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Old 11-19-2008, 08:14 AM   #101
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Willie Pastrano

Pastrano is fighting as a heavyweight for the period covered by my uni, but the TBCB rating is as a light heavy. Any suggested modifications?

I simmed one bout and adjusted by having him conditioned as "overweight"--results were a little mixed but somewhat realistic.
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:23 AM   #102
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Bob Baker

As per usual if I dont mention a rating take it that im keeping it the same as per the database.

Baker is somewhat underated in the game as is, He was a golden gloves champ was considered a top ten contender by ring magazine from 1950 to 1956 and defeated amoung others Marty Marshall, Jimmy Bivins, Nino Valdez, Caesar Brion, Joe Baksi, Jimmy Slade, Rex Layne, John Holman, George Chuvalo and Dick Richardson. He also lost quite a few times and its this erratic up and down nature of his career we must try to model.

STANCE - Left Handed. Im using this as before to represent an aspect of his style he was known somewhat as awkward and a spoiler and his nickname was "the grinder" we will use this category to show up the fact he made people look bad.

GO FOR KNOCKOUT - 1. Although a light puncher against top opposition he did sometimes rarely explode so this should be a minor option.

CONDITIONING - 11. He was not a 1 thats for sure, despite research I cant come up with anything concrete as to why he was so inconsistent but he was! So the obvious ratings here are a 9 or 11. As im not sure if the prob was mental or physical and it gives an increased chance of an issue at 50% im going with an 11.

CONTROL VS BOXER - 8. Reducing this down one as many of his losses were against boxers such as Carter, Machen, Moore etc if he could survive against them most of his big wins were against sluggers.

CHIN VS KNOCKDOWN -2. Improving this by one as although he was ko'd twice he didnt often go down in the first place.

RECOVERY -2. Again an improvement of one as he didnt collapse in his losses and his recovery powers were ok.

ABSORB PUNISHMENT -2. Improved by one he was only stopped once by TKO by Moore which is no shame and a good solid two here is a pretty fair rating for him.

ENDURANCE -8. Up by one, he shows no major stamina problems and he won most of his fights against contenders by decision so he should be about average here which an 8 score is.

FIGHT ON ROPES - 2. Up one he was a cute boxer so should be on the good side here with ropes know how.

HITTING POWER -3. Slight up here as he was a light hitter but not truly powder puff. He much like Carter had a good percentage of stoppages against light opposition.

PUNCHES LANDED - 38. This was way too low at 34. he was not known as slow and had good boxing skills a 38 here and at counterpunching represents that nicely. He should be able to outbox average to good sluggers at this level with his good control factor/defense/PL combo.

COUNTERPUNCHING - 38. See above, keeping it the same level as he had good boxing skills and was seen as a spoiler and awkward.

OVERALL RATING - 6. Up two to 6 which is much fairer he had his limitations thats for sure and with that conditioning rating will be up and down in your rankings but it also shows on his day he was capable of putting in an excellent performance and beating a top ten fighter.
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:36 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by djday45 View Post
Would people like to see some kind of supplementry ratings guide to go along with what is in the manual?

This is only my opinion guys, not trying to set myself up a "guru" on ratings. Tons of guys here have a lot of wonderful boxing knowledge.
I'd love to see it Dean, but only when you have the time.
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:47 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djday45 View Post
Would people like to see some kind of supplementry ratings guide to go along with what is in the manual?

This is only my opinion guys, not trying to set myself up a "guru" on ratings. Tons of guys here have a lot of wonderful boxing knowledge.
I think a supplement from you would be welcome by all---and don't understate your insight and expertise!
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:05 AM   #105
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Toxie Hall

Sparring partner for Marciano Hall was a journeyman and gatekeeper of the 50's heavyweight scene the game has him pretty accurate with some slight mods.

CONDITIONING - 8. He was so not a 1 lol. Giving him the rating off fighting too frequently represents more the fact he was also a regular sparring partner as well as an active fighter. So he would sometimes be taking fights on short notice and taking too much damage sparring.

CONTROL VS BOXER - 8. upping both control factors by one as this is a classic journeyman level who is still capable off pulling off the occasional excellent win like Hall did against Charles and draw against Holman. He could surprise somewhat just not very often.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER - 8. See above.

RESISTANCE TO CUTS - 3. Was stopped twice on cuts and swellings so degrading this one step to reflect that possible weakness.

FIGHT ON ROPES - 2. Improving this one as he was a sparring partner survivor very experianced in taking the Rock's poundings in the gym.

HITTING POWER - 3. Upping this slightly as his stoppage record is not truly terrible. Just as an aside I feel out of all the weight classes if you look at stoppage percentages the big boys should rarely be given ones in this category. even if you up the rating just a couple of points there should always be a slight chance of the huge guys lowering the boom on each other. This factor slowly trickles off once you start sliding down the weight classes but it is a given that these guys pack on average more of a wallop.
The game as a whole often woefully underrates this catergory especially if the fighter is not that well known. Truly bad power ratings should be just as rare as truly great ones I feel.

COUNTERPUNCHING -32. Degrading this one step as really he was most often in survival go the distance mode and having an equal or better counterpunching rating than punches landed should be reserved for more talented fighters or guys who were known as specialists in this area.

OVERALL RATING - 4. remains the same. It is in fact a poor 4 due to his pretty solid chin, he wont win many fights though against good guys or of the same ability, as it should be. Maybe a Mel Turnbow for the 50's lol.
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:58 AM   #106
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Zora Folley

I have got some great research on Folley so feel this rating is pretty accurate.
Along with Machen, Folley is considered the finest heavy of the 50s that didnt get a shot at Pattersons title a highly skilled boxing counterpuncher with a very dangerous right hand producing over 40 stoppages Folley was both ducked and unlucky and also lost big fights at bad times and was accused of a lack of championship heart.

FIGHT INSIDE -1. Reduce by one. Folley was a scientific counter puncher not someone that mixed it up on the inside.

GO FOR KNOCKOUT - 2. A very underated hitter with over 40 stoppages to his name, this strategy was always on the table.

CONDITIONING - 3. Always in good shape but there is evidence that his manager for financial reasons sometimes took fights he didnt need to or when Folley was not ready Liston and the 2nd Jones fight come to mind.

INTELLECT - 9. A very smooth clever operator who would often pick apart his opponents with his scientific patient style and stop them late on.

CONTROL VS BOXER - 11. Both control factors up a point to show he was really a top draw contender, he was in the ring ratings for ten years without a shot at the title and although he had a slight problem with swarmers who wouldnt give him room to counter he defeated nearly all comers.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER - 10. See above.

ABSORB PUNISHMENT - 4. This was said to be Folleys big weakness, a lack of fighting heart, it must be said I think they were right he was stopped 6 times and quit more than once most famously against young Jack Johnson.

ENDURANCE -9. Up one. He was very good indeed at pacing himself and slowly picking apart the opponent and was often had plenty left in the tank at the end of bouts.

DEFENSE -2. He had an excellent defense and this rating has to be improved. He was fast slippery with good movement and his whole style was based on making the other guy miss and coming back with that nasty right hand counter.

HITTING POWER - 8. Way up from the paltry 4 given. He was not a one punch guy but as stated before his right hand counter was his big weapon it was said to hurt like a mule and chopped down many fighters over the years. his fast combinations also were hurtful and he is woefully underated here.

PUNCHES - increase his combos and right hands especially the 3 point crosses as this was his money punch reduce down the hooks and uppercuts.

OVERALL RATING - 10. This is a big step up from 7 but ive no doubt its accurate. it was considered he would have given Patterson a life and death struggle for the title and although due to his lack of chin and heart he might not have wore the belt long he could surely have become champion. He was a top contender for ten years and despite bad defeats was so highly skilled that he was still considered a dangerous threat for the title, One of the crying shames of heavyweight history tht he never got a crack at it in his prime.

OTHER RATINGS
to ensure he adds up to a ten here are his other ratings.

Stance - right handed
style - boxer
fouls - seldom
fight outside - 3
cover up - 2
clinching - 69
draw power - 3
chin vs knockdown - 3
chin vs knockout -3
recovery - 3
resistance to cuts -2
killer instinct - 6
agressivness - 6
defense - -2
fast starter -2
fight on ropes -2
punching -42
counterpunching -44
punches landed -61


Mmmm after typing all that out I use the recalculate button once again and he drops to a 9! bloody game!

Last edited by djday45; 11-21-2008 at 10:41 PM.
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:56 AM   #107
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Keep up the good work.

If you do ever decide to put 'pen to paper' on your rating thoughts please email me a copy.
Me too!
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Old 11-19-2008, 12:01 PM   #108
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I have got some great research on Folley so feel this rating is pretty accurate.
I made all the changes you made and got OR-9, not OR-10. Did you miss reporting another tweak? Maybe I missed something, but I checked and re-checked that I made all the changes
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Old 11-19-2008, 12:01 PM   #109
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Bob Satterfield

An intriguing fighter of huge strengths and weaknessess. This is his heavy rating only.

DRAW POWER - 5. Considering he wasant a top draw contender Satterfield due to his huge power still had quite a following.

CONDITIONING - 4. He was a trail blazer for the crusierweight division. He flipped back and forth between heavy and light heavy for years without really feeling comfortable in either, This rating represents him struggling with being comfortable at heavy.

INTELLECT - 4. Reducing this down by 2 as Satterfield was known to be a face first puncher with only one game plan.


CONTROL VS BOXER - 7. Up by 1 he was a contender and a dangerous fighter even at heavy a 6 here is not accurate. Increasing his control vs slugger by 2 as well to make him a minor contender dangerous especially because of his punch. He struggled much more against boxers his best wins came against punchers like himself.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER -9. See above up by 2.

CHIN VS KNOCKDOWN - 5. degrading this by one. He had a truly awful chin and ive lost count of the amount of times he was floored.

RECOVERY - 4. Again degrading by one. Quite a few occasions where Satterfield went doen many times in a round, he sure was an exciting fighter.

ENDURANCE - 6. He had terrible stamina problems after a few rounds and this really held him back in his career.

FAST STARTER -1. He had many early ko's to his credit so this reflects that.

FIGHT ON ROPES - 3. Not good on the defensive ala most punchers so increasing this by one.

HITTING POWER - 11. up one. known as one of the hardest punchers off all time especially at light heavy (i would rank him a 12 there).

PUNCHES LANDED -36. He was slower than average and crude but not so unskilled for a 34.

OVERALL RATING -4. Remains a 4. He should be even more unpedictable than ever. this is a guy that is stopped by a blown up middleweight La Motta than stops one of the hardest punchers in division history in Williams! go figure.
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Old 11-19-2008, 10:13 PM   #110
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Question A dumb question!

Dean,

No doubt this is right under my rather large nose, but ever since I started playing the pc version of TBCB, I've wondered what specific ratings are affected by career stage and condition status. Is it all of the facters (power, chin, endurance, etc.) or are there some selective elements involved. I'm also a little puzzled along similar line with regard to moving from one weight division to another. I do recall a guide post at Cornerwork that was a basic guide. Still I often wonder what happens on an automatic basis when you selct this factor prior to a match.

Do you have any sort of handle on this?
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Old 11-20-2008, 12:48 AM   #111
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Dean,

No doubt this is right under my rather large nose, but ever since I started playing the pc version of TBCB, I've wondered what specific ratings are affected by career stage and condition status. Is it all of the facters (power, chin, endurance, etc.) or are there some selective elements involved. I'm also a little puzzled along similar line with regard to moving from one weight division to another. I do recall a guide post at Cornerwork that was a basic guide. Still I often wonder what happens on an automatic basis when you selct this factor prior to a match.

Do you have any sort of handle on this?
This has always been a contention in the game with some people including myself due to the fact that the game is quite harsh in its reductions for both age and moving divisions and also in boxing reality no one size fits all.

What I mean by that is that each fighter when they are past their best or for that matter up and coming have differennt characteristics that change. Sometimes a fighter is shot all at once and grows old overnight, other times it is a slow drip drip loss of skills and reactions.

When fighters move around in weight their is a huge disparity in the effects. The game is particuarly harsh here and if you just used the games check boxes you would hardly have any fighter rise in weight and be effective.

In reality many fighters are even more effective at the higher weight due to many factors such as build or just growing slowly into the weight class. Other fighters rise and its a disaster as they are over the natural class their frames and build can take or it was done to quickly for a championship match and its outcome is not good.

I created a chart years ago that went onto cornerwork do you want me to try and dig it out?
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Old 11-20-2008, 06:06 AM   #112
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I believe that this is the auto-adjust impact for career stage Prof.
Attached Files
File Type: xls CS_Adj_Chart(1).xls (16.5 KB, 176 views)
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Old 11-20-2008, 07:36 AM   #113
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Roy Harris

Harris again a minor contender with soft opposition still had some good attributes.

STYLE - Boxer. Was a stand up snappy boxer with a good jab not a boxer/puncher.

FIGHT INSIDE -1. Rarely worked inside, much prefered movement and distance to use his hand and foot speed.

FIGHTING OUTSIDE - 3. See above, this was his strength a good boxer.

GO FOR KNOCKOUT - 1. Had poor power, and ahd little hope of finishing contests against contenders.

CONDITIONING - 2. Was a good trainer, im just careful in giving out the best rating here, his career was not a long one (55-61)

CONTROL VS BOXER - 9. Was a minor contender as I said who did better against fellow boxers, his level of competition is light however and he failed badly against top punchers.

RECOVERY -4. degraded by one. In his two biggest career bouts against Liston and Patterson his recovery powers failed him badly.

AGRESSIVNESS - 8. Down one, he was an aggressive boxer but not a bull.

DEFENSE - 0. Had an effective defense mainly due to his excellent footwork and boxing smarts.

HITTING POWER - 3. Reduce down by one. was a pretty light puncher, relied on his jab and combos to score points.

PUNCHING - 40. Up four here. This was his strength was known to be quite fast and accurate.

COUNTERPUNCHING -38. Up two, to keep it in range with the punches, not a counterer as such as he was quite a come foward boxer but he had the reflexes to take avantage of mistakes.

OVERALL RATING - 5. Up one slightly as the game did not take into account his speed and boxing skills, he is still a minor contender however who will prove quite fragile.
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Old 11-20-2008, 08:45 AM   #114
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Willi Besmanoff

Really a journeyman fighter. If I dont mention the rating as usual you know I agree with it.

FOULS - Often. Willi was DQ once and was known as quite a rough fighter to tangle with sometimes.

GO FOR KNOCKOUT - 1. He had twenty ko's to his name so although a light hitter he should have this option.

CONDITIONING - 8. Fights too frequently, suits him as the archetypeal journeyman. Willi often fought nearly every month during his career.

CONTROL VS BOXER -8. This control factors up a point. Besmanoff although never rated by the ring in its annual top ten was always in that next group of fighters under the rankings acting like a gatekeeper to the ratings a solid 8 here in this suits him well.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER - 6. Down one, all his worst performances seemed to come against pure punchers like Chuvalo, Liston, Foster, only against boxers did he put in his best results and even in defeat performed well eg. Ali See above.

CHIN VS KNOCKOUT -3. Degrade this by two. Umm not sure what they were thinking here as he was ko'd 11 times. Yes they were later on in his career but it has to be said he was still very vulnerable even so. I think a 3 is still a little generous maybe.

RECOVERY -4. Degrading this substantially again as he often fell apart in stoppage losses, the first Chuvalo fight down six times is a great example.

RESISTANCE TO CUTS -3. An improvment here, as although he had a problem with cuts and it effected a couple of results it wasant at a omg Henry Cooper level of problem.

ABSORB PUNISHMENT - 3. A one here? I dont think so he was tko'd seven times five of those due to two much punishment.

HITTING POWER -3. Up two. He had 19 ko's on his record against light opposition from 51 victories. A power rating of three is about right.

OVERALL RATING -3. Down one, the game overated his durability, he will and should get stopped often depending on the opposition you throw him in against (stopped 11 times in reality) and act as a limited gatekeeper in your universe.
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Old 11-20-2008, 12:16 PM   #115
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I believe that this is the auto-adjust impact for career stage Prof.
Thanks! Before I go off guesing, could you help me out one more time? What do the numbers in parenthesis and those without any signify?

Please excuse my stupidity---there's something in the Northern New Jersey water supply that impairs my thinking!
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Old 11-20-2008, 12:19 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by djday45 View Post
This has always been a contention in the game with some people including myself due to the fact that the game is quite harsh in its reductions for both age and moving divisions and also in boxing reality no one size fits all.

What I mean by that is that each fighter when they are past their best or for that matter up and coming have differennt characteristics that change. Sometimes a fighter is shot all at once and grows old overnight, other times it is a slow drip drip loss of skills and reactions.

When fighters move around in weight their is a huge disparity in the effects. The game is particuarly harsh here and if you just used the games check boxes you would hardly have any fighter rise in weight and be effective.

In reality many fighters are even more effective at the higher weight due to many factors such as build or just growing slowly into the weight class. Other fighters rise and its a disaster as they are over the natural class their frames and build can take or it was done to quickly for a championship match and its outcome is not good.

I created a chart years ago that went onto cornerwork do you want me to try and dig it out?
Dean,

Thanks! I wasn't aware that you created the chart. I already have it in my files. Now that I know you put it together, I a have a lot more faith in it. Of course, I'll do it case-by-case, but I think the chart provides an excellent foundation---I strongly urge others to use it.
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Old 11-20-2008, 02:31 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by professordp View Post
Thanks! Before I go off guesing, could you help me out one more time? What do the numbers in parenthesis and those without any signify?

Please excuse my stupidity---there's something in the Northern New Jersey water supply that impairs my thinking!
Pardon me for dumping that on you 'blind'.

Each number represents an addition to or (subtraction from) the prime rating for a given attribute. If no rating for a non-prime stage exists, the sim will create one based on that chart. The 60/40 % within each stage just allows for there to be some variation. Otherwise, every fighter would be scaled back at post prime in exactly the same way.

The neat thing about 2.5 is that the ratings are generated and visable so we can tinker with them. In 2.0, it was all behind the curtain.
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Old 11-20-2008, 02:54 PM   #118
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Pardon me for dumping that on you 'blind'.

Each number represents an addition to or (subtraction from) the prime rating for a given attribute. If no rating for a non-prime stage exists, the sim will create one based on that chart. The 60/40 % within each stage just allows for there to be some variation. Otherwise, every fighter would be scaled back at post prime in exactly the same way.

The neat thing about 2.5 is that the ratings are generated and visable so we can tinker with them. In 2.0, it was all behind the curtain.
Thanks--I suspected that was how it worked, but if you had any idea how many times my "supicions" blew up in my face, you'd understand why I had to be certain.
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Old 11-20-2008, 10:18 PM   #119
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I used to create "Overrated and Underrated" versions of fighters back in the 1980's. My reasoning was, I had friends who saw the same fighters from two different angles and we'd argue about - in a polite way.

Keep in mind, this was back in the card days.

So, we had a Rocky Marciano in two versions - a 10 and a 12.
The 10 had a chin rating of 2. The 12 had a chin rating of 1. That was the old KDR 1 rating.

My one friend said, "If Rocky were getting punched by today's larger, stronger fighters, I think a 2 would be more accurate."

In my estimation, a 1 better reflected his chin because his defense would cause him to be no stranger to the canvas - even against some lesser fighters.

Today, with a revamped ratings system, Rocky's defense is a 2 and his chin a 1. To this day, I still find myself creating "pro and con" versions of certain fighters. It keeps even the most "cranky" experts happy.
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Old 11-21-2008, 07:17 AM   #120
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I made all the changes you made and got OR-9, not OR-10. Did you miss reporting another tweak? Maybe I missed something, but I checked and re-checked that I made all the changes
Mmm, Not sure Thunder, mine is def coming up with a 10. I must have missed something?
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