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Old 11-24-2008, 04:35 PM   #141
djday45
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Originally Posted by a87star View Post
Chuvalo is one of my favorite "Golden Era" heavyweights. I saw his fight with Foreman and he didn't flinch once when he was hit with those massive bombs. Amazing durability and a rock solid chin.

Will you be doing an update on Cleroux?
Lol I will now.
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Old 11-25-2008, 07:53 AM   #142
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Ok here is Marciano first as a prime then in brackets any ammendments i might make to model him having a 2 or 3 year lay off.
STYLE - Sluuger. Doh

FOULS - Often. He was a dirty, dirty fighter and im very surprised, if not amazed that he did not lose a fight by DQ. (its quite possible you could change this rating to frequently to represent both his mistiming of his punches and also the growing frustration when he realises his skills are not the same in fights as they were and this realisation kicks in)

FIGHT INSIDE -4. A total monster inside one of the great heavies at this strategy...

INTELLECT - 6. Not an amazingly thinking fighter his stratergies didnt need to be to be honest....
I had a question about the rationale here. I can understand why you would give Marciano a 6 for intellect, but I presume you also want him to fight inside a lot. Won't a low score for intellect just limit his ability to follow orders and do that?
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Old 11-25-2008, 10:51 AM   #143
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I just reduced it down one from seven so it wont be a massive change, my thinking is a bit old school here anyway in I come from the board game background version of the game, in which you were always cautioned by Jim in using the strategies too much anyway so im quite happy when they use their normal "style" which for Rocky will be bulling inside anyway, its all present in the ratings he has which total up as his "style".
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Old 11-26-2008, 05:40 AM   #144
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Alex Miteff

Miteff was a solid minor contender in the late 50's and early 60's. If I dont mention a rating then as usual I agree with it.

CONDITIONING -5. I wish the one's given out in the game were much rarer, in this case Miteff was a very up and down fighter and he liked a party or three.

CONTROL VS BOXER -8. Upping this and control vs slugger up one as he was a minor contender in the top ten of the ring ratings from 58 to 60. He did have more problems with boxers and usually lost by decision to the top guys, his other problem was that although he did better style wise against sluggers his chin didnt often hold up.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER -9. See above.

RESISTANCE TO CUTS -3. Miteff had at least two stoppage losses due to cuts, he was a bleeder.

ABSORB PUNISHMENT -4. He was a bit of a dogger maybe, he lost 5 separate times via the tko route to sometimes guys he should not have lost too.

HITTING POWER -7. Again the punching power is way out at 3. He was known as a very solid hard punching body puncher who had a very respectable stoppage percentage. I would have increased it more based on his rep but looking closely at his record he did not really stop many guys of note, however he certainly is not a 3.

OVERALL RATING -5. He goes up one and this is a fair placing for him, a good minor contender a full step up from journeymen but with enough weaknessess that he will struggle badly agianst your cream guys, as a side note pls dont underestimate him too much his quality of opposition is great considering he had a short career.
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Old 11-26-2008, 06:08 AM   #145
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Cleveland Williams

Without doubt one of the finest fighters never to be champion and one of the biggest punchers of all time.

STYLE - Either. Now you know guys that I have changed many fighters from either as im careful in giving out this rating but Williams was a true boxer, puncher. He had very good boxing skills and could change his style based on his opponent.

INTELLECT -7. Again rare for me to up this rating but he as i said was quite capable of changing his game plan for his opponent so should be in the upper tier here.

CONTROL VS BOXER -9. Up one to nine. He did have the usual punchers problems against clever boxers as his fights with guy like Terrell and Machen showed. Im discounting the fight against Ali and afterwards as these were after he was shot. He was always a shell of himself after that incident.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER -11. He was a truly fearsome opponent for unskilled fighters or fellow punchers, Yes he lost twice to Liston but omg he gave him two terrific fights and nearly came away with victories himself if Listons chin had not been so good.

FAST STARTER -0. He had many first round ko's he was dangerous and ready from the first bell.

HITTING POWER -13. I have no doubt about putting his power at this level. He is consistently cited as probably the hardest hitter of his era on a level with Liston if not harder. He is again cited as one of the hardest punchers of all time again and again. With Shavers he must be one of the hardest punchers never to win the title.

PUNCHNG -40. Up this one level to show his underated smooth boxing skills, this guy was much more than a puncher, he was as Herb Goldman says maybe one of the best men never to win the title.

PUNCHES MISSED -62. He was not wild he was a very controlled, smooth, skilled fighter.

OVERALL RATING - 9. Up two. If not for his average chin (it wasant bad just average) I feel he would be a huge threat for a long championship run, even with that if he got the breaks in your uni he didnt get in life he would odds on be champ at some point, a great underrated fighter.
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Old 11-26-2008, 06:40 AM   #146
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Billy Hunter

Hunter is rated as a zero tomato can at the moment in the game, now he wasant a very good fighter but a guy that defeated Miteff twice, Baker, Anthony and got matched up with Liston in the late 50s wasant a tomato can!

STYLE - Slugger.

FIGHTING OUTSIDE - 1. Down two he just wasant capable of boxing for long.

CONDITIONING -8. He was not a one! He was a trial horse pure and simple.

CONTROL VS BOXER -7. Up two he was a trial horse, a journeyman, he sneaked into the ring top ten once but this showed he was capable at least. He was not a tomato can or opponent, he had it within him to pull off the occasional result and he was a respectable name to have on your record.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER -8. Up two see above.

CHIN VS KNOCKDOWN -4. Degraded by one step, it has to be said thouh he was floored a lot sometimes even in his victories.

KILLER INSTINCT -7. Up three, there is no evidence to give him such a low killer instinct he stopped 11 men in his 19 wins, he was an average finisher.

AGRESSIVNESS - 7. Again up three. A seven is an avergae ok score for agressivness again its a good score for him.

ENDURANCE -7. Degraded one step, many of his stoppages come in the late rounds, he often ran out of puff and then ideas.

FIGHT ON ROPES -3. He was not a one here, this is an avergae score for below average fighters.

HITTING POWER -4. Up two. He stopped Miteff twice, and Tony Anthony, he wasant a powder puff guy, just a solid average puncher.

PUNCHING - 34. Up two steps, be very careful in making this category too low, along with control factor its the most important category in the simulation. Every step of 2 points is a huge effect in the game if you set this two low a fighter has no chance of being competative. Remember it can and should represnt hand speed, punching accuracy and overall boxing skills, and should be a combination of all three depending on the fighter you are trying to model. Try to take 38 as an average then increase or decrease from their as your model.
If a guy has defeated ranked opposition in his time be very careful about putting it in the 30 or worse mark.

OVERALL RATING 2. Up two. This is much fairer, in nice trial horse country but a step above those nasty zero tomato cans.
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Old 11-26-2008, 07:40 AM   #147
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Brian London

London was one of the luckiest fighters during this era getting two title cracks neither which he deserved as both champs Patterson and Ali were looking for easy defences, however he was a minor contender who was in the lower reaches of the top ten for quite a few years.

STYLE - Slugger. Def not a boxer/puncher, his style was a brawling puncher even london himself says this.

FIGHT OUTSIDE -1. Not much boxing ability, this was jsut not his style.

CONDITIONING -1. Wow im giving out a one here lol. Probably known as his greatest asset over his career was his fitness, conditioning and stamina, a great quote from London is "I might not have been able to fight much but I was very, very fit".

CONTROL VS SLUGGER - 9. Up one. Did better against fellow brawlers, struggled versus boxers like Cooper, Patterson, Ali, Machen etc. Against Brawlers he was competative.

CHIN VS KNOCKDOWN - 2. Up two, this might surprise you but actually if you study him closely he had a pretty decent chin, the vast majority of his stoppage losses come from tko's,cuts or him quitting for various reasons. his absorb punishment rating will be terrible but his chin is actually decent.

CHIN VS KNOCKOUT -3. Up one as above his chin was a bit more vulnerable once he was down but again average surprisingly.

RECOVERY - 2. Up 2, even his tkos are a bit unique, he didnt often go down multiple times, he just stopped fighting back, forcing the ref to stop the bouts.

ABSORB PUNISHMENT -5. Degraded two steps, the worst possible rating, he is often descibed as courageous, sorry I just cant agree, If you look at his record and research him in the cold light of day he stopped fighting again and again, I want to model lots of stoppages against him but without every time multiple trips to the canvas, sorry Brian you deserve the worst rating here.

KILLER INSTINCT -7. Up one, he stopped 26 opponents he could finish when required.

AGRESSIVNESS -8. He was a plow foward bullish fighter.

ENDURANCE -9. See his condioning rating, one of his best attributes, nearly gave him a 10 but his fade against Patterson stopped me.

DEFENSE - +5. Slighty degraded. He had no defense, wasant particuarly skilled and led with his chin.

HITTING POWER -8. He was a very solid hitter and stopped 26 men from 37 victories. He had a good hook and right hand and often wore down his opponent in a few rounds. This rating needed upping as his solid power and conditioning was what kept him in the bottom half of that top ten so long.

COUNTERPUNCHING -32. Degraded three steps. He was by no stretch of the imagination a counter puncher, I sometimes think these numbers have been pulled from thin air as they are so wrong. He was somewhat slow and with sluggers with no penchant for countering I feel its a good rule of thumb to have a drop of two steps from there punching rating to their countering rating.

OVERALL RATING -5. Up one into the minor contender rating, not a bad fighter but I bet he wont get two title shots as in real life.

Last edited by djday45; 11-26-2008 at 07:41 AM.
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Old 11-26-2008, 10:53 AM   #148
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Mike DeJohn

De John was a very big puncher who didnt have much more to him than that but was a minor contender in the late 50's due to his power.

DRAW POWER -3. up one, his style and power made him a minor draw.

INTELLECT -5. up one, im careful that I dont like this attribute to low unless the fighter is either very bad or known as stupid in the ring a 5 or 6 is a avergae score here.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER -9. Up one. he was most dangerous against fellow punchers his biggest losses came to the quality boxers of the period.

CHIN VS KNOCKDOWN -4. Improved one step, he had a below average chin, but at the same time he lasted 6 rounds against Liston. He tended to collpase in fights once hurt so im improving this a touch and degrading his recovery the same amount.

RECOVERY -4. See above.

KILLER INSTINCT -8. Up two. Was known as an excellent finisher once his big bombs hit home.

ENDURANCE -7. degraded one step, like many one dimensional big pucnhers he often ran out of gas and had atoppages and kncokdowns against him in the last stages of fights.

FAST STARTER -0. He had quite a few 1st round stoppages and should be ready from the off.

FIGHT ON ROPES -3. Not exactly a master on the defensive.

DEFENSE - +4. Degraded one step, he was not a defensive boxer, he let it all hang out to get his punches in.

HITTING POWER -11. Up 3. This is his big one his big boon. The power in his fists. i consider anything 10 plus here to be one punch ko power and he certainly had that according to the research. For example Chuvalo says that DeJohn and Foreman hit the hardest of all his opponents.
Im keeping it scaled back at 11 despite this kind of endorsement due to him not stopping many good quality opponents.

OVERALL RATING -5. Up one. This looks like as normal a good overall rating for a minor contender who is dangerous but also has extrem weaknessess.

Last edited by djday45; 11-26-2008 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 11-26-2008, 11:38 AM   #149
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Caesar Brion

I have a confession to make as a kid with the board game Brion was one of my favourite fighters in the game. It was something partly to do with his name "Caesar" and partly he seemed a bit exotic as he was from South America.
His title bout card back then overrated him more than a bit, his current incarnation underates him a bit, the truth is something in between.

Brion was really a quality journeyman and gatekeeper in the division in the late forties and early fifties. His huge plus was durability. He was only stopped once right at the end of his career and this guy went in twice against Joe Louis! A faded louis too be sure but he still went 20 rounds with him.

Again as normal if i dont mention the rating i agree with it.

CHIN VS KNOCKDOWN -1. Upgraded one step, he was an immensley dura le fighter. This was his one big strength in the ring, he just would not be taken out. Im tempted to take him to Chuvalo levels but am holding back simpley cos he does not have George's amazing level of competition.

CHIN VS KNOCKOUT -1. See Above.

RECOVERY -1. See Above.

ABSORB PUNISHMENT -1. Up two levels. I'm discounting the Holman result as it was right at the end for him, this guy just did not get stopped.

HITTING POWER -5. Up one, he was a solid good puncher with a nice chopping right hand.

OVERALL RATING -6. Up one. Despite being a 6 he is really a quality journeyman who might sneak into your top ten occasionally. The game to my mind overates durability in the overall rating calculation, so despite being a 6 he will still lose quite a few decisions. The game had him on the money apart from his durability.

Last edited by djday45; 11-26-2008 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 11-26-2008, 09:35 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by djday45 View Post
I just reduced it down one from seven so it wont be a massive change, my thinking is a bit old school here anyway in I come from the board game background version of the game, in which you were always cautioned by Jim in using the strategies too much anyway so im quite happy when they use their normal "style" which for Rocky will be bulling inside anyway, its all present in the ratings he has which total up as his "style".
I have an interview with Rocky in which he said that he had an advantage over taller fighters in that - they had to punch down at him. Punching down actually decreases power. I also have an old Ring Magazine from back when Liston was champ. It was given to me by my Grandfather. In it, there's an interview with Charlie Goldman. He said, "If Rocky fought Liston I'd have him with his head in Liston's chest all night long banging the body." Rocky said that by punching level and punching up, he could generate more power than his opponent. He also said that Walcott and Moore floored him because:

1. They hit him harder than any other fighters including Joe Louis
2. They generated that kind of power because they were his size and their punches were parallel or straight.

When he and Ali traded real body shots during the filming of their movie in 1970, Ali said he couldn't believe how hard the "old man" punched and said that he was glad to not have fought him in his prime.

I'm sure he was being polite, but I doubt that he was making that up, either.
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Old 11-27-2008, 08:57 PM   #151
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Dean, I used to look in from time to time, and when you went on holidays I forgot to come back, so let me say now how much we appreciate the time you take to do these ratings.
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Old 11-28-2008, 01:00 AM   #152
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Dean, I used to look in from time to time, and when you went on holidays I forgot to come back, so let me say now how much we appreciate the time you take to do these ratings.
Thks Bomber, much appreciated.
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Old 11-28-2008, 01:32 AM   #153
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Pat McMurtry

McMurtry is a forgotten, obscure fighter now but he was a good solid contender of the late 50's and nearly secured a match with champ Patterson. The game has him down very well and these are only small modifications.

DRAW POWER -3. Reduce this down somewhat as part of McMurtry's problem was his obscurity nationally once you got beyond his strong local following.

CONDITIONING -2. You know I hate giving out ones here lol. He was a very clean living fighter and good trainer however.

ENDURANCE -8. Down one, nothng to indicate he is outstanding in this area an 8 here is ok.

HITTING POWER - 8. Up one, had the rep as a very strong puncher and knockout man anhe is d indeed he does have a very impressive ko percentage, however his quality of opposition is not that great and when he stepped up he failed to take out his opponent, despite his rep I cannot raise it into the one punch ko power territory.

OVERALL RATING -6. Remains the same, thats it, very few ammendments he is accuate as he is for the great majority of the ratings given him.
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Old 11-28-2008, 01:53 AM   #154
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Dick Richardson

Maybe the least regarded of the four British heavies of the late 50s and early 60s, Richardson however was a minor contender and I offer some ammendments here.

FOUL RATING - Often. He was a very dirty fighter, he was infamous actually for his butting and lost two contests because of it, he often drew people into nasty brawls ie Ezzard Charles.

FIGHT INSIDE -3. This dovetails in with the above rating, he was most at home brawling and getting under the other guys skin and this should be his most popular strategy.

CONDITIONING -3. Grrrr all those ones lol. He was an ok trainer but his carrer was brief and he sometime sfought too often and was erractic.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER -9. His problem was against boxers and many of his decision losses came to them, he was much happier against guys on front of him.

CHIN VS KNOCKOUT - 2. Up one. His two ko losses came right at the end of his career he was never ko'd before then.

RECOVERY -3. Degraded one. But he was suspectable to losing it once hurt as per his tko losses and his near stoppage defeat against DeJohn.

KILLER INSTINCT - 8. Up two he was a good finisher and had 24 stoppages from 31 wins.

AGGRESSIVNESS -8. Up two, he was an agressive, nasty brawler who was quite willing to trade.

HITTING POWER -7. Up two. A solid puncher, cpable of hurting opponents and stopping them but not a real dangerous puncher.

COUNTERPUNCHING -32. Degraded one step, he was not a smart counterer by any means this reflects that.

PUNCHES MISSED -64. He could be quite wild his style dicated that and this worsening reflects that.

OVERALL RATING -5. Somewhat underated by the game, he could be a tough customer and nasty to fight, no one looked foward to facing him but at the same time his lack of boxing skills really held him back and he is very vulnerable to boxers with good skills and chins. A minor bottom level top ten guy in your uni.
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Old 11-28-2008, 06:28 AM   #155
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Ernie Terrell

Terrell is one of he great sixties heavies that does not really get the credit for how good he was, this was partly of course due to him being totally overshadowed by Ali and also it was his damned style that although very very effective was so dull people would rather watch paint drying.

STANCE - Left Handed. Im using this to represent what a spoiler he was and that he was very, very hard to fight. He normally imposed his terrible style on the other guy and won simple as that, a very frustrating man to fight.

FIGHT OUTSIDE -3. His style was back off, jab, jab, jab, clutch, clutch. He was very good at it indeed.

COVER UP -3. He was a very effective defensive fighter, when in trouble he would smother and frustrate his opponent.

CLINCHING -74. Way up, this increase is not an indication of a lack of movement, much more that he was one of the most effective men at holding in history.

INTELLECT -9. Up one. A very clever fighter, who midway through his early career formulated his style to make full use of his abilities and physical attributes.

CONTROL VS BOXER -12. Up one. Im increasing this and slugger because although very good I also want it to reflect his height and reach and style (he was 6 ft 6 inches). You guys know that here is where i think size and reach properties of fighters should be modelled and Terrell qualifies.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER -11. Up one. see above.

CHIN VS KNOCKDOWN - 1. Up one. The game underates his chin. He was only floored once against Bonavena and his two stoppage losses were by tko route, the guy was very hard to reach, when you did he could take it. The only reason im not making these zeroes is because he did not face that many huge hitters.

CHIN VS KNOCKOUT -1. Up one. Never ko'd see above.

RECOVERY -1. Up one. See above, he never collapsed in fights, he had good recovery powers.

KILLER INSTINCT -4. degraded two. He was way too cautious for him to rate well here. He scored 21 stoppages but these were from his superior skills.

AGRESSIVNESS -6. A very, very cautious boxer, a real counterer which means this has to be at this low range.

HITTING POWER -4. Up two, a light hitter but not as light as a 2. As I said before half his wins came via the stoppage route and a four sits nicely with that.

PUNCHING -42. Degraded one step, im switching round this rating and countering to represent he was more a counterer than a leader.

COUNTERPUNCHING -44. See above.

OVERALL RATING -11. Up one. I feel he was very unlcky to come along the same time as Ali, which meant he could never be champ, at another time he would have, omg it would have been boring but he would have made it i feel.
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Old 11-28-2008, 11:44 AM   #156
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Terrell, much like Holmes is sometimes overlooked because he was the guy who followed Ali, and Ernie is overshadowed because he fought in the same era, but as you say he was a very solid fighter.
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Old 11-28-2008, 12:19 PM   #157
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Muhummad Ali

Ooh ive been looking foward to this guy, bit intimidating but going to give it my best shot.

Now before I start im going to state right off the bat I think people make a pretty classic mistake with Ali, its this - They try and make him an amalgam of his two careers, pre his ban and post his ban. This is impossible after the ban he was a very different fighter, past his best and his body could never get back to what it was, he still achieved great things but just imagine how dominant he would have been if he hadant had those lost years.

Im going to just concentrate on the pre ban Ali, that dancing, laughing young master is the true Muhummad Ali.

Im going to give you the whole rating, as I changed him a while back but will only explain stuff I think ive changed from the original.

STANCE - Left. This represents him psyching out and playing with his opponents heads before the bell so much there own game plan went out of the window and instead they bought into Ali's games. He was a master at this.

STYLE - Boxer.

FOULS - Seldom.

FIGHT INSIDE -1. Never really comfortable inside, not that he couslnt do it, he jsut didnt want to.

FIGHTING OUTSIDE -4. He was all about movement, hsi footwork was dazzling the best in division history.

COVER UP -2.

GO FOR KNOCKOUT -2.

CLINCHING -65. Quite a way down, because I want to show off his movement and footwork and Ali shuffle lol. Dont be afraid to make ratings big if the fighters attribute was, this makes them really stand out in play.

DRAW POWER -10.

CONDITIONING -3. This is an intresting one, Ali was a great physical athlete an amazing one. But, he didnt like to train and also loved women, now when I say he didnt like to train thats not to say he wasant an amazing trainer! A contridction I know, but so was Ali, This is one of his few weaknesses that he sometimes underestimated opponents he thought unworthy of him. So im going with a three here. Purely physically he should be a one but I want to model that weakness and I think I can do that here.

INTELLECT -10.

CONTROL VS BOXER -14. I have uppsed these quite a bit because they show how Ali with his physical gifts and speed dominated fights so completley in his younger incarnation. Against sluggers im giving a 15 as he always gave his best performances against the monster punchers of the division and soemtimes just sometimes a boxer would slightly throw him off his game ie Jones, Cooper, Norton. I trult beleive Ali was the greatest heavy of all time and im giving him control factors to suit. Who was faster? who dominated fights more than he? who had the complete package of skill, speed, athletic power and physical attributes? His nearest rival in greatness I feel is Joe Louis who would have struggled against him because he did against fighters that gave him a lot of movement.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER -15. See above.

CHIN VS KNOCKDOWN -1. One of the best chins in heavy history Ali could not be stopped period and was only down a handful of times despite facing a series of the greatest punchers in the divisions history.

CHIN VS KNOCKOUT -0. He was never ko'd end of story.

RECOVERY -0. Amazing powers of recovery for a great example look at the Cooper fight. When he was rarely hurt he always recovered quickly.

RESISTANCE TO CUTS -1.

ABSORB PUNISHMENT -1. The amount of punishment he could withstand was beyond human it seems to me.

KILLER INSTINCT -7.

AGRESSIVNESS -7.

ENDURANCE -10

DEFENSE - -6

FAST STARTER -3.

FIGHT ON ROPES -0. Has a fighter ever been better on the ropes.

HITTING POWER -7. Was temped to lower it but looking at his record pre ban he really was very deadly.

PUNCHING -46. The equal of Patterson in speed and accuracy, maybe the fastest in history, so fast ko punches sometimes were not seen lol.

COUNTER PUNCHING -44. Slighty worse than the punching rating just to show he although having magnificent reactions was not suited to it so much personality wise, he wanted to make things happen, not wait for them!

PUNCHES MISSED -60.

OVERALL RATING -15. This rating should see him by "the Greatest" in more than name in this division. Remember this is him pre ban not after.
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Old 11-28-2008, 12:44 PM   #158
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Great Ali Revision!!!!

Are you going to revise the preprime and postprime ratings? I would hope so!
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Old 12-03-2008, 04:58 AM   #159
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Cassius Clay (An early career Ali)

As requested is an early carrer Ali. In the game currently I would advise if you know the fighter well enough to make a seperate rating for there less experianced version, It seems to me that the ratings changes at beginning and pre prime can be very harsh in their reductions and as they seem to be almost random in what they choose to effect I would use them very sparingly.

Now Ali is not your normal boxing novice as he had got a large amount of amateur experience (A gold medal for example) and his handlers seemed very, very confident in his abilities (agreeing to fight Miteff in only his 9th bout for example).

I would use this rating until he actually fights for the title against whoever that may be and on that night use his prime rating I gave before. He seemed to come of age that night and remember before he was still quite lightly regarded by most experts and not given much hope against Liston.

If I dont mention a ratig use the prime rating above.

STRATERGIES - Reduce them all down by one he was still learning the ropes tactically.

CLINCHING -67. Degraded two, Obviously he moved greatly in his early career but this represents him perfecting his style of stinging once he got to his championship reign.

DRAW POWER - 6. Degraded four. Ali only became the huge draw and superstar he was later, some would say much later, at the moment Clay is considered more a draw because many people hate him so much and want to see him beaten up lol. dont forget how unpopular he was in some parts at this time, it still generated box office but Ali went on a huge changing arc of perception with the public.

CONDITIONING -2. Improved one. He was more disciplined as Clay and you should improve the rating accordingly, Dont give him a one however there were still many distractions in that camp.

INTELLECT -8. Degraded two, This just represents he got better with seasoning and experience.

CONTROL VS BOXER AND SLUGGER -Degrade both by two. Again this shows his control of fights could be challenged at this age ala Jones and Cooper.

CHIN VS KNOCKDOWN -2. Degraded one, Slightly more vulnerable in this era as Cooper showed, not because of his chin but because he took more chances, and he was not quite as defensively sound as in his prime years, tuck that chin in Cassius!

ENDURANCE - 9. Degraded one, As with most young fighters they should take a small hit here until they learn to pace themselves at the higher number of rounds.

DEFENSE -4. Degraded one step, Im of the firm believer that Ali did almost everything wrong defensively if you look at traditional boxing defensive techniques. He ignored them, instead he did things that lesser athletes would have been crusified if they had tried, such as leaning away from punches and there hands dangling by their sides to name but two. Ali made this work because he had prob the best natural reactions in heavyweight history. At this stage of his career he takes a hit here because he was still perfecting the style and sometimes got caught.

FIGHT ON ROPES -1. Degraded one step, Clay had not yet perfected his rope a dope, he didnt need to.

HITTING POWER - 5. Degraded two steps, Clay had not fully learned to harness his power yet and set down on his punches so was still going ten rounds with guys like he shudnt. He will still take out the vast majority of guys especially as they will be weaker competition but hopefully one of two will surprise and go the distance.

COUNTERPUNCHING -42. Degraded one step, clay at this stage was quite a undisiplined counterer and this reflects this, he still releid just on his reflexes not experience.

PUNCHES MISSED -62. Degraded two steps. This reflects not lesser accuracy but that he tended to flick his punches in the early days especially the jab without any real intent.

OVERALL RATING -13. Down two, He wills till be far two much for nearly everyone in this era but hopefully every now and then a Jones result will occur and he will get a scare.
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Old 12-03-2008, 05:53 AM   #160
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Bob Cleroux

Cleroux is an almost totally forgotten fighter today, but he was a great contender in the early 60's who finished with a great record against quality opposition and was never stopped. He just had all sorts of troubles against slick boxers.

As always if i dont mention a rating you know i agree with it.

FIGHT OUTSIDE -1. Down one. He had average footwork at best and found it very hard to compete with moving boxers.

GO FOR KNOCKOUT - 3. Up one. He was a quality puncher who had the nous and ability to stop excellent opponents.

DRAW POWER -2. Down one. Apart from his beloved Canada Cleroux was always overlooked and is nearly totally forgotten today. he unlike his fellow Canadian Chuvalo (who he beat two out of three) never received the mega fights against Ali, Frazier etc and suffers historically because of that.

CONDITIONING -2. Up one. He always came into his bouts in excellent nic.

CONTROL VS BOXER -7. Down two. Big drop here and its the only way to accurately portray the man. He had terrible trouble all though his career with clever boxers, his losses to Folley are only the tip of the iceberg.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER - 11. Up one, in contrast to this he was great against fellow punchers and swarmers beating Chuvalo twice and Williams for example.
I know traditional ratings in the game dislike a differance of more thna two between the two control factors but I flatley disagree and to be plain its the only way of acuurately modelling sometimes a fighters results who did so differently against varying styles. Cleroux is absolutley one of those fighters.

CHIN VS KNOCKOUT -0. Not sure if i changed this but he was never stopped and had an amazing chin only slightly less tougher than George.

KILLER INSTINCT -8. Up one. he had a really top quality stoppage percentage and is reflected here.

DEFENSE -0. Improved one step. Although he had trouble with movers he is described as being a excellent fighter, very solid and not a face first guy at all. This will help him against fellow punchers and ensure he performs well against them.

HITTING POWER -9. Up one. Due to his ko percentage and stoppage record im tempted to go higher but im going for a 9 as when researched they dont talk about his great power overly more the fact he had excellent power but this was added to him him being a fine overall fighter overall who was a natural puncher, so im going for a 9 which ranks him with say Patterson in power which I feel is about right.

PUNCHING -36. Up one step. He was on the slow side but his good skills improve this slightly, he was not too bad in this department.

OVERALL RATING -10. Up one, the game had him pretty good but this rating really rams home the fact that he will beat most sluggers of the era but lose to nearly all the top boxers at the same time. He should be more remembered as a "nearly great". Once again with very durable fighters the game boosts the overall rating slightly higher than I feel they should be.
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