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Old 06-21-2009, 09:01 PM   #41
hamed2
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LOL, yeah I could see Jackson icing him. Do you recall who he lost to prior to that?

Vargas lost his WBO belt by UD last Sept. to Mayweather & years ago his WBA strap to Davey Moore via a 7th round TKO in my uni.
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Old 06-22-2009, 12:41 PM   #42
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Joachin Alcine! And now, the post-prime Vargas will change trainers, fight a few tune-ups and be ready to get knocked out prime time again .
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Old 06-23-2009, 08:25 AM   #43
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Joachin Alcine! And now, the post-prime Vargas will change trainers, fight a few tune-ups and be ready to get knocked out prime time again .
LOL, good stuff Jim! I like how you run your uni - sounds similar in ways to mine.

I'm aware of 2 trainers Vargas had in real life, I think Garcia was one & want to say Danny Smith was the other.

Talking about Alcine. When Santos KO'd him in real last July, he received a title shot & my WBA champ - Sergei. Sergei knocked out Alcine in the 14th round so he's now 6-1 & hasn't fought since, just like the real Alcine.
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Old 07-07-2009, 12:05 PM   #44
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Fighters like Evander Holyfield made a living fighting Giant Heavyweights. Originally a Cruiserweight, Holyfield used the services of Mackey Shilstone, I believe, to initially put on the muscle mass?

Holyfield stood 6’ 2” with a 78” reach. He weighed around 210 (thanks to cyber-workouts in gym!)

In comparison, the big men he faced (big being defined as the combination of height, weight and reach) were:

Riddick Bowe: 6’ 5” 81” reach
Lennox Lewis: 6’ 5” 84” reach
George Foreman: 6’ 3 ½” 82” reach
Nikolay Valuev: 7’ 0” 85” reach

The popular school of thought is; the big man can use a jab and right hand to keep the smaller fighter at a distance all night long.

In the case of Nikolay Valuev, Holyfield was well past his prime in a fight some people feel he should have won.

Recently I heard an old interview from the 1960’s with Jess Willard. Jess stood approximately 6’ 6” and was the original “Giant.” In this interview he said that he was able to control fights with his straight left (jab) and his right hand.

This is very similar to the style of fighting Emanuel Steward has used in rebuilding the career of Wlad Klitschko. He also had Lennox Lewis employ a similar style later in his own career.

I guess you could label this style, “fighting big.”

In Willard’s case, Jack Dempsey’s infighting ability negated his overwhelming physical advantages in height, reach and weight. The result was a one-sided third round stoppage. Willard had a great chin and could soak up enormous amounts of punishment. He rose from 7 first round knockdowns and never hit the floor again. He was on his feet when the fight was called.

Today, there are only a handful of heavyweights that have any infighting skills to speak of. Chris Arreola has come a long way in this area. Most fighters “rest” more than they fight on the inside. Others simple tie up and hug their opponents until the referee separates them.

Some of the older Heavyweight Champions of the past would have given fighters like Bowe, Lewis and the Klitschko’s a pounding on the inside.

Ezzard Charles is a good example of a terrific infighter. However, if Charles started to absorbing too many shots from the bigger men, they could have worn him down and stopped him. A fighter like a Dempsey or a Marciano liked to glue themselves to an opponent. Their pressure and body punches would have presented a real threat to a Bowe, Lewis or the Klitschko’s.

I don’t doubt a Bowe, Lewis or the Klitschko’s could have knocked a Dempsey or a Marciano down if they caught them with a big right hand. But neither Dempsey nor Marciano were the type of fighter you could knockout with one punch.

Jess Willard may have stood 6’ 6”, but after absorbing brutal hooks to the body, the bent forward, trying to protect his body version was more like – 5’ 10”!

A good infighter and good body puncher has a nice large target in front of him when matched up with a Giant Heavyweight who likes to “fight big.”

Like Shane Mosley recently said in an interview, “A great fighter has develops a style that can adjust to and handle every other type of style.”

When trying to rate and adjust the ratings from Heavyweights from different eras, a fighter's infighting ability would then factor into the equation of how they would do - facing the "modern" big heavyweight.

Many people who don't follow boxing history think that the big Heavyweights of the past couldn't fight. They think they were all a bunch of "Primo's Carnera's." Actually, that's not true at all.

Many very good big men fell under the guns of some great infighters. Even the great Harry Wills finally went down under the smoking guns of little Sam Langford!


.

-JJ

Last edited by Jersey-Jim; 07-07-2009 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 07-07-2009, 06:45 PM   #45
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Dempsey

Dempsey was once asked how he thought he would have done against Harry Wills, the much-avoided Black Heavyweight of the era. Dempsey said the he, personally, had no qualms about fighting Wills. To paraphrase him he said "Big guys like that were made-to-order for me."
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Old 07-08-2009, 12:18 AM   #46
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Rocky Marciano said the same thing about larger fighters. In an interview, he said smaller fighters gave him more problems. He said that fighters like Walcott and Moore gave him problems because they didn't have to "punch down" at him and therefore generated more power.

He said that "punching up" helped him to generate even more power because his legs were the foundation of his punching power.

They can teach technique, which can improve a fighter's power somewhat, but they've never been able to teach power.

Mickey Walker was another fighter who loved fighting taller heavier men. He said he like to get inside and "belt their guts out."
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Old 07-11-2009, 06:49 PM   #47
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Floyd Mayweather, Jr.

Floyd Mayweather is one of the more controversial fighters in the game today. Mayweather is a slick boxer, along the lines of a Pernell Whitaker but with more power. Some have compared Mayweather to Ray Leonard, but their fighting styles are very much different. Mayweather's style, like Whitaker, wouldn't fall under the boxer puncher category. Not at Welterweight, anyway. He was more so at the lighter weights. His safety first approach, however, has become more evident as he’s risen in weight. More often than not, boxers like Floyd score knockouts as the result of accumulated punishment. This isn't to say they can't score one-punch knockouts. Even Pernell scored a one-punch goodnighter against slugger Louis Lomeli way back when.


At Jr. Lightweight, Floyd’s absorb punishment rating is a “1”. This, I feel, is a bit too high. Salvador Sanchez, a defensive, counter-punching expert, is ranked with a 2 in the Absorb Punishment category.

A 1 is the very best possible rating a fighter can have. I feel the “1” should be reserved for fighters like Jake LaMotta, Tex Cobb, Jim Jeffries, etc.

These were men who actually took unbelievable amounts of punishment, more than just once, during the course of their careers. I don’t feel that Floyd Mayweather has ever come close to those types of performances for good reason. He's not the type of fighter who can withstand that sort of punishment. No shame in that.

Fighters who can walk through punches, do so at one time or another! Fighters who cannot, use superior ring generalship, speed and defense to avoid taking punishment.

A fighter along the lines of a Whitaker or Mayweather have superior defensive skills and ring generalship which enable them to avoided getting knocked out or hurt with big punches. A fighter like Ray Leonard, Ray Robinson, even Oscar DeLaHoya were known to go to war on occasion against big punchers.

In Mayweather’s case, we’ve never seen his chin really tested. He was knocked down against Carlos Hernandez at Jr. Lightweight back in 2001. Other than that once instance, his chin has never had to absorb punches from a big puncher. Hernandez himself was not a knockout puncher, but he did have respectable power.

In Whitaker’s case, he hit the canvas in later years after his speed and reflexes began to wane. In each case, however, he was able to get up and clinch successfully until his head cleared. He didn't have the type of chin that enabled him to "walk through thunder," but it wasn't so bad that a single shot would do him in, either.

Mayweather never had the opportunity to showcase his ability against a class of fighter who occupied the Jr. Lightweight through Welterweight divisions in the 60’s, 70’s or 80’s. Mayweather didn’t have a Duran, Leonard, Pryor or Arguello against whom his overall skills could be more accurately assessed.

Without exception, the great fighters of the past invariably found themselves in life or death struggles against one or more opponents throughout their careers. A lack of such in Mayweather’s career points to the overall quality of his competition as much as it does to his overall ability. The closest he came was against Jose Luis Castillo in a fight that some thought should have been his first loss. To his credit, however, he left Castillo in the dust in their rematch.

There are cases where a pure boxer actually has the ability to soak up punishment and climb off the canvas to engage in a shootout. Willie Pep is a good example. His TKO/Absorb punishment rating is a “1” and was undoubtedly earned against one of the greatest blasters of all-time in the Featherweight division – Sandy Saddler.

Ali survived Foreman’s power shots to the body and head as well as Frazier’s. He didn’t just take punches on the arms, he took them to the head and body as well. His rating stands at a 1 which is also justifiable.

Using the same logic, we have yet to see anything from Floyd Mayweather that would warrant his ability to soak up that type of punishment thus far. Again, however, you can't fault anyone for not having an "all-time great chin." It is what it is.

As I’ve already said, I’ve tweaked his “1” Absorb Punishment rating to a “2” at Jr. Lightweight, Lightweight, Welterweight, etc.

In the area of punching power, I scaled back the 9 to an 8. Floyd’s CF’s, number of three point punches and a hitting power of 8 will produce plenty of KO’s. In comparison, Salvador Sanchez, a fighter similar to Floyd in many ways is ranked overall as a 12. Currently, Floyd stands at 14. Sanchez’s hitting power is currently ranked at 8 and he scored 32 knockouts in 44 fights against arguably better competition – which included the great Azumah Nelson (whose hitting power, by the way, stands at 7).

Did an Azumah Nelson have more power than Floyd Mayweather? You can be the judge of that!

That’ll do it for his Jr. Lightweight numbers

Again, at Lightweight, Jr. Welterweight and Welterweight, I’ve tweaked his Absorb Punishment rating from 1 to 2.

At the Jr. Lightweight level I’ve kept his defense at -6. At Lightweight, Jr. Welterweight and Welterweight, I’ve lessened it just a bit to -5. Pernell Whitaker was a little harder to hit, in my opinion, than Mayweather, especially with the jab. Oscar DeLaHoya landed just about every jab he threw against Mayweather during their fight and everyone at ringside was asking him afterward why he stopped throwing it when it was so effective.

His response was, “I don’t know!”

A -5 is still outstanding. I’m just trying to give credit where credit is due with Sweet Pea’s defensive ability. I guess you could make an argument for keeping Mayweather at -6 at Lightweight through Jr. Welterweight, but Welterweight is another matter. Wilfred Benitez is another good example of a -6 rating. Floyd’s up there, but just a hair below.

This puts “Money” Mayweather right up there with an overall ranking of 13 with the exception of his Lightweight ranking where he was probably at his overall peak with a rating of 14.

Personally, when I step back, it’s hard to see him as an all-time great Lightweight… but in keeping the ratings consistent with his contemporaries, he’s actually a “low” 14. One number lower in any major area will drop his overall rating to 13.

As of this writing, Floyd’s undefeated record is the one thing that gains more attention than his overall achievements. Everyone wants to see if the next opponent will be the first to hand “Money” his first defeat. A valid knock against Mayweather would be the "persona" he's decided to use with the media. Personalities sell. Mayweather consciously choose his "bad ass," street image to sell tickets. In the world of business, there's really nothing wrong with that... but in boxing, fans will expect you to live up to that in the ring. Especially in a megafight as he had against Oscar DeLaHoya.

Should he defeat someone on the level of Manny Pacquiao and retire undefeated, history will surely be a lot kinder to him. The criticism he faces today will fade into the background. If he loses (especially by knockout), there will be a lot of people who will respond as they did with Tyson and insist he was overrated the whole time.
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Last edited by Jersey-Jim; 07-12-2009 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 07-12-2009, 08:18 AM   #48
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Very good, interesting analysis Jim!
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Old 07-13-2009, 09:50 AM   #49
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Thanks, Hamed. Talking about tweaking numbers, I had to tweak the write up! It's amazing how the mind is thinking one thing and the fingers are typing something just a little bit different.
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Old 07-13-2009, 02:26 PM   #50
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Thanks, Hamed. Talking about tweaking numbers, I had to tweak the write up! It's amazing how the mind is thinking one thing and the fingers are typing something just a little bit different.
LOL, I know what you mean Jim. I'll read something after a I wrote it & think: "That's not what I meant or was even thinking, what the heck!"
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Old 08-23-2009, 12:28 AM   #51
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I'm working on the All-Time Middleweights right now. Actually, I'm working on Middleweights period. From the great... to the good... to the not-so-good.

So stay tuned out there!
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Old 11-22-2009, 12:19 AM   #52
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Thomas Thomas

"Lost" Middleweight Champion - Thomas Thomas. I guess you could call him "Tom Thomas."

He began boxing in a sideshow, touring with Freddie Welsh and Jim Driscoll. After winning the local Rhondda valley heavyweight "championship", he won a National Sporting Club middleweight competition in London. Eventually, in May 1906, he fought the Irish champion Pat O'Keefe to become the first national British middleweight champion. In 1909, he fought Charlie Wilson to become the first holder of a Lonsdale Belt at his weight.


He began to suffer from rheumatism, and died from its effects in 1911 in London, where he was preparing for a fight with the Billy Papke.

It is believed that he won 41 of his 44 fights.

His ratings are based upon several old articles I found on Thomas in my boxing magazine collection.
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Old 06-30-2017, 06:40 PM   #53
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Excellent Breakdown of Mayweather!
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Old 08-16-2019, 09:30 AM   #54
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Pryor

\

I've posted a 100 times on Pryor, so here is 101, Pryor was not a Bomber with 1 handed KO power as you mention, Pryor was fast, quick and hit hard with both hands, the only fighters he Knocked out with 1 hand with the worst bums he ever fought which was 98% of his fights, but even most of them were not 1 handed Ko's, his accumulation or combo's or throwing of more than 1 Punch was what put most down, I worked out at his 2 gym's in cincinnati for years before he moved to Miami to workout, and he still kept his gym open and visited when home, no one is his camp considered him to have 1 punch Ko power, but everyone always talked about how hard he punched with both hands, but never a 1 punch ko fighter to anyone around him, he even said if I get a few good shots in, he is going down, not once did he ever say, if I get that 1 punch I will knock him out.


Ray Leonard was a very sharp puncher, but not a bomber. Like Aaron Pryor who resided on division below at Jr. Welterweight, Leonard stopped opponents with an accumulation of punches as opposed to a single punch.


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Sugar Ray Leonard (Welterweight)

Hitting Power: 9

Change hitting power to: 8 or possibly 7.

I dropped Ray's hitting power to an 8. Ray Leonard is rated as being a boxer/slugger. With Control Factors of 11/11, a counter punching rating of 44, and plenty of 3 point punches... you might even make a case for rating Ray Leonard's power around 7.

I'm staying with the original idea of the hitting power being indicative of "single punch, concussive power."


From this "angle," I see a fighter with a hitting power of 9 and higher possessing the type of power that can have an opponent unconscious before he hits the canvas. The higher the number indicates the frequency that type of punch lands!
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Old 08-16-2019, 09:48 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rspen46 View Post
\

I've posted a 100 times on Pryor, so here is 101, Pryor was not a Bomber with 1 handed KO power as you mention, Pryor was fast, quick and hit hard with both hands, the only fighters he Knocked out with 1 hand with the worst bums he ever fought which was 98% of his fights, but even most of them were not 1 handed Ko's, his accumulation or combo's or throwing of more than 1 Punch was what put most down, I worked out at his 2 gym's in cincinnati for years before he moved to Miami to workout, and he still kept his gym open and visited when home, no one is his camp considered him to have 1 punch Ko power, but everyone always talked about how hard he punched with both hands, but never a 1 punch ko fighter to anyone around him, he even said if I get a few good shots in, he is going down, not once did he ever say, if I get that 1 punch I will knock him out.


Ray Leonard was a very sharp puncher, but not a bomber. Like Aaron Pryor who resided on division below at Jr. Welterweight, Leonard stopped opponents with an accumulation of punches as opposed to a single punch.

Good stuff 46, very interesting!


I loved to watch Aaron fight - I recall a rating of him in the old card game & I think his KDR 1 was a 3 so he could get dropped but that usually meant the other guy was in trouble because Aaron would just turn it on.


And Ray being a sharp puncher, Randy Shields once talked about both Ray & Hearns. I think he said Ray's shots were sharp & I believe he said the shots from Hearns landed with more like a thud.
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