old, but rather people who shun modern analytics. These people tend to be on the older side, but there are certainly many people my own age who are like this as well. So yes, I know those older people aren't going to go away for a while, but neither will the younger people if they have the same view.

Yes, it does drive me crazy. It doesn't make me mad or angry though, but rather sad because these people are uneducated (this applies to all sports, not just baseball). These people then get angry when a team makes a move or signs/doesn't sign a player, because they think a certain player is good/bad (because they only had x RBIs for example) when in reality said player isn't the quality they think. People get all worked up and upset about teams and players, and if they knew better (which isn't always there fault), they might not do so. People cause themselves unnecessary stress because they don't know better. I obviously ignore it and suck it up as you say, but that doesn't make it any less sad.

Obviously you can still enjoy baseball without being caught up with sabermetrics. You can watch baseball and play OOTP however you want. I'm not always watching baseball with a super analytical view. Sometimes I just like to watch. There is nothing wrong with that. One just has to do so with the understanding that some common traditional stats are not as telling as they realize. :]

EDIT: I just saw BirdWatcher posted as well while I was typing, so I'll read and reply to that in just a bit. :]

Last edited by Aaron's Aron; 02-20-2020 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 02-20-2020, 12:20 PM   #7
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I think you've basically addressed all my points as well.

My quibble would just be with statements like "but there is definitely a correct and incorrect way to view them", and "but rather sad because these people are uneducated (this applies to all sports, not just baseball)."

Even within the sabermetrics community there are disagreements about what the correct and incorrect way is to view stats and prevailing wisdom changes over time even among the advanced metrics crowd. I would just caution that in addressing these issues with this highly intelligent and baseball knowledgeable crowd, it might be good to avoid using phrases that sound condescending and that might create the impression that you believe the science is settled and static with regards to the sport of baseball.
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Old 02-20-2020, 12:55 PM   #8
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That's the difference between you and me - your idea of fun is crunching numbers.

My idea of fun is cheering my team and players on, jumping for joy when they do well; getting upset at them when they don't do well.

Emotion - did they teach you anything about that in analytics? It's a huge part of being a fan. It's actually fun too because you get to laugh at yourself after. More emotion, see?


What's fun for a sabremetrician (is that even a word) - player x is worth 1/2 run per 9 innings.

What's fun for me - watching player x step up to the plate, take his hacks, and maybe hit a long single that he stretches into a double. Does a double constitute 1/2 a run?


Like I said, I'm all for the suggestion, as long as it's implemented properly so we can choose the stats we like, and not what sabremetrics "tells" us we should.

No disrespect, but I'll stick with my idea of fun tks.

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Old 02-20-2020, 01:22 PM   #9
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My main point of the thread was to simply say that it would be nice if sabermetrics could be included in more easily seen and accessible places. It seems we all agree on that being a good thing and these areas being customizable would be ideal. I really wasn't trying to start some deeper discussion about sabermetrics vs traditional stats. I apologize that we've kind of diverged into that discussion and if I upset anyone.

But yes, as BirdWatcher said, I am not advocating for the removal of traditional stats at all. They do have some value and do provide information on a player. They just aren't the be-all end-all. To keep coming back to RBIs because it is an easy example: it provides little correlation to runs, where as OBP actually is pretty useful in context.

I still look at some traditional stats with the understanding that they are not all telling. If you want to only look at traditional stats, that is perfectly fine and you are welcome to do so. As BirdWatcher said again, OOTP is all about having fun and I encourage anyone to play the game the way they want to play. I'm not trying to take the fun out of it for anyone, but simply add some avenues to educate people a bit and add some more convenience for sabermetric people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdWatcher View Post
My quibble would just be with statements like "but there is definitely a correct and incorrect way to view them", and "but rather sad because these people are uneducated (this applies to all sports, not just baseball)."

Even within the sabermetrics community there are disagreements about what the correct and incorrect way is to view stats and prevailing wisdom changes over time even among the advanced metrics crowd. I would just caution that in addressing these issues with this highly intelligent and baseball knowledgeable crowd, it might be good to avoid using phrases that sound condescending and that might create the impression that you believe the science is settled and static with regards to the sport of baseball.
To clarify these statements:

Once we moved from the actual premise of the thread and more to the "philosophical" debate about sabermetrics vs traditional, I have not meant to come across as condescending to anyone at all, so I apologize if that is how it came across. I rather intended to be more informative.

I agree you can certainly quibble over details about how exactly to value each statistic, and this is why WAR at FanGraphs and Baseball-Reference is different. I more mean the idea of viewing stats in the context of AVG/HR/RBI is how you should view a player's statline vs sabermetrics. One is objectively better than the other. But yes, I do agree you could debate over the exact value of certain stats to a degree. Of course our views will change a bit as time goes on and research continues, but that doesn't necessarily mean that sabermetric stats aren't the best stats available to us right now.

In regards to people being less educated, I don't mean that in an offensive way. For example, I am not a huge football fan, but I enjoy watching the Bengals. I know most of the rules and can follow a game easily enough, but I don't know much about football statistics (I can read a traditional box score though). Because of this, I don't know who most of the better players are or even who most of the players on the team are. I am pretty uneducated when it comes to football, and I am aware of this. I don't try to rip on teams or players for making bad decisions, trades, signings, etc. because I am aware I don't actually fully understand how good these players are. That's okay though because I can still enjoy the game and have fun. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as I understand I don't know much about football and don't make incorrect comments about stuff based on poor knowledge/data.

It is fine if people want to enjoy baseball without being fully educated about sabermetrics. It is all for the better to have more fans of the game! I just think some people (not necessarily on these forums, but just in the world in general) think they know what is right and make a lot of critical comments, when in fact they don't. It is fine if you don't, just be aware that you don't. That's all I mean. Because the public has been trained in traditional stats, and most things the average fan views in regards to baseball use traditional stats, it makes it hard for them to realize they have more to learn and in fact don't know everything. I'm not trying to be condescending, because it can be hard to know what you don't know, if that makes sense. And again, this applies to everything in the world, not just baseball.

I hope that clarifies what I meant by those comments. I'm not trying to rip on anybody, and I think people should enjoy the game however they want as long as they know what they do and don't know. The more fans of baseball the better! :]

EDIT: Dang it Bluenoser posted while I was writing this post. I'll respond to that one again in a bit too lol.

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Old 02-21-2020, 01:40 PM   #10
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I don't have much time, so I'll keep it quick.

Bluenoser, I do enjoy crunching numbers, but I also enjoy simply watching the beauty of baseball. You crunch numbers with traditional stats too, it's just different numbers than sabermetrics, so I'm not too sure why that matters. But yeah, I agree with the idea of enjoying the emotions and fun of a game!

Also I know your question was rhetorical, but a double is worth .74 runs above the average plate appearance (this number changes slightly from year to year).

I'm glad we were able to have a friendly debate. :]

Also, the OOTP development team is being cheeky over here. I just saw the stream and all the things we were discussing are customizable, which is fantastic. Thank you to the team for doing that, and I suppose my original post is a bit unnecessary now! This is great to hear for sabermetric people such as myself and traditionalists, so everyone wins! I hope everyone has fun playing OOTP 21 their own way!
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Old 02-21-2020, 02:28 PM   #11
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We'll demo it a little more how it works on Monday, but basically all the stats that show up on player pages and lists are way more customizable, so if you want to see wipe ERA from every page, you can do that. Or if you want to hide WAR from profile pages, you can do that too.
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Old 02-21-2020, 08:08 PM   #12
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Yikes this thread. I am a stats guy, and no my idea of fun in baseball is not watching a guy getting a hit and saying to myself "he just contributed x runs to the team!" jesus, we're still fans who love to see our teams win. i experienced the same excitement when DJ LeMahieu hit his HR in the top of the 9th in Game 6 of the ALCS this year and experienced the same heartbreak when Altuve hit the walk off home run as the rest of the fan base. saying that statheads idea of excitement is to just crunch the numbers and say "player x is worth 1/2 run per 9 innings" is ignorant.

that being said, all I want is xFIP and SIERA in this game. I'd really to like to have a replica of the FanGraphs player pages for every single player, but I'll take what I can get (and I doubt that xFIP/SIERA will be in this game, which is a huge disappointment). My dream for OOTP is that I can have every major stat that is available in public circles (including all of the Statcast stats) and use that info to evaluate players because the reason I play OOTP is because I love team building and player valuation, and OOTP does this better than any other sports game. I'd rather have an expanded array of stats to help me make decisions than any improvements in 3D or a ballpark creator. That's just me, and I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but we all play the game a different way.
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Old 02-21-2020, 08:24 PM   #13
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Quote:
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We'll demo it a little more how it works on Monday, but basically all the stats that show up on player pages and lists are way more customizable, so if you want to see wipe ERA from every page, you can do that. Or if you want to hide WAR from profile pages, you can do that too.
This might do it for me. I'd like to see a more traditional set of stats without having to sort through all of the xFIP and SIERA stuff (no offense, wallewalls).
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