I know I'm really playihg historical because - Page 2

swampdragon · 06-11-2017, 08:47 PM

This is the Tri-State League. I have no idea of what's available for 1909 other than BB-Ref and possibly but not necessarily TSN. I'm not trying to be critical. I'm genuinely interested in sources and methods here, simply because I'm a bit of a baseball stat nerd, and these just don't seem right. Maybe you've discovered a new book for me to buy.

Spritze · 06-11-2017, 09:32 PM

Reach and Spalding guides published in whatever year you are interested in are a good source as they were current at the time. Sheesh. This ain't rocket engineering.

swampdragon · 06-11-2017, 11:02 PM

None of that tells me which years Swacina pitched in and which source you used. The question isn't rocket science, either.

Spritze · 06-12-2017, 12:17 AM

Well we just keep going in circles. I keep saying Spalding and Reach and you keep ignoring the answer. The years are in OOTP under real stats.

I'll simply bow out now. No point in continuing. I will double check when time allows. Unless I don't. I really need a break from this. Too many people have all the information they need but are too lazy to look it up.

Movin' on.

swampdragon · 06-12-2017, 01:09 PM

Just for kicks, I started a 1919 game with historical minors.I checked Harry Swacina, who was the Shreveport Gasser starter at 1B, and I looked at the real life pitching stats in OOTP. This is easily verifiable by anyone else who wants to do the same thing..

Among other absurdities:

1. Swacina is listed as having pitched over 200 innings for the 1914 Baltimore Terrapins, a Federal League team, and striking out over 300 batters. I and everyone else have reliable Federal League stats. Swacina never pitched an inning for the Terrapins.
2. According to OOTP, Swacina then came back and had a 7-7 record for the Terrapins in 1915, striking out over 12 batters per 9 innings. Once again, the real Swacina never pitched an inning for the team.
3. He is listed with the identical 7-7 record for the 1919 Shreveport Gassers despite not having a record of having pitched for them in any other source.
4. Every listed season has Swacina with exactly a .500 W-L record and striking out over 12 batters per nine innings. No one in the deadball era had that strikeout rate. I suppose it could happen with a small sample size, but I can confidently say that these stats are wrong. Every season at exactly .500 doesn't pass a reality check.

My only conclusion has to be that these "Real Life" stats were invented or erroneously compiled rather than pulled from Spalding or Reach.

Spritze · 06-12-2017, 01:25 PM

Fixed

DawnBTVS · 06-12-2017, 08:16 PM

Did the hard work myself and looked at the Reach Guide for 1914-1915... http://library.si.edu/digital-librar...alame19141phil

Swacina is only listed under Batting and 1st Base Fielding.

Baltimore Pitchers listed under the Pitching stats: Quinn (339.1 IP), Suggs (318.1 IP), Conley (125.1 IP), Bailey (129.1 IP), F. Smith (182 IP), and Wilhelm (238 IP).

Sorry, Spritze, love your work but at least for 1914 and Swacina's pitching I'm not seeing it. I also tried the Spalding Guide for 1915 but couldn't find the Federal League listed there.

actionjackson · 06-12-2017, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DawnBTVS

Did the hard work myself and looked at the Reach Guide for 1914-1915... http://library.si.edu/digital-librar...alame19141phil

Swacina is only listed under Batting and 1st Base Fielding.

Baltimore Pitchers listed under the Pitching stats: Quinn (339.1 IP), Suggs (318.1 IP), Conley (125.1 IP), Bailey (129.1 IP), F. Smith (182 IP), and Wilhelm (238 IP).

Sorry, Spritze, love your work but at least for 1914 and Swacina's pitching I'm not seeing it. I also tried the Spalding Guide for 1915 but couldn't find the Federal League listed there.

Thanks for the link DawnBTVS. Very cool.

alkeiper · 06-13-2017, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DawnBTVS

Did the hard work myself and looked at the Reach Guide for 1914-1915... http://library.si.edu/digital-librar...alame19141phil

Swacina is only listed under Batting and 1st Base Fielding.

Baltimore Pitchers listed under the Pitching stats: Quinn (339.1 IP), Suggs (318.1 IP), Conley (125.1 IP), Bailey (129.1 IP), F. Smith (182 IP), and Wilhelm (238 IP).

Sorry, Spritze, love your work but at least for 1914 and Swacina's pitching I'm not seeing it. I also tried the Spalding Guide for 1915 but couldn't find the Federal League listed there.

I see the site has several other Reach Guides. Those are utterly fantastic.

actionjackson · 06-13-2017, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DawnBTVS

Did the hard work myself and looked at the Reach Guide for 1914-1915... http://library.si.edu/digital-librar...alame19141phil

Swacina is only listed under Batting and 1st Base Fielding.

Baltimore Pitchers listed under the Pitching stats: Quinn (339.1 IP), Suggs (318.1 IP), Conley (125.1 IP), Bailey (129.1 IP), F. Smith (182 IP), and Wilhelm (238 IP).

Sorry, Spritze, love your work but at least for 1914 and Swacina's pitching I'm not seeing it. I also tried the Spalding Guide for 1915 but couldn't find the Federal League listed there.

1909 with both the Tri-State League and the Illinois-Indiana-Iowa League is the same. There is no evidence in the 1910 Reach American Base Ball Guide that Harry Swacina threw a ball in anger from the mound. He has hitting stats and first base fielding stats in there, but no pitching stats. Unless those are to be found in the Spalding Guide, I'm not sure I buy Swacina's 1909 OOTP pitching stats. As others have said Spritze, I love your work, in fact I would go so far as to say that outside of Markus and Andreas, nobody has put more work into this fine game than you. That doesn't mean that Swacina's pitching stats in 1909, or any other year, are above questioning.

Spritze · 06-13-2017, 02:11 PM

As mentioned (and ignored) previously. Fixed.

I was able to track where this came from and fixed 39 additional challenges.

But carry on.

DawnBTVS · 06-13-2017, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

As mentioned (and ignored) previously. Fixed.

I was able to track where this came from and fixed 39 additional challenges.

But carry on.

I saw you had fixed it and appreciated it but just wanted to be thorough for my own sake and to give you the benefit of the doubt

Glad to see the other fixes as well.

swampdragon · 06-13-2017, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DawnBTVS

I saw you had fixed it and appreciated it but just wanted to be thorough for my own sake and to give you the benefit of the doubt

Glad to see the other fixes as well.

It looks like the Spalding guides from those years only listed minor league leaders and almost no pitching stats. The Reach Guide is a better product. Those things are amazing.

David Watts · 06-23-2017, 08:28 PM

Looks like Swacina was fixed. Thanks.

David Watts · 06-24-2017, 08:38 AM

Duke Kenworthy fixed as well. Thanks

italyprof · 06-27-2017, 07:09 AM

"We need the ability to create leagues, edit league structure, relocate teams etc and most importantly erase all history."

David Watt, maybe I misunderstand the issue, but I do all of these things when I play historical leagues. It is true that we can't organize leagues of only minor league and Negro league players which would be great, nor import only teams instead of whole leagues. But I am not sure why you can't use edit league structure to do most of what you are referring to here.

italyprof · 06-27-2017, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

Expand your horizons. There are even paper things published as far back as the 1880's in my library. Known as books in their time. Some even have pictures! They cannot really be viewed very well under water though. Someday robot butlers might read you some of them.

Have you seen this? I think you will appreciate it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQHX-SjgQvQ

06-11-2017, 08:47 PM	#21
swampdragon Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 2,509	This is the Tri-State League. I have no idea of what's available for 1909 other than BB-Ref and possibly but not necessarily TSN. I'm not trying to be critical. I'm genuinely interested in sources and methods here, simply because I'm a bit of a baseball stat nerd, and these just don't seem right. Maybe you've discovered a new book for me to buy. __________________ “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies." -- C.S. Lewis Last edited by swampdragon; 06-11-2017 at 08:48 PM.

06-11-2017, 09:32 PM	#22
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,254	Reach and Spalding guides published in whatever year you are interested in are a good source as they were current at the time. Sheesh. This ain't rocket engineering. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it! Last edited by Spritze; 06-11-2017 at 09:41 PM.

06-11-2017, 11:02 PM	#23
swampdragon Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 2,509	None of that tells me which years Swacina pitched in and which source you used. The question isn't rocket science, either. __________________ “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies." -- C.S. Lewis

06-12-2017, 12:17 AM	#24
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,254	Well we just keep going in circles. I keep saying Spalding and Reach and you keep ignoring the answer. The years are in OOTP under real stats. I'll simply bow out now. No point in continuing. I will double check when time allows. Unless I don't. I really need a break from this. Too many people have all the information they need but are too lazy to look it up. Movin' on. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

06-12-2017, 01:09 PM	#25
swampdragon Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 2,509	Just for kicks, I started a 1919 game with historical minors.I checked Harry Swacina, who was the Shreveport Gasser starter at 1B, and I looked at the real life pitching stats in OOTP. This is easily verifiable by anyone else who wants to do the same thing.. Among other absurdities: 1. Swacina is listed as having pitched over 200 innings for the 1914 Baltimore Terrapins, a Federal League team, and striking out over 300 batters. I and everyone else have reliable Federal League stats. Swacina never pitched an inning for the Terrapins. 2. According to OOTP, Swacina then came back and had a 7-7 record for the Terrapins in 1915, striking out over 12 batters per 9 innings. Once again, the real Swacina never pitched an inning for the team. 3. He is listed with the identical 7-7 record for the 1919 Shreveport Gassers despite not having a record of having pitched for them in any other source. 4. Every listed season has Swacina with exactly a .500 W-L record and striking out over 12 batters per nine innings. No one in the deadball era had that strikeout rate. I suppose it could happen with a small sample size, but I can confidently say that these stats are wrong. Every season at exactly .500 doesn't pass a reality check. My only conclusion has to be that these "Real Life" stats were invented or erroneously compiled rather than pulled from Spalding or Reach. __________________ “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies." -- C.S. Lewis

06-12-2017, 01:25 PM	#26
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,254	Fixed __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

06-12-2017, 08:16 PM	#27
DawnBTVS Major Leagues Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 416	Did the hard work myself and looked at the Reach Guide for 1914-1915... http://library.si.edu/digital-librar...alame19141phil Swacina is only listed under Batting and 1st Base Fielding. Baltimore Pitchers listed under the Pitching stats: Quinn (339.1 IP), Suggs (318.1 IP), Conley (125.1 IP), Bailey (129.1 IP), F. Smith (182 IP), and Wilhelm (238 IP). Sorry, Spritze, love your work but at least for 1914 and Swacina's pitching I'm not seeing it. I also tried the Spalding Guide for 1915 but couldn't find the Federal League listed there. Last edited by DawnBTVS; 06-12-2017 at 08:18 PM.

06-13-2017, 02:11 PM	#31
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,254	As mentioned (and ignored) previously. Fixed. I was able to track where this came from and fixed 39 additional challenges. But carry on. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

06-23-2017, 08:28 PM	#34
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 8,863	Looks like Swacina was fixed. Thanks.

06-24-2017, 08:38 AM	#35
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 8,863	Duke Kenworthy fixed as well. Thanks

06-27-2017, 07:09 AM	#36
italyprof All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 983	"We need the ability to create leagues, edit league structure, relocate teams etc and most importantly erase all history." David Watt, maybe I misunderstand the issue, but I do all of these things when I play historical leagues. It is true that we can't organize leagues of only minor league and Negro league players which would be great, nor import only teams instead of whole leagues. But I am not sure why you can't use edit league structure to do most of what you are referring to here.