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Old 01-04-2009, 02:38 PM   #21
Jersey-Jim
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Fernando Vargas

I had a heck of a time recreating an accurate sim for his career.
His prime was short-lived.

But consider this; at his best he fought very competitively with the following fighters

Winky Wright (He won a close decision. Some people thought he lost, but either way, it was close)

Ike Quartey (He out-toughed the very tough Quartey in the championship rounds)

Felix Trinidad (He floored Trinidad early, absorbed some tremendous bombs, and fought competitively until he was finally gunned down in 12th)

Oscar DeLaHoya (another great effort but came up short at the end)

The current ratings for Fernando Vargas make achieving the above results an impossibility)

Remember, the "chinny version" of Vargas we now see is the results of kayo losses to Trinidad and DeLaHoya. Those two fighters moved him from the "tough to beat" column to the "this car has had major repairs" column. That version fell even farther when Shane Mosley twice stopped him.

In order to recreate a prime Vargas, up his CF's from 10 to 11.
Also, he good offense and high workrate made him a little tougher to hit.
I changed his defense from a +2 to a +1.

With this version, I was able recreate a few of his historic performances without going overboard.

In my universe, he was kayoed by Julian Jackson. I then changed his rating to the current rating (I kept the first version that came with the game). He's now back to the CF's of 10/10 and has a defense of +2

Last night, he made a had his first comeback fight. I used the 10/10 ratings as I explained about above.

That version got brutally kayoed by a "nobody!" So, now, I'm dropping the 10/10 version to "post-prime" and have a very close simulation to his actual career.

With some fighters, I find it easier to create different versions to simulate different parts of their careers. Especially those who were very good, but suffered from the fast burnout syndrome after suffering their first major loss.
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Old 01-06-2009, 12:25 AM   #22
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Here's the adjusted Fernando Vargas along with the "regular" version
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Old 02-18-2009, 01:35 AM   #23
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A guy who is way underrated is Jessie Burnett. I've changed him to a 7. But I think he is normally a 3 or 4.

The guy took most fights on 2 weeks notice against some fantastic fighters. lost 2 of 3 razor close fights with Yacqui Lopez. Split two with galindez.

Got robbed by John Conteh in a fight the British crowd jeered their own fighter when it was called a draw.

Perfect example of a fighter that his record doesn't come close to telling his tale.
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:35 PM   #24
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Michael Spinks Changes

Changes to Michael Spinks ratings


1. A TKO rating of 1
That number is reserved for those who could soak up inhuman amouts of punishement like a Tex Cobb or Jake LaMotta. Even a Marvin Hagler or Rocky Marciano who could walk through bombs and still be firing away. Does that sound like Michael Spinks? A 2 would be much more realistic.

2. A chin rating of 1
Again, Michael Spinks was rocked throughout his career and flattened against Tyson. Although that was at Heavyweight, it's very hard to see him having at Light Heavyweight, a better chin than, let's say - Larry Holmes did at Heavyweight. He didn't exactly face any Archie Moore's, Ezzard Charles's, Bob Fosters, Gene Tunney's, Harry Greb's, etc. during his reign. Rating him amongst the all-time fighters, I give him a 2 for his chin and a knockout rating of 1. Still excellent and more realistic.

I wouldn't doubt if Marvin Hagler had defeated him had he risen in weight. Hagler was great against tall, ranging guys like Spinks who liked to fight on the outside. Spinks had a big right hand, but if Hagler could take it, then he'd really have his hands full.

Adjusting the two ratings mentioned above, at least from where I'm sitting, creates a more accurate version of the real Michael Spinks.


Rating Michael Spinks who only fought 32 times as a 14 along with fighters like Gene Tunney (86 fights) and Archie Moore (200+) who fought some of the greatest fighters ever to lace up the gloves seems a bit imbalanced.

If Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore or Bob Foster – fighters with skill are power beyond David Sears, Willie Edwards or Eddie Mustapha Muhammad nailed Spinks solidly at Light Heavyweight, I see him not faring all that much better than he did when Tyson nailed him at Heavyweight. The difference being, he could probably get up at least once. The changes listed in this post drop Spink's overall rating from a 14 to a 13 - equal to Ezzard Charles and many other Light Heavyweight Greats.


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Old 02-23-2009, 11:37 PM   #25
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Disagree on the chin. He fought Qawi, Mustapha Muhammad, Marvin Johnson, Yacqui Lopez & even Rossman could bang. Not one of them had him even slightly wobbled.
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Old 04-05-2009, 10:28 PM   #26
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Gentlemen, friends and esteemed Title Bout colleagues… after hundreds of play testing simulations, re-reading back issues of World Boxing, KO and Ring Magazines and endless nights spent in restless deliberation…

I give to you…

Greg Haugen!

His overall rating may seem a tad high, but his performances have been so “spot on,” I could have sworn I heard the words coming faintly from my PC speakers, “Don’t call me, Mutt!”

By the way, the 1980's was Boxing's last great golden age. If Greg Haugen were in his prime today... he'd...

you know the rest of the story.

Actually, the Lightweights are very good today. He'd be up there somewhere!
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Old 04-09-2009, 05:42 PM   #27
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Joe Walcott (Welterweight)

The original Joe Walcott had huge, one-power power. Walcott’s manager was a man named Tom O’Rourke who also managed the infamous – Sailor Tom Sharkey. During a sparring session, a single punch from Walcott once deposited Sharkey on his face. That’s the type of one-punch power he had.

In the game, his hitting power is a 5. I changed this to a 10. It could possibly be higher.

Joe Walcott is often credited with coining the phrase, “The Bigger They Come, The Harder They Fall.”

He spoke from experience.

The Aug, 28, 1895 Police News stated, "Walcott now surpasses any of our welterweights, unless it be (Mysterious) Billy Smith, in the telling execution of a single blow. I do not see how he is to be beaten by any foeman who will give him hit for hit. Any man except a very big man whom he gets his right hand on to fairly and squarely isn't coming up for much more. Walcott in his dumpy, dwarf monitor build, his hardness of flesh, his power of punching and the small surface he offers for return hits, is in a class by himself-different from anything else in the field."

“His neck is 18 inches and his chest expanded is 41 inches, which is remarkable for a man of his weight” (138 to 147 pounds)

Walcott’s reputation as a puncher was such that he began having difficulties finding other Welterweights or even Middleweights to fight him. He eventually wound up issuing challenges to Heavyweights to keep food on the table. Tom Sharkey and Champion Jim Jeffries both declined the challenges.

Those who followed Walcott’s career closely said a great majority of his fights were never recorded and that he easily KO’d close to 100 men, most likely more during the course of his career.

The one fight that illustrates all the above better than any other would be Joe Walcott's battle against Joe Choynski. Choyinski had gone 28 rounds against Jim Corbett, and drew with the likes of Bob Fitzsimmons and Al "Kid" MCcoy and would knock out a young Jack Johnson the following year.

Choyinski outweighed Walcott 173 to 137 pounds and was a 5-1 favorite to beat the game little Walcott. Joe Walcott floored Choyinski several times in the first round and stopped him in the 7th.

Keep in mind, Walcott only stood 5 feet 1 and a half inches tall! He was like a human muscle who punished and outfought, not out-boxed or out-ran, Heavyweights!

If you caught Joe Walcott with a really good shot, he could be stopped. He was, after all, only 5’ 1 ½ inches tall and weighed on average about 140 pounds. Catching him with that shot while being hit with “hammers” wasn’t an easy task!


Attached is my version of the Original “Joe Walcott.”
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Old 04-09-2009, 08:46 PM   #28
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I love your tweaks Jim. Speaking of smaller guys slaying "giants"........one of my favorite old time fighters is Bob Fitzsimmons and i'm always telling people that if he was around today......he'd take out both Klitchsko's on the same day. IMO "Ruby Robert" could match or exceed them in strength, scientific fighting, and power. Wouldn't count him out against Valuev, either.
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Old 04-09-2009, 09:11 PM   #29
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If Fitzsimmons could beat the Klitschko's he certainly would have no problem with Valuev.
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:04 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Bomber View Post
If Fitzsimmons could beat the Klitschko's he certainly would have no problem with Valuev.
You are absolutely right Greg. It might be a bit more difficult but Fitzsimmons would take him out as well.

I'd definitely favor Walcott against the smaller HW's like Chagaev, Povetkin, ect.
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Old 04-10-2009, 12:02 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a87star View Post
You are absolutely right Greg. It might be a bit more difficult but Fitzsimmons would take him out as well.

I'd definitely favor Walcott against the smaller HW's like Chagaev, Povetkin, ect.
About 35 years ago, around 1974, one of the old-timers was talking about Bob Fitzsimmons. Fitz was as unusual a person outside of the ring as he was in it. He kept a pet Lion in the house and around his property. His wife, I think her name was Rosie, was a big woman as he was a skinny guy. She was his biggest fan and "advisor." She would scream strategy from ringside telling him, "I said go to the body!!!" if he wasn't following her instructions.

One day, a young guy came to his house seeking guidance in becoming a professional fighter. He was led in by a doorman to the study where Bob was sitting quietly reading a book.

The young guy told him why he was there and Bob Fitzsimmons kept reading, ignoring him. Then he repeated himself and Fitz jumped to his feet and hit him with left that sent him flying across the floor, rolling head over heals.

"That's your first lesson," he said sitting back down again. "Keep your guard up at all times."

Dozens of stories about strange behavior from Ruby Robert as they called him, were told back at that time.

If he fought today, he'd be a millionaire many, many times over. His physical dimensions, skill and power made him one of the very best pound for pound fighters in history.

He could be hurt by the giants like Jim Jeffries, though. But he could also bust them up and stop them if they couldn't nail him flush.

Much like little Joe Walcott mentioned a few posts up.


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Old 04-10-2009, 10:03 PM   #32
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This is a ficticious fighter I created "Bazooka Joe Mack" who is designed to be a modern "Marciano-like, Jim Jeffries-like" character that can fit into just about any universe situation.

Joe Mack can be Italian, Irish, Jewish, you name it. The left the bio fairly open but with enough details to provide an interesting (hopefully) framework.

Joe is a swarming-type of Heavyweight who uses a crossarm, bobbing, weaving defense as he applies relentless pressure from one round to the next, relying heavily upon conditioning.

Is the name "Bazooka Joe" based upon his punching power... or the fact that he likes good old-fashion Bazooka Joe Bubble gum?

That's up for everyone else to decide .
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Old 04-17-2009, 11:28 PM   #33
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Terry McGovern

I'm currently working on "Terrible" Terry McGovern who ratings look to be underrated since the game's card days back in the late 1970's. McGovern's defensive abilities seems to have been much, much better than it appears on the surface from some of the older articles I've read.

Nat Fleischer rates him as the best Featherweight of all time... above Willie Pep. Others rate him at 1 or 2 in the all-time Bantamweight ratings. He also took a shot at the Lightweight Champion and knocked him out in a handful of rounds in a non-title bout shortly after winning the Featherweight title. His reputation seems to run a parrallel with Sonny Liston's at the time. He was considered to be invincible with no visible weaknesses in offense, defense, stamina, etc.

After suffering his first defeat at Featherweight as a result of what some said to be overconfidence, he was never the same again. Very few fighters held two or more titles or captured them so quickly as he did in a era when there were only 7 titles.

More on Terry in the very near future!
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Old 04-18-2009, 02:34 PM   #34
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McGovern

Yeah, in my Uni (a historical one) McGovern definitely underperformed versus RL. His first 30 bouts as BW, he went 22-8, losing all four World title shots versus Jimmy Barry (who, after all, did go undefeated IRL) but also losing to Harry Harris. When I moved him up to FW he did a bit better, eventually capturing a World title belt after losses to Attell, Harry Lyons and Aurelio Herrera (Herrera may have been a cuts stoppage, Lyons was a surprising KO 3 loss). It wasn't until 1906 in my Uni (several years after his RL success) when he TKO'd Jem Driscoll for the FW World title belt, following with wins over Young Griffo, Brooklyn Tommy Sullivan, Tommy Love and George Dixon before losing to Attell again. After that he hit Post-Prime in 1908 and was no longer a serious title threat. His career mark was 37-20-1 (33 KOs), with eight of the losses at Post and End career stage.

Incidentally, the first time I recall hearing about McGovern was some old book of "Ripley's Believe It or Not" as a kid, where he was reputed to be the first boxer to hold three different World titles at once. Of course, based on what I have read since, that honor goes to Hammerin' Hank Armstrong, not McGovern.

Anyway, an all-time great, definite HoF caliber fighter, no matter how you look at it.
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Old 05-19-2009, 01:21 AM   #35
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Here's Terrible Terry McGovern tested over 3 months.
He defeated the best at Bantamweight, Featherweight and Lightweight at his best. He was as dominant as any fighter who ever laced up the gloves - albeit, in a short span of time. When he lost to Young Corbett, it was all downhill from there.

At his best, those who saw him live as well as many all-time greats, thought him to be amongst the best ever, not only at his weight, but P4P.

To sim his career, keep him at prime for a short period of time. Maybe 3 game years if you're running a universe.

After that, move him to post-prime to simulate his rapid decline after his 1st defeat.

Those who lived at that particular time though higher of his ability than we currently do of that of Manny Pacquiao, to put it in perspective.

Another way to sim Terry's career would be to use his Bantamweight ratings all the way up to Lightweight, until either his first loss or 2 to 3 game years (whatever came first), then use his Featherweight ratings from that point on.

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Old 05-20-2009, 04:17 PM   #36
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Terry McGovern . . . Dynamite in a Small package
By Tracy Callis



Terry McGovern was an aggressive, relentless, hard-hitting human dynamo who went after his man like a savage animal from the opening bell until the last second of each round. There was no fooling around. More often than not, he smashed his man into submission.

McGovern fought from a moderate crouch and applied constant pressure. He was a terrific head and body puncher. His left hook was hard and his right hand was fast and explosive and often found his opponent's chin or heart area.

If a man tried to trade punches with him, it ended quickly. Tom McArdle, former Madison Square Garden matchmaker, said "he fought with a tigerish ferocity that swept his opponents off their feet." (The Ring, Nov 1928 p 8)

Even the slickest of fighters such as Joe Gans, Harry Forbes, and Tim Callahan, who chose to box him and not "fight" him, wilted under the tremendous pressure he exerted. Mathison wrote, "clever boxers were his special delight." (The Ring, May 1928 p 6)

Old-timers often compared him to the great Heavyweight Champion, Jack Dempsey. McCallum (1975 p 266) wrote "He loved to fight, was a tremendous hitter, especially with his right, and was as feared in his time as Dempsey was later. In fact, Dempsey was a king-sized [version of] McGovern, to reverse the usual comparison."

Robert Edgren, columnist, once said "Terrible Terry" really was as good as people said. According to Edgren, "I know that had I never seen McGovern fight I couldn't possibly picture him being as great as he was" (see McCallum 1975 p 267).

Terry belonged to that special group of fighters - like Bob Fitzsimmons, Joe Choynski, Joe Walcott, and Stanley Ketchel - whose explosive punching power far exceeded their size.

Fleischer and Andre (1975 p 361) wrote, "Terry was compactly built, fast, and packed a middleweight punch." Joe Humphreys, manager and famous ring announcer for years, called McGovern "that little chunk of Irish dynamite" (see The Ring, May 1932 p 29).

Patsy Haley, a tough little fighter around the turn of the century and referee for many years later, said "McGovern was a wonderful fighter - that goes without saying. But, I never realized what a hitter he was until I faced him that night" (see The Ring, Mar 1926 p 18).

Myler recorded, "One of the hardest hitters in the lower weight divisions, Irish-American Terry McGovern had no time for fancy boxing. He just wanted to get in there and finish off his opponents as quickly as possible." (1997 p 259)

He began fighting as a youth and turned professional at seventeen. Within two years, he was a top contender for the Bantamweight title and a year later, he won it by destroying the previously unbeaten champion, Pedlar Palmer, in less than one round. During one stretch, he knocked out ten men in a total of seventeen rounds. So ferocious was he as champion that his tenure could be called a "Reign of Terror."

Johnston (1936 pp 351 352) wrote that McGovern was "one of the great fighters of all-time" and added that "Terry wasted little time in feeling his man out." Detloff wrote , "He was crude and wild, but he could hit like hell, and he reveled in his reputation as a bully and a streetfighter." (The Ring, 2000 p 141)

Stillman recorded (1920 p 69), "This Irishman was evidently the boiled down essence of Irish battling. When the gong sounded, McGovern recognized it as the signal for hitting, and he never ceased firing his fists from every angle until the gong sounded for retreat. Terry wore down his opponent by pure aggressiveness, and the blows he received didn't seem to affect him."

In a career that spanned 11 years, Terry McGovern recorded 66 victories, many by knockout. He is one of a few men in the history of boxing to hold titles in two divisions - Bantamweight and Featherweight - and he held these at a time when there were only seven weight classes in all of organized boxing. Further, many historians and boxing people feel he earned a strong claim to the Lightweight Championship when he knocked out the reigning Champion, Frank Erne, in three rounds in 1900.

Haldane (1967 p 209) wrote, "... he was not a particular stylist. But he was a tremendous combination of speed and hitting power and it is doubtful if any other Bantam-weight has been able to hit as hard. Nor should we underestimate his speed ..."

DeWitt Van Court (1926 pp 107 108), boxing instructor of the Los Angeles Athletic Club, ranked Terry, George Dixon and Jimmy Barry as the three greatest bantamweights of all time. He also rated McGovern among the three best ever featherweights along with George Dixon and Abe Attell.

Charles Mathison, New York state boxing judge and veteran sportswriter, called McGovern the most effective hitter he ever saw among the bantamweight and featherweight fighters (The Ring, Jun 1932 p 43) and rated Terry, George Dixon and Jimmy Barry as the greatest bantamweights of all time (see The Ring, May 1928 p 6).

Mathison also rated Terry, along with George Dixon, Abe Attell, and Jem Driscoll as the four greatest featherweights of all time (see The Ring, Feb 1928 p 14). He especially favored Dixon and McGovern.

Biddy Bishop, oldtime fighter, manager, and boxing promoter rated McGovern (The Ring, Mar 1927 p 29) as the greatest featherweight of all time. Bill Duffy, oldtime fight manager, also rated Terry as the greatest featherweight of all time (see The Ring, Oct 1926 p 24).

Haldane (1967 p 209) reports on the ratings by some well-known boxing historians, "Jack Hare and Alexander Johnston both picked McGovern as the greatest of the Bantam-weights. The view of Thomas S. Rice was very similar."

Francis Albertanti, writer for "The Ring" magazine and witness of hundreds of fights, wrote (The Ring, Apr 1928 p 7), "We may never live to see a duplicate of the famous 'Terrible Terry'. Fighters like McGovern come once in a lifetime."

In a survey of a number of old-timers, conducted by John McCallum, McGovern was ranked as the #1 All-Time Featherweight (see McCallum 1975 p 323). Nat Fleischer rated Terry as the #1 All-Time Featherweight. Charley Rose rated him as the #1 All-Time Bantamweight. The Ring (2000, p 141) ranked McGovern as the #18 All-Time greatest fighter of the twentieth century (among all weight classes).

In the opinion of this writer, McGovern was the #1 Bantamweight of All-Time and the #3 All-Time Featherweight.
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Old 05-20-2009, 05:11 PM   #37
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You should do some of the modern day fighters Jim, im sure your methods of approaching re-rating fighters could be applied well to the likes of some of boxings biggest stars of today.
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Old 06-21-2009, 01:04 PM   #38
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Simulated the GIANT Super Heavyweights of the 21st Century

All throughout the history of Boxing, there have been GIANTS in the ring. Not all of them were "bums" as some people say. There have always been good, large men.

Now, it looks like the future hold more of what we're seeing today and what we've seen in recent times with fighters like Lennox Lewis, Wlad Klitschko, Vitali Klitschko and even Nikolay Valuev.

When men this big - fight big and don't hunch over, but rather use their size, jab and distance to create openings for those big right hands, there seems to be a distinct advantage in being their being able to control the pace of a round and ultimately, the pace of a fight.

If a fighter gets hit by a properly thrown punch coming from a fighter who is 6' 7" plus and weighs 240 plus pounds, you're talking some real power!

Only a swarming, weaving pressure fighter would be able to get inside and negate that type of advantage. Make a big man fight inside and historically, they have all kinds of problems. One notable exception might be Riddick Bowe. He could fight well inside.

With all that in mind, I started thinking the other day about how the game rates different styles and different skill sets and how that's changed over the years.

The first notable change came about five years ago or so. That's when the higher CF's came into play. It seems the Trunzo's used the higher control factors with certain fighters to simulate the pressure or swarming type of fighting style.

The more I examine this style, the more I see that the number of fighters who are able to pull it off are few and far in-between. First, you have to be in great, great shape each time out in order to come forward, throw volumes of punches while applying pressure, and bob/weave/move your head so you're not a sitting duck for counterpunches. That, or you need a great chin.

LaMotta had a great chin.
Greb and Walker had great chins.

Tyson had a very good chin but was an all-time great in the bobbing and weaving department.

Frazier had a good chin but was another all-time great bobbing and weaving machine.

Now, to the Super Heavyweights...

How could you simulate the ATHLETIC GIANT? It stands to reason that after the Klitschko's are gone, more and more Giants will arise on the scene to replace them. Some will be flash in the pans, but not every single one of them. Right?

So my thoughts are, how would you simulate a huge fighter like a Wlad or Vitali and at the same time, stay true the games rating system and the value (both mathematically and keeping in the same "spirit" of the historical replay) of each individual rating?

Here's what I came up with so far.

The Super Heavyweight Model

1. Doesn't throw a lot of punches each round. Doesn't land a large number of punches each round (possibly a lower PL rating?)

2. Seems to cause above average cumulative amounts of damage over the course several rounds. (higher 3 point punches)

3. Primary Weapons are the jab and right hand. The jab works as both an offensive and defensive weapon (high number of jabs, high number of 3 point jabs to simulate point #2

3. Although they have single punch power, they rarely seem to knock people out with one single concussive shot, but rather, pile up the damage to the point where that shot becomes the end result.

4. Don't fight particularly well on the inside and as a result, clinch a lot (higher clinching numbers)

5. They limit their ring movement and are overall - conserving energy until an opponent is ready to go. They don't display the aggression of a Mike Tyson, George Foreman, etc.

6. Defensively, they seem to get his less than the average fighter does! This isn't because they slip a lot of punches or have great head movement. Their defense this the difficulty opponents have getting inside and landing more than one or two punches at a time.

At the same time, you don't want to handing out -5's and 6's, as those numbers seem better suited for the defensive geniuses of the game.

Maybe the High Control factor, lower punches landed, higher 3 point punches and a -2 defense - that's where I'm at right now as far as a starting point goes.

Right now, Emanuel Steward has created the blueprint, first in Lennox Lewis and now in Wlad Klitschko (and to a point in Vitali, too) of the BIG man strategy.

They are technical fighters. Not bombs away types of sluggers. They rely upon the jab to set everything else up and can effectively tie another fighter up on the inside. Although a good pressure fighter with a good uppercut can neutralize that strategy, there aren't too many of them around!

I'm not saying that the Giant Heavyweight Fighter/Style is unbeatable. A fast boxer, mover could give them a lot of trouble, too. Also, if you put 2 Giants together, you basically have an even fight that comes down speed, power, chin, etc. without height and reaching giving any advantage.

I'm experimenting with the numbers right now.

I hope to have a few tests ready in the upcoming weeks.

-JJ

Last edited by Jersey-Jim; 06-21-2009 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 06-21-2009, 06:01 PM   #39
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Here's the adjusted Fernando Vargas along with the "regular" version
Hey Jim, I just downloaded this Vargas today & noticed he's 24-2 & lost his last 2 by KO & TKO. So you'd built him up to 24-0 & then he lost his last 2?

That's interesting because he's 22-2 in my uni.
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Old 06-21-2009, 08:12 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by hamed2 View Post
Hey Jim, I just downloaded this Vargas today & noticed he's 24-2 & lost his last 2 by KO & TKO. So you'd built him up to 24-0 & then he lost his last 2?

That's interesting because he's 22-2 in my uni.
Yes, I followed the formula of rating him at his best, then after he loses by stoppage for the first time, he drops to post-prime. He was better than his last opponent, but his chin betrayed him and he was iced!

So actually, his last fight was at post-prime.

Poor Vargas. He ran into Julian Jackson!
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