Do you mind or don't you?

[Padreman]

Ok I don't mind curtain amount or type of "cheating" in Baseball and some i do. For example too me cork bats, spitballs, sign stealing, taking a fielder while sliding those are ligitimate types of "cheating". Those have always been part of baseball. I don't mind that. However I draw the line of drugs, things like steroids or human growth hormones is not part of the game.
Are you like me? Or you think all of this is cheating? Or you mind anything?
Your thoughts.

[Murcer]

Slightly off topic but in the same vein... I've never understood why players are allowed to run into the catcher!

Players can't run down the first baseman while he's stretching for the ball, why can they barrel down the catcher?

[Padreman]

Originally Posted by Murcer

Slightly off topic but in the same vein... I've never understood why players are allowed to run into the catcher!

Players can't run down the first baseman while he's stretching for the ball, why can they barrel down the catcher?

Well I never thought about that, I guess I just always took it as part of the game. I guess there has too be some rule that says its ok for runners to do be because the catcher is "protected" with his gear.

[Questdog]

Because he's blocking the plate....if the first baseman stood in the baseline, like a catcher does, to catch the throw, he'd get barreled into.....catchers need to quit blocking the plate...it's illegal anyway, if they haven't got the ball yet....but umps don't enforce it......and even if they've got the ball, they are stupid to stand there like a blocking dummy...get to the side and use your glove and off-hand to apply a tag.....everyone makes the mistake of blaming the runner.....it wasn't Pete Rose's fault that Fosse was an idiot.....

[Padreman]

Originally Posted by Questdog

Because he's blocking the plate....if the first baseman stood in the baseline, like a catcher does, to catch the throw, he'd get barreled into.....catchers need to quit blocking the plate...it's illegal anyway, if they haven't got the ball yet....but umps don't enforce it......and even if they've got the ball, they are stupid to stand there like a blocking dummy...get to the side and use your glove and off-hand to apply a tag.....everyone makes the mistake of blaming the runner.....it wasn't Pete Rose's fault that Fosse was an idiot.....

I did not know it was illegal, I guess every time they donut it's a form of cheating, which again I don't mind. I will feel bad if they get hurt but it's part of the game

[JMDurron]

Originally Posted by Padreman

Ok I don't mind curtain amount or type of "cheating" in Baseball and some i do. For example too me cork bats, spitballs, sign stealing, taking a fielder while sliding those are ligitimate types of "cheating". Those have always been part of baseball. I don't mind that. However I draw the line of drugs, things like steroids or human growth hormones is not part of the game.
Are you like me? Or you think all of this is cheating? Or you mind anything?
Your thoughts.

Personally, I think there are three categories. There is "cheating", Cheating, and doing things that are actually illegal. Stealing signs, getting some extra grip on the baseball, and running out of the baseline are "cheating", which are things I don't care about. Cheating would involve things like corking the bat (assume that there is someday a replacement for cork that is commonly available and actually aids the hitter), not touching a base on the way home and getting away with it, or somehow running straight from 2nd to home without anybody noticing, and those things would bother me.

The only thing that really makes drugs special is that they are illegal. You cannot have HGH or steroids or amphetamines without a valid prescription, which is more a problem of violating the laws of the United States (not sure about Canada, but 1/30 is hardly relevant here) while just happening to do so while playing baseball. These things are illegal due to significant potential health risks, and the use of these things create some downward pressure on college/high school athletes to do the same. Make HGH safe, legal, and widely available (all 3 are a requirement here!), and I wouldn't care about baseball players using it. There's nothing inherently offensive to me about the use of drugs themselves, but breaking the law and serving as an example for how/why others should do the same is a different matter.

[Padreman]

Not that they are only illegal but it does enhance the performance of the player a 20 home run hitter with that also hit 20 balls to the warning tract those 20 warning tract shots are now home runs and his 20 per season are now 40. So yes illegal and big time cheating

[JMDurron]

Originally Posted by Padreman

Not that they are only illegal but it does enhance the performance of the player a 20 home run hitter with that also hit 20 balls to the warning tract those 20 warning tract shots are now home runs and his 20 per season are now 40. So yes illegal and big time cheating

Far too many scrub players have been caught with steroids/HGH over the years to make that kind of firm assertion about the impact of PEDs. We know of a few Superstar players who used them and then became SuperMegastar players (Bonds, Clemens), and some star players who used but we have no baseline for without them due to not knowing when they started (Canseco, Sosa, Pettitte, Sheffield, Tejada, Giambi) but that doesn't mean every replacement level player who used them became a 20-HR hitter. Manny Alexander and Alex Sanchez come to mind (off the top of my head, hopefully those names are right).

[rpriske]

Anyone who gets caught using steroids etc NOW, is a lot worse than corking, spitters etc.

Anyone who is accused/caught of usign steroids from back when they were tacitly approved should not be looked down on at all.

That is like judging a pitcher for throwing a spitter back when they were still legal.

And YES that includes Clemens, Bonds, A-Rod...

[yougo1000]

Originally Posted by rpriske

Anyone who gets caught using steroids etc NOW, is a lot worse than corking, spitters etc.

Anyone who is accused/caught of usign steroids from back when they were tacitly approved should not be looked down on at all.

That is like judging a pitcher for throwing a spitter back when they were still legal.

And YES that includes Clemens, Bonds, A-Rod...

I completely agree with you on the steroids issue before they were semi legal. Its not like the MLB said they couldn't use them back then. They were using what was available to them. I feel Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, and McGwire should be in the hall of fame because they used what was allowed to them back then.

[Gil Thorp]

Originally Posted by yougo1000

I feel Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, and McGwire should be in the hall of fame

No, no, no, and no.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by rpriske

Anyone who gets caught using steroids etc NOW, is a lot worse than corking, spitters etc.

Anyone who is accused/caught of usign steroids from back when they were tacitly approved should not be looked down on at all.

That is like judging a pitcher for throwing a spitter back when they were still legal.

And YES that includes Clemens, Bonds, A-Rod...

Throwing a spitter is not against the law. Using (as well as selling and possessing) steroids is against the law. BIG difference. It's a pretty safe assumption that if something is against the law, MLB should not allow it and it should be looked down upon. (Although we all know how MLB and teams are handling guys involved in DUI accidents recently.)

Some of the things they were using, like McGwire and androstenedione, were not illegal at the time they were being used (andro was banned by the FDA in 2004), so you can argue it was a moral issue until they became illegal.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

Throwing a spitter is not against the law. Using (as well as selling and possessing) steroids is against the law. BIG difference. It's a pretty safe assumption that if something is against the law, MLB should not allow it and it should be looked down upon. (Although we all know how MLB and teams are handling guys involved in DUI accidents recently.)

Some of the things they were using, like McGwire and androstenedione, were not illegal at the time they were being used (andro was banned by the FDA in 2004), so you can argue it was a moral issue until they became illegal.

Yeah, but Bud basically promoted the use of roids until it blew up in his face. Balls were wound so tight they were basically superballs, the strike zone was a joke and breaking Roger's record was marketing 101 for years. Too bad big head had to ruin all the fun for Bud and all the sportswriters that couldn't get enough of McGwire and Sosa.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Yeah, but Bud basically promoted the use of roids until it blew up in his face. Balls were wound so tight they were basically superballs, the strike zone was a joke and breaking Roger's record was marketing 101 for years. Too bad big head had to ruin all the fun for Bud and all the sportswriters that couldn't get enough of McGwire and Sosa.

Not denying that the long ball was promoted to bring fans back after the strike. Just saying that there's a big difference between a guy who threw a spitball or stole signs compared and a guy who broke a law to gain an on-field advantage.

[JMDurron]

Originally Posted by yougo1000

I completely agree with you on the steroids issue before they were semi legal. Its not like the MLB said they couldn't use them back then. They were using what was available to them. I feel Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, and McGwire should be in the hall of fame because they used what was allowed to them back then.

It was illegal nationally, how MLB treated it is largely irrelevant in terms of the right/wrongness of it, IMO.

Now, that said, if you believe Jose Canseco's estimates that 80% of the league was using, then the best of the best of the users would still be HOFers. Whether or not something bothers me, or the "is this right or wrong?" question is completely separate from the "is this player a HOFer?" question. I mean, segregation was clearly, horrifyingly wrong, but I wouldn't argue that Babe Ruth isn't a HOFer.

[Charlie Hough]

Originally Posted by Questdog

Because he's blocking the plate....if the first baseman stood in the baseline, like a catcher does, to catch the throw, he'd get barreled into.....catchers need to quit blocking the plate...it's illegal anyway, if they haven't got the ball yet....but umps don't enforce it......and even if they've got the ball, they are stupid to stand there like a blocking dummy...get to the side and use your glove and off-hand to apply a tag.....everyone makes the mistake of blaming the runner.....it wasn't Pete Rose's fault that Fosse was an idiot.....

If I'm the catcher and I have the ball and can block the plate, you have a lot less opportunity to actually slide through and get a piece of the plate with your hand or foot. You will have to go through me and knock the ball out of my hand and glove, or you'll have to find some way to go around me or find a gap in my stance.

That's the point of the technique, which is taught from Little League all the way up through the ranks. I was a catcher in my amateur baseball years, and I blocked the plate every time there was a throw to the plate and I could get the ball and make the play. The first time I tried it as a kid, I didn't think to use two hands on the play and wasn't fully prepared. So the runner knocked the ball loose and was safe. My coach explained the mistake, and, later in the game, the same runner came barreling in, and this time I was ready and he nearly knocked himself out while being leveled and tagged for the final out of the inning. No one ever beat me again on a good throw and a play at the plate when I was blocking. And I was arguably the smallest player in the leagues every year, so everyone outweighed and outsized me.

Ray Fosse's only mistake was in not anticipating Pete Rose making a dirty play and trying to use a deliberate forearm shot to break up the tag. Fosse should have used one of my techniques, which is to keep the left elbow high so the runner can take it right in the throat or the face if he tries any of that garbage. Rose would have left the field in an ambulance if I had anything to do with it, one way or the other. Then again, I'm crazier and dirtier than anything Rose ever did.

[Padreman]

Briefly my 2 cents. Clemens, Bonds, A-Rod do not an should not ever bee in the HOF

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

If I'm the catcher and I have the ball and can block the plate, you have a lot less opportunity to actually slide through and get a piece of the plate with your hand or foot. You will have to go through me and knock the ball out of my hand and glove, or you'll have to find some way to go around me or find a gap in my stance.

That's the point of the technique, which is taught from Little League all the way up through the ranks. I was a catcher in my amateur baseball years, and I blocked the plate every time there was a throw to the plate and I could get the ball and make the play. The first time I tried it as a kid, I didn't think to use two hands on the play and wasn't fully prepared. So the runner knocked the ball loose and was safe. My coach explained the mistake, and, later in the game, the same runner came barreling in, and this time I was ready and he nearly knocked himself out while being leveled and tagged for the final out of the inning. No one ever beat me again on a good throw and a play at the plate when I was blocking. And I was arguably the smallest player in the leagues every year, so everyone outweighed and outsized me.

Ray Fosse's only mistake was in not anticipating Pete Rose making a dirty play and trying to use a deliberate forearm shot to break up the tag. Fosse should have used one of my techniques, which is to keep the left elbow high so the runner can take it right in the throat or the face if he tries any of that garbage. Rose would have left the field in an ambulance if I had anything to do with it, one way or the other. Then again, I'm crazier and dirtier than anything Rose ever did.

Rose didn't do anything dirty.....if the guy is making it so the only way to the plate is through him, then you are stupid not to try to dish out more force than you have to accept.....

I don't have a moral problem with catchers blocking the plate.....I just think it is really stupid on their part to take all that abuse.....teams are just now starting to rethink this strategy as they wonder if blocking a run is worth risking their multi-million dollar investment......some teams are now making their catchers set up in front of the plate to accept the throw and do a sweep tag........catchers should have been smarter and wondered whether this strategy was worth risking their careers for and done this on their own.....

I think they ought to allow a catcher a second glove to switch to after a ball is put in play, since a mitt is awfully awkward on every play except catching a pitch.....

[Padreman]

Originally Posted by Questdog

I think they ought to allow a catcher a second glove to switch to after a ball is put in play, since a mitt is awfully awkward on every play except catching a pitch.....

That's an interesting thought, i like that. I played catcher in highschool, the mitt is
Awful on any other fielding play.

[polydamas]

Personally, I think HGH (which in the right hands has few negative effects) should be allowed to players recovering from serious injury (like RG3 in the NFL).