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Old 11-15-2008, 12:06 AM   #81
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Bravo - now that's what I call quick service. While I agree that his D was non-existent and he had a weak chin from what I've read, the heightened power and the higher rating seem more appropriate for Maher, more accurately representing him as the erratic but dangerous foe he actually was during this time period.

The adjusted Maher ratings should definitely make for some interesting fights.

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Old 11-15-2008, 11:13 AM   #82
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Glad to see this thread moving again.

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Old 11-16-2008, 08:24 PM   #83
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This is my favorite thread in all of the OOTP forums and subforums. That's not to say that the others are bad. They're good and I like visiting and posting, but this one is my favorite.

I've always been one to put the boxer ratings under a microscope and see what transpires from there.

Many fighters, especially older ones, have been rated based upon what seems to be a few performances.

This thread weighs the pros can cons out and makes very logical arguments for the ratings adjustments.

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Originally Posted by djday45 View Post
Ok guys I know ive taken an age to get round to this rating. Apologies real life blah blah lol.

Anyway the official rating for Mitchell is quite shocking in its inacurracy. Im actually quite shocked how bad the rating is.

Here is a guy who is in multiple boxing hall of fames and started his career at lightweight! and went all the way to heavy and was still in the championship picture at each division.

A blown up lightweight fought Sullivan for the heavyweight title!

Style - Slugger. He was not a boxer he was a tough feisty little scrapper very similar in style to Kilrain.

Fouls - Frequently. Again with Kilrain and Sullivan he was a dirty little sob. He was known primarily in the bare knuckle days as a wrestler par excellence. He brought some of this over to the marquis of queensbury rules. He had fouls for all occasions.

Fight Inside - 4 - With Kilrain the best inside fighter of his day. he used clinching and wrestling as a positive boon to his style. Was known to be almost impossible to deal with inside.

Fight Outside - 0. He didnt box. He brawled and wrestled.

Cover Up - 3. He was however very effective in spoiling and smothering attacks. A good defensive fighter in this respect, one of the reasons he was hard to stop.

Knock Out -1. He didnt often go for a stoppage by Ko. But it was possible. Much more often wore guys down inside.

Clinching - 74. He was all about smothering and wrestling inside ring movement would be unknown to him in that era.

Intellect -7. Increase of 2. He was actually quite a cunning clever fighter much more than given credit for.

Control VS Slugger - 11. Way, way out, he controlled the vast amjority of his bouts with the sluggers off his day coming unstuck only against John L, no shame in that.

Chin VS Knockdown -3. Again way out. He had a great chin. Ive only made it 3 because he was still basically a middleweight taking heavyweight firepower and was sometimes hurt.

Recovery - 1. While hurt he usually got back up and foughr back with tenacity.

Absorb Punishment -2. Again he was a brave man taking punches above his weight. he was only stopped in his prime versus Sullivan.

Killer Instinct - 3. He often floored opponents but hardly ever finished them off. Either by accident or design he found it hard to end the fight.

Agressivness -9. Way off, he was very agressive using his wrestling style to constantly be in his opponenents face.

Defense +2. He took punches but maybe less than most of his contemparies at the time.

Hitting Power 5 he often hurt and floored opponents but didnt have the will or power to finish them off in one serving.

Punches Landed 40. He threw an awful lot of leather and sheer volume of punches means im increasing it considerbly to 40. Allied to this he was deceptively skilled as an inside technician of the time.

Counter Punches 36. bumping this up slightly to stay in time with his punches landed.

Overall Rating - 7. bumps him way up from his idiotic 3. putting him in Kilrains league but Sullivan will still make short work of him.
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Old 11-17-2008, 02:38 AM   #84
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Hadn't checked in here before, fantastic thread.

Keep up the good work.
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Old 11-17-2008, 04:07 AM   #85
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Sonny Liston

Tks guys much appreciated, im going to change the era a bit now and do some rating which might impact the new replay the Professor is doing (prof if you have any requests feel free).

The only prob is I have changed these ratings a long time back so I dont know what was original and what I may have changed, so what im going to do is list the whole rating and the reasons I feel they are accurate for the fighter.

STANCE - Left Handed. Ok, you guys will know I use this rating not just to represent stance but also other factors which cant be easily represented by other ratings in the game. Here im using it to represent Liston's vaunted fear factor where he often used to psych out his opponent before the first bell sounded by his patented stare, using towels under his robe and general bad arse demeanor. It worked.

STYLE - Slugger. The archetypal puncher from hell. With Foreman, and Tyson he is part of the holy trinity of heavyweight monsters. There is a small argument to make him an "either" due to his very inderrated boxing skill and quality of his jab but I still feel this would be an untrue representation of his style.

FOULS - Occasionaly. Liston was not known as a particuarly dirty fighter as he was so classically skilled but he was not against throwing blows south of the border especially his hook to the body. He was for example peanalised three points against Machen in his decision over him in 1960.

FIGHTING INSIDE - 3. He was a great inside man. very nasty up close with hooks and uppercuts but always gave himself plenty of room to operate. here his brute strength really came into its own.

FIGHTING OUTSIDE - 3. What is not often understood about Sonny is what a great boxer he was, great classical skills very smooth and deceptively fast, and of course it all worked off that amazing jab.

COVER UP - 0. A common theme with the great punchers Louis, Tyson etc is that they were so bad when hurt. Liston was no exception.

KNOCKOUT - 3. Tempted to give him a 4 here but kept it at 3 to really punch home how versatile he was with tactics, he could really beat you and take you apart in many ways.

CLINCHING - 71. Not known as a mover as such although he cut off the ring very, very well its not the same thing. I think good ring movement should be rarer in the game.

DRAW POWER - 7. A good solid draw but not a superstar especially after he won the title as most people couldnt see how he could be beaten so gates suffered a bit.

CONDITIONING - 2. A very well conditioned man especially after you factor in his age which most experts agree was maybe quite a bit older than he admitted too. He nearly always came into the ring in great nick.

INTELLECT - 7. Quite a clever fighter with opponents, this may seem low then but I like to use the full ten points here so most lower rated fighters especially sluggers get a lower rating here.

CONTROL VS BOXER - 11. This is a great rating it just pales to his ability against sluggers. This is basically to show his lesser ability against real boxers such as Ali. I think age also has to factor into these losses and dodgy unknown circumstances but it cannot be doubted Ali gave him fits with movement and footwork and made Sonny look very slow. An 11 shows that other boxers such as Patterson, Machen, Folley were unable to.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER - 14. If we take Foreman and Louis as the very, very best against sluggers then Liston should absolutely be at the very next level. He was an absolute destroyer against men who stood straight in front of him and its hard to see now with hindsight how scary he was deemed to be before Ali.

CHIN VS KNOCKDOWN - 2. Liston is always seen as having a great chin and I agree with this. However he was knocked down three times during his career against Marshall, Ali and Martin, none of whom was seen as a heavy puncher. I think we can then conclude he could be hurt more by speed and being unprepared rather than a physical thing. So im quite happy giving him a 2.

CHIN VS KNOCKOUT - 1. Only knocked out twice once against Ali in very iffy circumstances and once at the very end of his career against Martin. He should be very very hard to KO.

RECOVERY - 1. Again when hurt he normally survived. He wasant a folder under pressure.

RESISTANCE TO CUTS -1. Liston never had a probelm much with cuts or swelling as usually he seemed to be the one handing out the damage!

ABSORB PUNISHMENT - 2. Im really torn with this rating on one hand he is often sighted as a bully quitting on his stool against Ali in the first fight and just rolling over in the 2nd but on the other hand he went the distance against Marshall with a broken jaw after injuring himself in an early round and often walked threw his opponents punches and showed great courage. Im tempted to give him a 3 but settle on a 2 as this is more balanced and im also not convinced something wasant very wrong in those Ali fights.

KILLER INSTINCT - 10. A no brainer, if you ever watch the footage of the Patterson fights you will have no doubt. He took apart the greatest contenders of the late 50's one after one in such a nasty fashion people like Henry Cooper refused to get in the ring with him.

AGRESSIVNESS - 9. A very agressive puncher however he was also skilled and controlled due to his boxing ability.

ENDURANCE - 8. Despite his conditioning he wsant outstanding here and was often if not puffing then it could be said he lost momentum in fights if the guy didnt go in the first half of the fight. some of his late fight TKO's were due to cuts rather than clean knockouts.

DEFENSE - +2. This was one definate weakness. He wasant great defensively relying on his great offense and reach and boxing skills to keep him out of trouble. His head movement was average and a lack of footwork made him a slight target.

FAST STARTER -0. To reflect all those early ko's especially the Patterson demolitions he has to be given a 0 here.

FIGHT ON ROPES - 3. Again I feel most fighters especially sluggers should be in this range making great skilled ropes fighters such as Ali and Leonard really special.

HITTING POWER - 13. A monstrous huge puncher with his huge fists and hooks, uppercuts and right hands. As i have mentioned before if we put Foreman first I think guys like Liston, Tyson, Marciano, Louis and Dempsey must come next as a group where punching power is concerned. The more i research and read about these guys makes me feel they cant be seperated.

PUNCHING - 42. This is surpingly high for a slugger and does not represent his speed which wasant outstanding more the fact of his great reach and execellent accuracy and boxing skills often working off his outstanding nasty jab. Liston was pretty damned accurate.

COUNTER PUNCHING - 40. Again very high for a puncher and he was quite capable of spearing people with that jab quickly after they missed and following up with nasty hooks.

PUNCHES MISSED - 61. he was economical with his punches his boxing skills and jab ensuring he didnt waste too much. Liston was a monster but he was a very smooth monster.

PUNCHES - have not changed these, if you do anything reduce down his combos and add these to his jab. With Liston the jab was so important.

OVERALL RATING - the changes boost him by a point to 13.

Last edited by djday45; 11-17-2008 at 04:14 AM.
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Old 11-17-2008, 06:33 PM   #86
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Great thread and great work..love reading the thoughts on the ratings. This forum(overall)has,by far,the most well-rounded boxing fans that you will find anywhere. One point though,when talking of all-time heavy punchers in the heavyweight division..dont forget my man Earnie Shavers. Although he wasnt nearly as complete a fighter as the guys you mention,many who tasted both Shavers and Foremans punch,said that Shavers hit just as hard if not harder. When comparing Tysons punch to Shavers,Larry Holmes remarked "Earnie hits much harder than Mike". Even though Tyson knocked out an old Holmes,Larry said the punch that Shavers floored him with back in the day "made my head hurt for two weeks" LOL. Earnie sure could punch. He just didnt have the same kind of defense or stamina that the guys you mention above possessed. Great job guys. Keep up the good work.
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Old 11-17-2008, 07:24 PM   #87
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Great thread and great work..love reading the thoughts on the ratings. This forum(overall)has,by far,the most well-rounded boxing fans that you will find anywhere. One point though,when talking of all-time heavy punchers in the heavyweight division..dont forget my man Earnie Shavers. Although he wasnt nearly as complete a fighter as the guys you mention,many who tasted both Shavers and Foremans punch,said that Shavers hit just as hard if not harder. When comparing Tysons punch to Shavers,Larry Holmes remarked "Earnie hits much harder than Mike". Even though Tyson knocked out an old Holmes,Larry said the punch that Shavers floored him with back in the day "made my head hurt for two weeks" LOL. Earnie sure could punch. He just didnt have the same kind of defense or stamina that the guys you mention above possessed. Great job guys. Keep up the good work.
Yep the list i gave wasant complete, just the first guys that came into my mind. Earnie would always qualify for a 13 hitting power in my book.
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Old 11-17-2008, 11:00 PM   #88
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Sonny Liston is one of the most fascinating fighters in the history of boxing. I read the book - The Devil and Sonny Liston, which was a great book.

Sonny could have been the best fighter Heavyweight of them all. The book suggests that both Ali fights were thrown by Liston and puts forth a decent argument. According to the book, Liston was supposed to lose the first fight via decision. In the course of losing one round after another, the punishment he took led him to say, "The hell with this," and he exited the fight at the midway point instead of allowing Ali to pound on him the rest of the way.

Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano were both impressed by Liston and neither would have wanted a part of him (according to their own admissions) if he were fighting in their eras. Obviously, Louis and Marciano saw beyond the intimidating aura of Liston and acknowledged the presence of some very measurable substance and ability.

In the end, however, do you rate a fighter based upon what he "could have done" or by what he actually did?

The mob cashed in the night Liston lost to Ali. That is a fact that goes beyond conjecture. Ali was a big underdog. It's hard to present all the facts of the Liston-Ali fights because many people get offended by anything they perceive as "Anti-Ali".

Liston believed that winning the title would be his chance at "redemption" for the poor choices he'd made in his life. On the plane ride back to Philly, listen told passengers that he would "wear the belt with respect and honor." He was expecting a parade when he returned to Philly, and when he stepped out of the plane, not only wasn't there a hero's welcome, according to those who were there that day, there wasn't a single soul there to great him.

Those close to Liston said, at that moment... Sonny Liston's hope of a better tomorrow died for good.

You can buy "The Devil and Sonny Liston" at Amazon.com for a decent price. The writer's style is as dark, gritty and to the point as the man about whom he's writing. It's one of the better books on Liston you'll find anywhere. Practically a must for anyone who enjoys reading the "Ratings of the Day Council" writings!

Last edited by Jersey-Jim; 11-19-2008 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 11-18-2008, 03:24 AM   #89
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Love this thread!
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Old 11-18-2008, 05:46 AM   #90
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Floyd Patterson

Cant have some Sonny without a little Floyd.

STANCE - Right Handed. Floyd was a righty and had no special factors making me want to change that.

STYLE - Either. He was a true boxer/puncher and this was one of his strengths in that he could change his style. This was very apparent often in his rematches and the period after the Liston disasters where he got back so much respect in his career.

FOULS - Seldom. Floyd was a very clean fighter in and out of the ring. His hooks to the body sometimes strayed but that was enthusism not intent.

FIGHT INSIDE - 2. Patterson was good inside, not a speciality but he was effective when choosing to.

FIGHTING OUTSIDE - 3. Patterson was a really effective boxer with his amazing hand speed peek a boo defense and excellent leaping footwork.

COVER UP - 1. Not good in a crisis, was temped to giive him a zero but post Liston he did learn a bit and free off the expectancy of the title blossomed somewhat.

GO FOR KNOCKOUT - 3. It's often overlooked these days how much power Floyd had. He was a really strong puncher. It often got him into trouble in a fight but thats another story.

CLINCHING - 69. Quite a good mover in the ring and effective when doing so, he liked room to operate those flashy hooks and combos.

DRAW POWER - 6. Quite an effective draw as his fights as champ always seemed exciting due to his fragilness, afterwards less so as it took the public a long time to accept he wasant actually shot post Sonny.

CONDITIONING - 9. the very definition of a head case, Floyd was so erratic it was untrue. The funny thing is again post title he became much more settled down in his performances and far less up and down. My theory is that D'Amato's insistence on over protecting him so zealously in his championship reign really effected Patterson mentally. He was basically a very brave man and wanted to take on all comers but was stopped by Cus who refused to fight such dangerous contenders as Machen, Valdez, Folley and of course ducked Liston for years until it became a joke and Flloyd insisted on facing him.
Look at the quality of opposition after the title its a whose who of mid to late 60s heavyweight contenders. I think his managements attitude must of effected his confidence terribly and this bled into his woefully erractic performances as champion.

INTELLECT - 8. A clever fighter who was capable of making adjustments when not psyched out ie in the 2nd and 3rd Ingemar fights and in the late 60's.

CONTROL VS BOXERS - 12. Floyd always did best against boxers he performed magnificently against Ali, took apart Moore, won two out of three against Johannson, beat Machen and Cooper handily. It was partly his style Patterson leaped at you with his favourite hooks and combos so he needed room to work to be effective. Also his defense worked best with room to avois blows.

CONTROL VS SLUGGERS - 9. He didnt face many pure sluggers in his career but when he did they gave him fits. Liston and Quarry are the best examples but also Bonavena and Chuvalo also gave him problems due to their styles. at the end of the day Liston was jsut so totally wrong for Floyd in so many ways.

CHIN VS KNOCKOUT - 4. probably the heavyweight champ with the worst chin. Im tempted to give him a 5 but I will save the worst score by far for his recovery rating. Pattersons chin was strange he could sometimes take lots of punishment and other times go down like a sack of spuds. Im convinced it was his balance which with his leaping at opponents and his peek a boo defense he was often caught without having his feet set properly ie instant knockdown.

CHIN VS KNOCKOUT - 2. A prety decent score here as although he was often knocked down he nearly always bravely got back up. His KO's are more easily represented in the game as not getting back up after accumilated punishment.

RECOVERY -6. This is the big weakness, once he was hurt he often went to pieces completley. Down 6 times in a round in the first Ingemar fight. 3 times in the 2nd Liston fight. Twice in the 1st quarry fight, twice in the 3rd Ingemar fight, and all in the same round. Floyds recovery powers were truly terrible and giving him a 6 reflects that chance of multiple knockdowns handily.

RESISTANCE TO CUTS - he was only stopped once to cuts in his final fight against Ali so im quite comfortable giving him a 2 here.

ABSORB PUNISHMENT - 2. Although his chin was very suspect he was a very brave fighter with plenty of heart thats why he kept getting back up! a good solid 2 rating here will let those multiple knockdowns occur and sometimes let Floyd turn it around like he did.

KILLER INSTINCT - 8. Again I would emphasise how dangerous Patterson could be on the offensive look at the film of the Cooper, Johannsson, Moore or Rademacher fights he was a very dangerous puncher with plenty of bite to finish hurt opponents.

AGGRESIVNESS - 8. He always came foward sometimes this didnt do him any good and later he tempered this with more experiance and control but Floyd always came to fight.

ENDURANCE - 9. He was always in excellent shape and despite his conditioning rating it should be reflected here. he had a number of late stoppages in his favour Jackson, Harris, London and often had plenty in the tank if he had controlled the fight.

DEFENSE -2. He had an excellent defense the patented peek a boo style taught by D'Amato most famusly seen again in Tyson. The combination of excellent head movement and high guard served Floyd admirably.

FAST STARTER - 3. The Liston fights and many others showed how vulnerable Floyd was early on in the contest, he always warmed up mid bout.

FIGHT ON ROPES - 3. Didnt fight well under extreme pressure and this reflects that. Not a good place for Floyd to be backed into. despite his good footwork he got drawn into wars which were never a good idea with a chin like his.

HITTING POWER -9. I will say again that Floyd packed a wallop all right. This is a perfect score for him i feel not a true one punch ko man but hitting hard enough with that handspeed of his to take out plenty of opponents in mid to late round stoppages. Its very easy to forget about his left hooks as we remember him for the Liston pathetic performances, he was much more than that.

PUNCHING - 46. Now we come to the one ability which set him apart in the heavies. Maybe the single fastest hands in the division history and truly the one factor which made Patterson so special. His hands had blazing speed for his weight and without doubt this hand speed was a massive factor in what bought him his greatest victories and the championship. Absolutley a 46.

COUNTERPUNCHING - 42. The standard drop of four points here as he was never known as a counterer.

PUNCHES - Up his hooks in particular and his combos slightly and reduce down his jab and crosses to do so. His hook was his signature punch and his most damaging one it should reflect this.

OVERALL RATING - 10. A good solid overall rating for him. He will perform admirably here against most guys in the division and punch over his weight against some but at other times he will fold like a house of cards and infuriate you with his inconsistency a very entertining fighter to sim.
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Old 11-18-2008, 11:23 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djday45 View Post
CONDITIONING - 9. the very definition of a head case, Floyd was so erratic it was untrue. The funny thing is again post title he became much more settled down in his performances and far less up and down. My theory is that D'Amato's insistence on over protecting him so zealously in his championship reign really effected Patterson mentally. He was basically a very brave man and wanted to take on all comers but was stopped by Cus who refused to fight such dangerous contenders as Machen, Valdez, Folley and of course ducked Liston for years until it became a joke and Flloyd insisted on facing him.
Look at the quality of opposition after the title its a whose who of mid to late 60s heavyweight contenders. I think his managements attitude must of effected his confidence terribly and this bled into his woefully erractic performances as champion.
This is a very interesting observation. Perhaps this should be reflected in D'Amato's ratings as much as, if not more than in Patterson's? Because if this theory is true (and I think I'm buying it), it might be fun to sim a universe where Patterson dumps D'Amato at some point and signs on with someone else.
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Old 11-18-2008, 10:40 PM   #92
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Patterson Revision!

This is fantastic!!! Your timing couldn't be better for my "Partial Eclipse of the Sonny" uni. I was planning to sim him for the first time in my uni within the next few days against Hurricane Jackson. BigMatt tipped me off about the rating (also the Liston revision). I generally check you out once a week and have always loved seeing the thought you put into these new ratings, but I saw that you were working the old timer, for the most part. So if it weren't for bigMatt, I guess I would have come accross this later.

Maybe you could help me a little with my uni. I might bring Marciano back into the ring. It would be late 1957 or sometime in 1958 (he'd be in his mid thrities with a few years of ring rust). Any suggested adjustments???
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Old 11-19-2008, 01:08 AM   #93
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This is fantastic!!! Your timing couldn't be better for my "Partial Eclipse of the Sonny" uni. I was planning to sim him for the first time in my uni within the next few days against Hurricane Jackson. BigMatt tipped me off about the rating (also the Liston revision). I generally check you out once a week and have always loved seeing the thought you put into these new ratings, but I saw that you were working the old timer, for the most part. So if it weren't for bigMatt, I guess I would have come accross this later.

Maybe you could help me a little with my uni. I might bring Marciano back into the ring. It would be late 1957 or sometime in 1958 (he'd be in his mid thrities with a few years of ring rust). Any suggested adjustments???
Ok, Happy to help I will do Jackson next and then look at two ratings for Marciano, One prime and then after a lengthy to or three year lay off. Obviously that will be pure speculation, but we can try to make it as logical as possible.

So are you not using the career stages? Its intresting if you are not as I sometimes feel they are very restrictive and a one size fits all approach is not very realistic as far as fighters are concerned.
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Old 11-19-2008, 01:34 AM   #94
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Tommy Hurricane Jackson

Ok looking at the rating and rereading my material on Jackson and studying his record again the games rating is pretty damned accurate apart from his power which is way off.

So their follows only my feelings on what needs changing nothing else.

FIGHT INSIDE - 3. Upping this to three as this was his primary tactic and style he was a real swarmer of a fighter.

GO FOR KNOCKOUT - 2. This was ay out as he packed quite a wallop and was often looking to end a fight whenever he could.

CONDITIONING - 2. Worsening this by one as although he was a good trainer he did not have a lengthy career and I feel the rating of 1 should be reserved for guys we know were truly special here.

CHIN VS KNOCKDOWN -3. Increasing this by one as he was knocked down quite a few times. his chin was average at best.

CHIN VS KNOCKDOWN - 2. The rating of four is wrong. He was only actually Ko'd once at the end of his career his three other stoppages came as TKO's.

RECOVERY - 4. This is where he was not too good. The Valdez fight saw him down three times in a round and also the Patterson fights and Machen saw him in trouble with recovery.

FIGHT ON ROPES -2. Not a specialist here so being prudent and upping it to the average.

HITTING POWER - 6. This is where his rating falls apart. !? he was a swarming brawler who packed a very good wallop and from his victories stopped half of those opponents. He was not a powder puff puncher and a score of 6 here accurately represents a man who for example stopped Rex Layne twice.

PUNCHES - I would increase his 3 point hooks and uppercuts slightly to represent his power on the inside more but thats about it.

OVERALL RATING - 6. A slight increase of one will see him give Patterson some problems as he is a slugger with respectable power but his own frailties should always see Floyd come out on top allbeit after some scary moments sometimes. Testing the fighters Patterson wins over 80% of the time which is I think a great outcome. When Tommy does win he stops Floyd.

Last edited by djday45; 11-19-2008 at 01:45 AM.
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Old 11-19-2008, 03:39 AM   #95
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Good stuff Dean, you are on a roll!

For me your explanation of individual ratings is the most interesting angle on this thread.

Have you ever posted anything on how to rate fighters?
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Old 11-19-2008, 05:53 AM   #96
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Good stuff Dean, you are on a roll!

For me your explanation of individual ratings is the most interesting angle on this thread.

Have you ever posted anything on how to rate fighters?
Thks I know! im being very active for a change! might have to change my conditioning rating lol.

when I conceived this thread, that was my main goal to actually explain my reasoning about changes just to make the thread a bit more unique and to stimulate some thought and discussion.

No I have never done any writing on how to rate fighters as such.
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Old 11-19-2008, 06:20 AM   #97
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Thks I know! im being very active for a change! might have to change my conditioning rating lol.

when I conceived this thread, that was my main goal to actually explain my reasoning about changes just to make the thread a bit more unique and to stimulate some thought and discussion.

No I have never done any writing on how to rate fighters as such.
Keep up the good work.

If you do ever decide to put 'pen to paper' on your rating thoughts please email me a copy.
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Old 11-19-2008, 06:25 AM   #98
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Harold Carter

As before if I dont mention a rating you know I agree with it.

COVER UP - 1. Reducing this down by two. Anyone stopped so many times as Carter was should not be known as a specialist in the defensive arts.

GOING FOR KNOCKOUT - 2. Increasing this by two. He had a very respectable stoppage percentage. This should be an option for him if not a speciality.

CONTROL VS BOXER - 9. Upping this by 2. A score of seven in his control factors is way too low for him, he was a contender allbeit a minor one. But if we take on average a contender having a control factor of 10. then he needs to come up from 7 as that is far more a journeyman/trial horse level of control.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER - 8. only increasing this by one here as he did have much more trouble against in your face punchers. Witness his bad losses to Valdez and Miteff.

CHIN VS KNOCKOUT -4. Worsening this by one as he was actually ko'd four times. He was not the tougest of fighters by any means.

ABSORB PUNISHMENT - 4. Again worse by one as he was actually tko'd another four times for a total of eight stoppage losses many of which he was stopped without being on the canvas which tells another bad story. Heart was not his strong point.

FAST STARTER - 3. He was caught and stopped in the 2nd round on three seperate occassions, he only started feeling safe until round three.

HITTING POWER - 4. A slight increase of 2 here. He had stoppages against just under half his wins which you would think meant I rate him higher and more powerful here but if you look at his record carefully these stoppages came mostly in the first few years of his career when he was facing limited opposition. When he moved up in quality the stoppages dried up mostly. He deserves a bump up here but not by much.

PUNCHES LANDED - 40. He was described as "fast" and this was maybe his best strength so I have no prob bumping him up to 40 if we take 38 as average.

COUNTERPUNCHING - 42. Again bumping up here slightly as he was known as a counterer and many of his best wins came in close decisions where he had countered effectively.

OVERALL RATING - 6. Up a point to 6 but really no improvment here just tweaking. He should now either fold or stick around and eek out some annoying decision wins in your universe.
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Old 11-19-2008, 06:32 AM   #99
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Keep up the good work.

If you do ever decide to put 'pen to paper' on your rating thoughts please email me a copy.
Would people like to see some kind of supplementry ratings guide to go along with what is in the manual?

This is only my opinion guys, not trying to set myself up a "guru" on ratings. Tons of guys here have a lot of wonderful boxing knowledge.
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:06 AM   #100
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As before if I dont mention a rating you know I agree with it.

COVER UP - 1. Reducing this down by two. Anyone stopped so many times as Carter was should not be known as a specialist in the defensive arts.

GOING FOR KNOCKOUT - 2. Increasing this by two. He had a very respectable stoppage percentage. This should be an option for him if not a speciality.

CONTROL VS BOXER - 9. Upping this by 2. A score of seven in his control factors is way too low for him, he was a contender allbeit a minor one. But if we take on average a contender having a control factor of 10. then he needs to come up from 7 as that is far more a journeyman/trial horse level of control.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER - 8. only increasing this by one here as he did have much more trouble against in your face punchers. Witness his bad losses to Valdez and Miteff.

CHIN VS KNOCKOUT -4. Worsening this by one as he was actually ko'd four times. He was not the tougest of fighters by any means.

ABSORB PUNISHMENT - 4. Again worse by one as he was actually tko'd another four times for a total of eight stoppage losses many of which he was stopped without being on the canvas which tells another bad story. Heart was not his strong point.

FAST STARTER - 3. He was caught and stopped in the 2nd round on three seperate occassions, he only started feeling safe until round three.

HITTING POWER - 4. A slight increase of 2 here. He had stoppages against just under half his wins which you would think meant I rate him higher and more powerful here but if you look at his record carefully these stoppages came mostly in the first few years of his career when he was facing limited opposition. When he moved up in quality the stoppages dried up mostly. He deserves a bump up here but not by much.

PUNCHES LANDED - 40. He was described as "fast" and this was maybe his best strength so I have no prob bumping him up to 40 if we take 38 as average.

COUNTERPUNCHING - 42. Again bumping up here slightly as he was known as a counterer and many of his best wins came in close decisions where he had countered effectively.

OVERALL RATING - 6. Up a point to 6 but really no improvment here just tweaking. He should now either fold or stick around and eek out some annoying decision wins in your universe.
Excellent! He already did, and is about to be in line for a title shot!! I left you a response at my "Partial Eclipse of the Sonny." Once again, I really appreciate your efforts in conjunction with my uni.
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