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Earlier versions of OOTP: New to the game? A place for all new Out of the Park Baseball fans to ask questions about the game.

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Old 02-15-2013, 03:09 PM   #1
zerozero31
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On Pitchers and Fielding ...

As my journey into the amazing world of baseball continues, there's two things that still confuse me about the game, I'm hoping someone could clear it up (and remember, I am a n00b)

Pitchers
I understand that pitching is a pretty arduous job that can injure players if they're not looked after properly. I'm guessing that this is the reason why you have 5 starters and a raft of relievers and closers to finish the games - this gives your pitchers time to recover between games, right?

But what I can't seem to get my head around is why teams don't get the 5 best starting pitchers in the league and fill out the lineup that way. After all, this is what happens in soccer - you get the best that money can buy.

It seems that teams have one, maybe two 'star' pitchers, and the rest of the starting lineup is nothing more than ever decreasing circles of talent. It's as if teams are happy enough to fill out the bottom half of the lineup with what would appear to be inferior players.

So:

- why not buy the best pitchers in the league?
- what would be the difference be if you put, say, Justin Verlander first, or fifth in the lineup?
- Why put star pitchers in first? Do they do this with one eye on the schedule, knowing that a star pitchers is likely to face another star pitcher?

"His fielding does not matter"
This line from the film Moneyball fascinates me. In OOTP13, when scouting I actually focus quite heavily on the fielding abilities, looking for the proverbial all-rounder. Coming as I do from a soccer world where fielding (in my interpretation: the defensive abilities of each player) is a very important part of the job, this perhaps explains that mentality.

Right now, in my OOTP13 game as the Mets, I've got Lucas Duda absolutely ripping the rest of the team to shreds. He's leading in pretty much every category, and even his fielding is not that bad, yet not one of his fielding ratings are above 8. Both his LF and RF rating is 5, values that would have me overlook him pretty quickly if I was scouting him.

So, just how much does fielding matter? Is is something you look for when scouting players and putting them in position on the field? Or are his batting abilities more important?

Ow, and one more thing: does anyone use the RC (runs created) stat, and if so, how (un)important a stat do you reckon it is? To me it's the baseball equivalent of soccers 'goals scored per season'.

Thanks for reading. I cannot wait for the regular season to start - my first complete season as a baseball junky! Go ORIOLES!

Last edited by zerozero31; 02-15-2013 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:44 PM   #2
BIG17EASY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerozero31 View Post
As my journey into the amazing world of baseball continues, there's two things that still confuse me about the game, I'm hoping someone could clear it up (and remember, I am a n00b)

Pitchers
I understand that pitching is a pretty arduous job that can injure players if they're not looked after properly. I'm guessing that this is the reason why you have 5 starters and a raft of relievers and closers to finish the games - this gives your pitchers time to recover between games, right?

But what I can't seem to get my head around is why teams don't get the 5 best starting pitchers in the league and fill out the lineup that way. After all, this is what happens in soccer - you get the best that money can buy.

It seems that teams have one, maybe two 'star' pitchers, and the rest of the starting lineup is nothing more than ever decreasing circles of talent. It's as if teams are happy enough to fill out the bottom half of the lineup with what would appear to be inferior players.

So:

- why not buy the best pitchers in the league?
- what would be the difference be if you put, say, Justin Verlander first, or fifth in the lineup?
- Why put star pitchers in first? Do they do this with one eye on the schedule, knowing that a star pitchers is likely to face another star pitcher?

"His fielding does not matter"
This line from the film Moneyball fascinates me. In OOTP13, when scouting I actually focus quite heavily on the fielding abilities, looking for the proverbial all-rounder. Coming as I do from a soccer world where fielding (in my interpretation: the defensive abilities of each player) is a very important part of the job, this perhaps explains that mentality.

Right now, in my OOTP13 game as the Mets, I've got Lucas Duda absolutely ripping the rest of the team to shreds. He's leading in pretty much every category, and even his fielding is not that bad, yet not one of his fielding ratings are above 8. Both his LF and RF rating is 5, values that would have me overlook him pretty quickly if I was scouting him.

So, just how much does fielding matter? Is is something you look for when scouting players and putting them in position on the field? Or are his batting abilities more important?

Ow, and one more thing: does anyone use the RC (runs created) stat, and if so, how (un)important a stat do you reckon it is? To me it's the baseball equivalent of soccers 'goals scored per season'.

Thanks for reading. I cannot wait for the regular season to start - my first complete season as a baseball junky! Go ORIOLES!
To answer your question about pitching, baseball financials do not work the same as soccer. There's no transfer window where teams essentially buy and sell players. I'm sure every team in MLB would say they'd love to have the five best pitchers in baseball. The issue is that acquiring them is often next to impossible because the teams that control those pitchers often are not interested in trading them. And with pitching becoming increasingly important, teams are signing their star pitchers to extensions before they become free agents, so the opportunity to acquire top pitching has become rare.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:52 PM   #3
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A lot of what you're asking is going to be personal opinion, but here's my take:
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerozero31 View Post
I understand that pitching is a pretty arduous job that can injure players if they're not looked after properly. I'm guessing that this is the reason why you have 5 starters and a raft of relievers and closers to finish the games - this gives your pitchers time to recover between games, right?
Pitchers get tired when they throw the ball. The more pitches you throw in a game, the longer it's going to take you to recover. In modern baseball, starting pitchers typically get 4 days off to recover from pitching a full game. Relievers are there because starters get tired and lose effectiveness throughout the course of a game. The physics of a pitched ball are such that small changes in mechanics can turn a previously unhittable pitch into something that hitters can send into the bleachers. As pitchers tire, their mechanics wear down. Hitters also key off of pitcher mechanics, so the more times a batter faces a pitcher in a single game, the better they do against them. Putting a new pitcher in there, who has even slightly different mechanics and a different arsenal of pitches can throw hitters off. Lastly, some pitchers are more inconsistent than others. Again, this goes back to the physics of a pitched ball being rather specific. Pitchers have better or worse stuff on different days for reasons that are impossible to pin down, but everyone acknowledges that it happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerozero31 View Post
But what I can't seem to get my head around is why teams don't get the 5 best starting pitchers in the league and fill out the lineup that way. After all, this is what happens in soccer - you get the best that money can buy.

It seems that teams have one, maybe two 'star' pitchers, and the rest of the starting lineup is nothing more than ever decreasing circles of talent. It's as if teams are happy enough to fill out the bottom half of the lineup with what would appear to be inferior players.
Teams DO try to get the best pitchers they can buy. The problem is other teams also are trying to do this and not willing to give up their guys. There's no transfer concept in baseball, either. There are a number of financial concerns. Top pitchers are very expensive. Younger talent is cheap and under team control for the first 6 years of their stay in MLB. Ultimately, though, the top players are too expensive for the top teams to hoard, and the top players don't always stay the top players. If you look at what the Yankees have done over the past two decades, you can get a sense for how teams try to do this and how often it does or doesn't work out. Ultimately, the Yankees can't force the Mariners to trade them Felix Hernandez, or the Dodgers to trade them Clayton Kershaw. The cost-benefit ratio has to be balanced with hitting/fielding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerozero31 View Post
- what would be the difference be if you put, say, Justin Verlander first, or fifth in the lineup?
- Why put star pitchers in first? Do they do this with one eye on the schedule, knowing that a star pitchers is likely to face another star pitcher?
The pitching term is rotation. Lineup is where your hitters go.
The first starter typically starts against the other team's top starter, but more importantly, they usually start more games. Baseball is played almost every day, but there are enough off days and rain-outs that certain days get skipped. If you have an off day, you can bump up your top starters to pitch more often and pass over your 4th or 5th starter on occasion, thus getting your better pitchers on the field more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerozero31 View Post
"His fielding does not matter"
This line from the film Moneyball fascinates me. In OOTP13, when scouting I actually focus quite heavily on the fielding abilities, looking for the proverbial all-rounder. Coming as I do from a soccer world where fielding (in my interpretation: the defensive abilities of each player) is a very important part of the job, this perhaps explains that mentality.
The value of a fielder is directly correllated to what position he plays. Each position has unique skills and requirements that make it more or less valuable. People have even ranked them on a scale of most difficult to least difficult, and it's common for aging players to move down the scale while very rare for anyone to move up it.
C-SS-2B-CF-3B-RF-LF-1B
Beane's comment referred to a guy who was going to play first base. He would not have made that comment about a catcher or shortstop. That said, it is hyperbole intended to point out that he cared a lot more about Hatteberg's hitting than his ability to play first base.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerozero31 View Post
Right now, in my OOTP13 game as the Mets, I've got Lucas Duda absolutely ripping the rest of the team to shreds. He's leading in pretty much every category, and even his fielding is not that bad, yet not one of his fielding ratings are above 8. Both his LF and RF rating is 5, values that would have me overlook him pretty quickly if I was scouting him.
Corner outfielders and first basemen have some impact on the game defensively, but it's generally small compared to the amount of impact an elite hitter can have. Again, that's not true for catchers and shortstops, where elite defense with a weak bat can be as valuable as an elite bat with weak defense (note that pitchers may not agree!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerozero31 View Post
So, just how much does fielding matter? Is is something you look for when scouting players and putting them in position on the field? Or are his batting abilities more important?
I have a minimum level of offensive production I want to get out of all my hitters no matter what position they play. I also have a minimum level of defensive production I want to get out of my fielders, and that changes depending on what position they play. I expect to have very good fielders up the middle (SS, 2B, CF), and don't care much about corner outfielders or first basemen. If I have two guys with similar bats, I'll take the better fielder, though, or will move my lousy fielder to DH. One of my favorite things about baseball is how the different defensive requirements for each position make it so you have to consider the offensive trade-off at each position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerozero31 View Post
Ow, and one more thing: does anyone use the RC (runs created) stat, and if so, how (un)important a stat do you reckon it is? To me it's the baseball equivalent of soccers 'goals scored per season'.
I don't use RC much. I prefer VORP, which is Value Over Replacement Player and is also a measure of runs. VORP is a little more instructive to me as it compares a player to his peers so you can get a relative sense of worth. For a quick and dirty, I'll look at OPS or OPS+ (OPS relative to league).
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:53 PM   #4
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Great questions. Here is my take.

Unlike Soccer you can't just buy players. To acquire talent a team must draft and develop, trade for it and/or find overlooked talent that other team discard. When you trade you must give up value back so it's not feasible to acquire all of the best pitchers. Pitchers are notoriously injury prone. Having the best pitchers at market value contracts could be a financial disaster.

Teams do fairly extensive research to find "value" in lesser players so they can afford to pay the best players more money.

Verlander's slot in the rotation only matters because you want your best pitcher to get the most starts. Teams are very concerned about overworking high priced pitchers so they rarely step outside the standard 5 pitcher rotation.

Rotations do get managed. A lesser team is more likely to avoid putting their best pitcher in against the team that has its best of say 3 top flight pitchers. Also remember that teams play almost every day but often get different days off so rotations don't always match 1 vs 1 ....

Defense

Defense does matter but again one must balance available talent vs price. A talent rich team can make decisions vs a poor team taking what it can get. In baseball defense up the middle is most critical. So catcher, 2B, SS, and CF are positions where a team may take defense over offense. However a superior offensive player can still beat that paradigm. In LF RF 3B and 1B teams will often take offense over defense. When you get a superior offensive and defensive player at these positions it is a bonus.

So when you look at individual players to see how they fit you must look at all 8 positions. You don't want to have 3 bad OF or both your SS and 2B bad but in the right spot go for the bat.

I have nothing on RC.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:22 PM   #5
zerozero31
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Thanks to all for taking the time in those detailed answers!

"The pitching term is rotation. Lineup is where your hitters go"

oh, that's embarrassing (facepalm)
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