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Old 12-25-2003, 04:02 PM   #41
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Dean;
Appreciate your posting the middleweights. I added them all. However, Thompson's punches only total 90.5. Could you check the numbers, please? Thanks.

P.S.: Keep them coming, guys!
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Old 12-25-2003, 10:13 PM   #42
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If you check out * retired HW- Henry Cooper * you will find .25 needs to be taken of his total punches -- take it off his 2pt punches.
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Old 12-26-2003, 12:14 AM   #43
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Well, I decided on maybe a little different way of testing my ratings of Gerhard Zech that's going to take a little more time then just running a lot of quick simulations. I decided I'd retrace Zech's entire career by rating the different fighters he actually faced in his career and do a replay of this career that way. Most of these fighters I'm going to create will be the 1 Rating type that will help to increase my stable of lesser fighters like that. I decided that if I'm going to replay him to test Zech's ratings, instead of just using some "generic" fighter or some 1's already rating in the data base, it would be interesting to rate the actual fighters. For each fight then I'll set Zech and his opponant at the career stage they are at. These "extra" fighters I'm rating for this I start out just copying someone already in the data base who's a 1 and then do some adjusting as I think.

Zech's first fight.... 1959-12-12 Stuttgart, Germany against....

Hans Peter Drabes-1 Overall Rating
Nationality-Germany
b.
d.
Career, 1956-59
BoxRec. 028301
Record 3 wins / 7 losses / 1 draws / 0 KO
Needless to say not much of a career. Drabes was KO'd in 6 by Albert Westphal in 56 and lost by decision his 4 round fight with Zech in 59 which turned out to be his last fight according to boxrec.

Control vs Boxer--4
Control vs Slugger--4
Hitting power--1
Chin vs knockdown--5
Chin vs knockout--3
Recovery--2
Cuts--2
Absorb punishment--2
Killer instinct--4
Aggressiveness--6
Endurance--6
Defense--4
Fast starter--2
Fight on ropes--3

Draw power--1
Conditioning--3
Intellect--4
Proficiency--10

Fight inside--2
Outside--2
Cover up--2
Go for KO--0
Clinching--72

Style--Boxer
Fouls--Seldom

Punches 2-pt. 3-pt.
Jabs 20.0 0.0
Hooks 20.0 0.0
Crosses 20.0 0.0
Combinations 20.0 0.0
Uppercuts 20.0 0.0

Punching--36
Counterpunching--34
Missed--64

In my replay of the fight I set Zech at Beginning for his career stage and set Drabes at "End". The results, a 4 round UD win for Zech. In real life he won a 4 round decision.


Zech's 2nd Fight....1960-01-09 Stuttgart, Germany against....

Bobby Warmbrunn-1 Overall Rating
Nationality-Germany
b. 1924-10-15
d.
Career, 1947-63
BoxRec. 028302
Record 15 wins / 50 losses / 3 draws / 6 KO
A fairly long career against nobodys with terrible results over all for Warmbrunn. He lost decisions to an Arno Kolblin(46-21-9 at the time) adn Richard Vogt(53-6-9 at the time). Probably the best opponants as far as at least impressive looking records. He did fight Franco Cavicchi a couple times being KO'd early in both fights. He lost by TKO in the first to Dick Richardson in 1955. He actually fought Zech 3 times in 1960 which were 3 of Zech's first 6 fights.

Control vs Boxer--3
Control vs Slugger--4
Hitting power--1
Chin vs knockdown--6
Chin vs knockout--5
Recovery--4
Cuts--2
Absorb punishment--3
Killer instinct--2
Aggressiveness--4
Endurance--6
Defense--4
Fast starter--3
Fight on ropes--3

Draw power--1
Conditioning--3
Intellect--3
Proficiency--10

Fight inside--2
Outside--2
Cover up--2
Go for KO--0
Clinching--72

Style--Boxer
Fouls--Seldom

Punches 2-pt. 3-pt.
Jabs 20.0 0.0
Hooks 20.0 0.0
Crosses 20.0 0.0
Combinations 20.0 0.0
Uppercuts 20.0 0.0

Punching--32
Counterpunching--30
Missed--64

In my refight, Zech put Warmbrunn down in the 2nd for an 8 count and then Zech won by TKO at 2:02 in the 4th round of the scheduled 4 round fight. In real life, Zech won a 4 round decision.

I've got about 5 more of Zech's next opponents rated so over the next couple days maybe I'll get a few more fights done and post the ratings of the fighters and the results. I'm finding this a fun and interesting replay. I'm finding some interesting European fighters looking through thes BoxRec files on these guys.

Rocco
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Old 12-26-2003, 01:41 AM   #44
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This is a great replay! Keep it coming.
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Old 12-26-2003, 06:48 AM   #45
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Cyclone Johnny Thompson

Sorry guys,
I made a mistake on his 2 point combination punches which should have read 21 (they should now add to 100).

Glad everybody found a use for them, I will be going over the missing Welter and Lightweight champs next.

rgds
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Old 12-26-2003, 06:55 AM   #46
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Boxing Illustrated Xmas present.

I forgot to say my wife bought me all the issues of boxing illustrated from 1960 to 1962 as a xmas present.

The mags are a mine of information for that era and I will be rating fighters based on the extra info soon.

Just finished a great article on a heavyweight called Curley Lee who i had not previously heard of. The article said Lee a great young prospect may of been ruined by a terrible KO loss in the tenth round to Cleveland Williams!

anyway back to the mimnce pies and old boxing mags!

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Old 12-26-2003, 10:37 AM   #47
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Curley Lee Chapman

Ok, after studying the article and doing a bit more research here is Curley Lee Chapman

Curley Lee Chapman
Heavyweight USA
Born 1937
Career 1955-61

CFB/S 9/8
HP 7
CKD 4
CKO 4
REC 2
CUTS 1
AP 2
KI 8
AGG 8
END 8
DEF +4
FS 1
FR 3
DP 2
COND 2
INT 6
PL 38
CP 38
PM 64
CL 73
STYLE SLUGGER
FOUL SELDOM
FI 2
FO 1
CU 1
KO 3
JAB 13/4.75
HOOK 22.5/11
CROSS 14.75/2.75
COMB 7.5/2.25
UPP 18.5/3.25

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Old 12-26-2003, 12:14 PM   #48
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GerhardZech's 3rd fight.... 1960-02-13 Stuttgart, Germany against....

Robert Eugene-1 Overall Rating
Nationality-Belgium
b.
d.
Career, 1946-60
BoxRec. 037142
Record 10 wins / 42 losses / 4 draws / 5 KO
Eugene fought and lost for the Belgium HW Title in 1948 very early in his career. Later in 1952 he lost another chance at the Belium title. Then in 1954 he defeated a Piet Wilde in the 1st round on a KO for the Belgium HW Title. He defended that title twice in 1955 and 56 against an Al Bernard both times. During that period he lost 2 fights to Franco Cavicchi and once each to Brian London and Dick Richardson. In July 1956 he lost the Belgium title to Alain Cherville. That loss was part of a 0-16-1 string that marked the end of his career. Part of those 16 losses included another one to Cavicchi, one to a Willi Hopner(45-8-3) and then to Zech which was his 2nd to last fight of his career.

Control vs Boxer--5
Control vs Slugger--4
Hitting power--1
Chin vs knockdown--5
Chin vs knockout--4
Recovery--4
Cuts--2
Absorb punishment--3
Killer instinct--6
Aggressiveness--6
Endurance--7
Defense--4
Fast starter--2
Fight on ropes--2

Draw power--2
Conditioning--2
Intellect--5
Proficiency--10

Fight inside--2
Outside--2
Cover up--3
Go for KO--0
Clinching--70

Style--Boxer
Fouls--Seldom

Punches 2-pt. 3-pt.
Jabs 22.75 1.0
Hooks 20.0 1.0
Crosses 18.0 1.0
Combinations 14.25 1.0
Uppercuts 20.0 1.0

Punching--32
Counterpunching--34
Missed--63

In this replay I set Zech to "Beginning" stage and Eugene I set a "End" stage of his career. In real life Zech KO'd Eugene in the 1st round. I didn't know because of the KO in boxrec if this was a 4 or 6 round scheduled fight, but I set it for 4 rounds. Didn't matter much as I couldn't believe it when Zech KO'd him at 1:25 of the 1st round!
Next fight 1960-03-05 against Bobby Warmbrunn again...
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Old 12-26-2003, 01:58 PM   #49
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Gerhard Zech's 4th fight, 1960-03-05 A scheduled 6 rounder with Bobby Warmbrunn in Ravensburg, Germany.

For this fight I adjusted Warmbrunn's Chin ratings from 6/5 down to 5/4. In real life, Warmbrunn lasted the 6 full rounds against Zech only to loose a decision and give Zech his 4 win in as many fights. In the replay Warmbrunn almost lasted the full 6, but Zech floored Warmbrunn in the 6th, the 4th time in the fight, and the referee called it at 2:00 in the 6th handing Zech a TKO finish.

Next up....Andre Wyns....who?!
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Old 12-26-2003, 02:13 PM   #50
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Interesting project, recreating the career of Gerhard Zech! Wouldn't have thought of it, myself, but it could be interesting once he gets about 10 more fights into it. Enjoying it, Rocco. Keep it going!
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Old 12-26-2003, 02:17 PM   #51
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Thanks Mark,

I am finding it interesting. What I'm enjoying is looking these fighters up in boxrec and "discovering" other fighter, especially in the European field, some of who racked up some impressive looking records at least as far as W's and L's.

Rocco
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Old 12-26-2003, 02:42 PM   #52
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GerhardZech's 5th fight.... 1960-04-08 Berlin, Germany against....

Andre Wyns-1 Overall Rating
Nationality-Belgium
b.
d.
Career, 1954-69
BoxRec. 022875
Record 1 wins / 28 losses / 0 draws / 0 KO
Futility should maybe be his nickname. Wyns fought and lost for the Belgium LWH title in 1955 and again in 1956. He fought once and lost in 1965 for the Belgium HW Title. His one win was an 8 round decision over an Andrien Verbrugh in 1958 whom he then lost by TKO in the 8th in 65 in that HW title fight. Wyns actually fought a few notable Europeans including Karl Mildenberger, Gerhard Zech, Dante Cane, Peter Weiland, Jurgen Blin(twice) and Bepi Ros.

Control vs Boxer--4
Control vs Slugger--4
Hitting power--1
Chin vs knockdown--5
Chin vs knockout--4
Recovery--4
Cuts--3
Absorb punishment--3
Killer instinct--2
Aggressiveness--6
Endurance--6
Defense--4
Fast starter--2
Fight on ropes--3

Draw power--2
Conditioning--2
Intellect--1
Proficiency--10

Fight inside--1
Outside--2
Cover up--2
Go for KO--0
Clinching--70

Style--Boxer
Fouls--Seldom

Punches 2-pt. 3-pt.
Jabs 22.25 1.0
Hooks 21.50 0.0
Crosses 19.50 0.0
Combinations 14.25 2.0
Uppercuts 19.5 0.0

Punching--32
Counterpunching--32
Missed--63

Wyns went about 5-1/2 rounds with Zech before Gerhard finally floored him for a 9 count with about 1/2 minute to go in the 6th and final round. Wyns finished it out, but Zech won by UD to go to 5-0. In real life this one also went the 6 rounds with Gerhard winning by decision.
Next fight 1960-09-24 against Bobby Warmbrunn again!...
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Old 12-26-2003, 02:47 PM   #53
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GerhardZech's 6th fight.... 1960-09-24 Ravensburg, Germany against....

Bobby Warmbrunn for a 3rd and final time! This is Warmburnns 3rd straight fight against Zech in as many fights in 1960. This was again a 6 round scheduled fight. In the real thing Warmbrunn took Zech the full 6 rounds with Zech winning by decision. In my replay, Warmbrunn again took the fight into the 6th round when Zech like with Wyns in his last fight finally managed to put Warmbrunn to the canvas. Warmbrunn got up in 8 though and finished the fight. Zech winning by UD.

So far after 6 fights.....
Actual record 6-0-0-1KO Replay 6-0-0-3KO
Actual number of rounds 27 Replay 27
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Old 12-26-2003, 05:18 PM   #54
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I agree with Vistaman. This is offbeat all right, but pretty cool nonetheless. You've started exploring a real niche in boxing history. Kinda like collecting blue Tasmanian 2 penny stamps, if such things exist.

Enjoy.

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Old 12-27-2003, 03:23 PM   #55
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Gerhard Zech's 7th fight.... 1960-10-07 Berlin, Germany against....

Werner Walloschek-1 Overall Rating
Nationality- Germnay
b. 1930-03-07
d.
Career, 1958-61
BoxRec. 028304
Record 7 wins / 4 losses / 3 draws / 3 KO
In the first 2 years of his career Walloschek went 7-0-3-3KO's. That included 1 win over Belgium Robert Eugene. Werner's career then nosedived to a sudden ending as he lost his next 4 bouts, all by KO's, the first 2 in 4 rounds including his fight with Zech. The last 2 Ko's were 1st rounders. The last KO was to an up and coming Italian HW Franco DePiccoli.

Control vs Boxer--3
Control vs Slugger--3
Hitting power--3
Chin vs knockdown--3
Chin vs knockout--2
Recovery--2
Cuts--2
Absorb punishment--2
Killer instinct--5
Aggressiveness--6
Endurance--6
Defense--4
Fast starter--2
Fight on ropes--3

Draw power--1
Conditioning--3
Intellect--4
Proficiency--10

Fight inside--2
Outside--1
Cover up--3
Go for KO--1
Clinching--70

Style--Slugger
Fouls--Seldom

Punches 2-pt. 3-pt.
Jabs 18.25 1.25
Hooks 17.50 2.25
Crosses 15.00 2.75
Combinations 22.75 1.00
Uppercuts 17.25 2.00

Punching--36
Counterpunching--34
Missed--63

I set Walloschek to Pre Prime. Zech is still at the Beginning of his career. This one surprised me. In real life Zech KO'd Werner in the 4th round. In my replay here Werner went the distance in a 6 round UD for Zech
Next fight 1960-11-26 against a Frenchman, Francois Kania...
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Old 12-27-2003, 03:33 PM   #56
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Gerhard Zech's 8th fight.... 1960-11-26 Frankfurt, Germany against....

Francois Kania-1 Overall Rating
Nationality- France
b. 1930-03-07
d.
Career, 1956-60
BoxRec. 028305
Record 3 wins / 9 losses / 0 draws / 1 KO
Kania lost his first 3 bouts, then won 3 then lost his last 6 fights. Last 2 fights of his career were 3rd and 5th round KO's by Karl Mildenberger and Gerhard Zech respectively in 1960.

Control vs Boxer--3
Control vs Slugger--3
Hitting power--0
Chin vs knockdown--5
Chin vs knockout--3
Recovery--2
Cuts--2
Absorb punishment--2
Killer instinct--2
Aggressiveness--5
Endurance--7
Defense--4
Fast starter--3
Fight on ropes--3

Draw power--1
Conditioning--2
Intellect--3
Proficiency--10

Fight inside--2
Outside--2
Cover up--1
Go for KO--1
Clinching--71

Style--Slugger
Fouls--Seldom

Punches 2-pt. 3-pt.
Jabs 20.0 0.0
Hooks 20.0 0.0
Crosses 20.0 0.0
Combinations 20.0 0.0
Uppercuts 20.0 0.0

Punching--34
Counterpunching--32
Missed--63

I set Kania at Beginning for career stage even though in reality it was what turned out to be the near end of his career when he fought Zech in 1960. Zech is still at Beginning. Again another surprise finish. KO'd in 5 by Zech in 1960, here in my replay, he goes the distance though Zech ends with his 8th win, a 6 round UD.
Next fight 1960-12-07 against Italian Mino Bozzano and Zech travels for the first time out of Germany......
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Old 12-27-2003, 03:44 PM   #57
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I never thought I would see a Gerhard Zech career replay, but I am weirdly interested in these fights. I must say I have never heard of any of the fighters Zech has defeated so far, Bozzano rings a bell, but I am not sure why. GO GERHARD!!

Someone asked earlier if I had Shavers-Williams complete. I do, I got it from Pat Merrick, he does pretty good work, the best guy I have dealt with is Dana Smith for price and quality.
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Old 12-27-2003, 03:51 PM   #58
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Keep up the good work Rocco, very interesting indeed. The history of the sport of boxing is so huge that there are plenty of interesting "niches", and even many of the so called "obscure" fighters careers are great to read about.

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Old 12-27-2003, 03:52 PM   #59
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Gerhard Zech's 9th fight.... 1960-12-07 Sports Palace, Milan, Italy....His first outside Germany

Mino Bozzano-1 Overall Rating
Nationality- Italy
b. 1933-04-12
d.
Career, 1957--62
BoxRec. 029435
Record 31 wins / 3 losses / 0 draws / 15 KO
Mino was 25-0 thru mid 1959 including a 10 round decision against a near finished LHW great Joey Maxim, an 8th round KO win over Franco Cavicchi who was in the latter stages of his career and a 10 round decision over Joe Bygraves who also was on the downside of his career. Bozzano then in late 1950-60 lost 2 of his next 3 fights, one a 2nd round KO by Zech. Mino ran his record to 31-2 when he Oct. 1962 he went up against Sante Amonti for the Italian HW Title. Amonti KO'd Bozzano in 3 sending him into retirement.

Control vs Boxer--4
Control vs Slugger--4
Hitting power--4
Chin vs knockdown--3
Chin vs knockout--3
Recovery--3
Cuts--2
Absorb punishment--2
Killer instinct--5
Aggressiveness--6
Endurance--7
Defense--4
Fast starter--1
Fight on ropes--3

Draw power--2
Conditioning--3
Intellect--3
Proficiency--10

Fight inside--2
Outside--1
Cover up--2
Go for KO--2
Clinching--70

Style--Slugger
Fouls--Occasionally

Punches 2-pt. 3-pt.
Jabs 17.25 2.50
Hooks 12.25 5.50
Crosses 16.75 5.75
Combinations 21.25 3.50
Uppercuts 13.00 2.25

Punching--34
Counterpunching--32
Missed--63

I set Bozzano at "Prime", Zech still at "Beginning". I debated some about making Bozzano a 2 overall even though the game calculated a 1 with the ratings. But then I looked more at his career and seeing the few "names" he went up against compared to say even Zech, I said no he needed to stay at a 1.
In real life, Zech KO'd Bozzano in the 2nd round. In my replay, Bozzano lasted a little longer in the scheduled 8 rounder, going into the 5th before the fight was stopped at the 2:02 mark giving Zech a TKO victory.....
Next fight 1961-01-20 against Spaniard Jose Gonzales Sales, Zech's first opponent with some real notoriety about him.
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Old 12-27-2003, 04:13 PM   #60
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Gerhard Zech's 10th fight.... 1961-01-20 Berlin, Germany......

Mino Bozzano-2 Overall Rating
Nationality- Spain
b. 1929-03-11
d.
Career, 1950-64
BoxRec. 028307
Record 29 wins / 36 losses / 4 draws / 14 KO
Sales is Zech's first opponent of any real accomplishment in his career. Sales was the Spanish HW Title holder from Aug. 1952 to Dec. 1957. He fought against Mariano Echevarria twice in 1961 trying to regain the crown loosing both times in 12 round decisions. In his 2nd to last fight of his career he tried again for the Spanish title loosing to a Benito Canal. Sales fought a number of noteable European HW's in his career, unfortunately with mostly bad results, thus his sub .500 record and low 2 rating. Zech's first non 1 rated opponent though. Sales drew with Willi Besmanoff and then lost a decision to him. He was TKO'd in 3 by Brian London. He beat Franco Cavicchi twice. Lost an 8 round deicision to Albert Westphal, a 10 round decision to Sante Amonti and lost other fights to Joe Erskine, Zech, Karl Mildenberger, Billy Walker and Johnny Prescott.

Control vs Boxer--6
Control vs Slugger--6
Hitting power--5
Chin vs knockdown--5
Chin vs knockout--2
Recovery--2
Cuts--3
Absorb punishment--2
Killer instinct--4
Aggressiveness--7
Endurance--7
Defense--4
Fast starter--3
Fight on ropes--2

Draw power--6
Conditioning--2
Intellect--3
Proficiency--10

Fight inside--1
Outside--1
Cover up--1
Go for KO--0
Clinching--71

Style--Boxer
Fouls--Seldom

Punches 2-pt. 3-pt.
Jabs 18.00 0.00
Hooks 25.75 0.00
Crosses 16.50 0.00
Combinations 21.50 0.00
Uppercuts 18.25 0.00

Punching--36
Counterpunching--36
Missed--62

I set Sales at his Post Prime and Zech at Beginning. In real life, Sales lost a decision to Zech in an 8 round bout. In my replay, Zech KO'd Sales at the 2:42 mark of the 6th round.

This ends the Beginning stage of Zech's career. For career stages i'm using....
1-10 bouts Beginning
11-25 bouts Pre-Prime
26-50 bouts Prime
51-75 bouts Post Prime
76 + bouts End

So we'll be going into Zech's Pre Prime stage next. I'm having fun with this. As I said before It's interesting looking up all these fighters. To be honest, there's not a lot of scientific work into coming up with the ratings so if there's anything someone thinks is way off, please let me know...

As far as how Zech's Replay is tracking to real life.....

Actual Record 10W/0L/0D/4KO Replay Record 10W/0L/0D/5KO
Actual Ave Rounds 4.6 Replay Ave. Rounds 5.0
Actual Ave Rnds Stoppage 3.0 Replay Ave Rnds Stoppage 4.4
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Heavyweight Boxing, "coulda been a contender".....or Not!

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