It's the Last Friday In March!!! - Page 5

PBRmeASAP · 03-26-2004, 06:46 PM

I don't know who jdbolick is but i think he needs to get his panties out of what ever bundle they are in and shut up.

How can you complain about a release date that isn't even here yet?

Thats like complaining at 5:30pm that a 7pm game hasn't started yet?????

Keep up the good work markus, henry and the rest. I have faith the the company will put out a quality product when it is ready and playable.

rogmax11 · 03-26-2004, 06:49 PM

Whew! Somebody is a tad cranky, doncha think? FWIW, I am far more concerned with quality control, working features, and minimal post-release patching than I am with beating MLB to the starting gate. As the previous poster stated, the game is not intrinsically driven by up-to-the-second rosters, and thus the release date is, for most OOTP buyers, less a concern that it be in lock-step with opening day than it appears to be for our "reviewer."

This is not to say I ( and most of us here ) am not anticipating an imminent release for OOTP6. It is to say that the characterization of this company as sloppy or unprofessional is unwarranted and inaccurate in light of the overwhelming history of prompt response to buyer concerns demonstrated heretofore.

Patience, Grasshopper.

Dargone · 03-26-2004, 07:07 PM

Guuuhhh...

jdbolick · 03-26-2004, 07:09 PM

Night2000:
I never said I don't understand why it's late, I specifically stated that I understood all that and I understood the rationale behind not wanting to release a buggy game. None of that changes the fact that there are certain reasonable expectations and OOTP6 will not meet at least one of them. You people sound like a broken record. You keep saying things like: "better to have an OOTP6 that is polished and have less bugs, than a rushed buggy version." Yes that is better, but it does absolutely nothing to change the fact that a proper company should have a polished, largely bug-free project completed already. The fact that they don't is not a free pass from criticism about the delay, it's a failure of the development process. No game is released late just because someone thought that would be funny. They're all late because bugs are being worked out or something else is gumming up the works, but they're still late. As for your EA comments, I'm less than fond of the monolith, but your statements are demonstrably false. Everyone who played one knows that the Triple Play series was about as awful as sports games can possibly get. In response to customer dissatisfaction, EA completely overhauled the series and this season produced arguably the best major company baseball game. They've also taken action based on customer feedback in other franchises like Madden. But ultimately you're missing the point, I assume intentionally. It doesn't matter whether you choose EA, .989. Sega, or anyone else. The point is that a major company releasing a sports game weeks or especially months after the start of the season it represents would be savaged, because there are definite industry expectations.

Jack Bauer:
Actually you're quite wrong about what this board is about. "Follow my ideas or screw you" is exactly the modus operandi on this board, evidenced by your own post and those preceding it. Not only that, but your attempted comebacks are horribly cliched. It's useless to be dismissive. At least try addressing my actual points if you're going to be critical. Some other people have, but most have done like you.

gmo:
No one is disputing the idea that it is better to release a stable game than a buggy game. What you need to acknowledge is that OOTP screwed up in not having a stable game by now. I know there are reasons for that, but there are always reasons for things being late. That never happens because someone just wanted a game to be late. There are always explanations, and none of that changes the fact that it's late.

Schmidty:
Since I majored in anthropology, I'm just curious: did you post that because you thought someone would find it clever, or because you just wanted attention regardless? The former would seem to indicate poor judgment, since I can't see anyone, even the sheep, finding that a clever witticism. I really don't mind being insulted as long as it's something clever. At least then I can get a laugh out of it.

PBRmeASAP:
How can you complain about a complaint you obviously didn't even read, or at least didn't comprehend? And I'm sure Henry & co. will appreciate the fact that they no longer have a need to buy toilet paper.

glanville4mvp · 03-26-2004, 07:09 PM

This is my first post but I've been lurking around these boards for months. I created an account just so I could throw my 2 cents into this crazy thread. I don't know if I'm one of the sheep, but if I am then I am blissfully ignorant. So feel free to ignore my comments or just point out exactly what makes my way of thinking incorrect...

First off, if you're still going to give the game a negative review without even playing it, I would love to read your review. I imagine it will be quite short.

Secondly, I understand your frustration but you have to realize that the "industry standards" that you speak so highly of are merely the "business standards" of EA Sports. However, EA Sports is an entirely different entity than OOTP because OOTP is a developer of fictional statistical simulations while EA Sports creates MLB licensed graphical sports games. Still, I completely understand why you think the game should coincide with the MLB season but that is simply your theory of good business practice and it is not a universal law. If this game was licensed by MLB, I truly believe this would be a whole different story and I would be inclined to agree with you.

Third, you made a good point that they should have anticipated the factors that have caused this game to be released later. It's hard to argue that point but, to the company's credit, we were all notified of this. We were never led to believe that this game would be released in conjuction with Spring Training like previous games have been. I understood this fact long before I pre-ordered the game and was not upset by it.

Finally, you are acting as if they are not making an attempt to have the game relased within this next week leading up to the season. They have told us that they plan on releasing the game near Opening Day (which is the start of the MLB baseball season if you haven't heard). They aren't planning on releasing it in the middle of the season or anything so, personally, I don't fully grasp the complaint.

It's sad that you are cancelling your order because you will miss out on playing a very entertaining game. And while I don't know how popular your reviews are, I hope that your negative review doesn't stop other people from enjoying this wonderfully made game as well. Anyway, I guess I'm a sheep and now you can rip my post to shreads if you want.

Crapshoot · 03-26-2004, 07:25 PM

At some point, jdbolik seems to feel that his understanding of the "industry" and so forth grants him expertise to comment on a market he knows little about- he concedes that OOTP has a smaller, more devoted fanbase, but then keeps arguing that this will hurt OOTP "negatively." More so, the premise of his arguement seems to be that despite it being constantly stated that this game will come "Around" Opening Day, that OOTP Developments has some obligation to him to release it when he thinks they should. Fundementally, I think its incredibly presumptios for someone like you with little credibility to speak of, to tell them how their profits will be affected, and to tell them that they a responsibility to release the game at a certain time. It is a company, and it has no obligation to you- stop presuming it does.

Quote:

I realize that OOTP is a small company with limited resources, but they should either devote the time necessary to release their games on time or else stop making sports games. The latter is not something I want, given my appreciation for previous titles, but it's a reality of the business world.

This statement shows me just how little you understand- you're presuming to tell those of us that are okay with how OOTP does things, that the company should stop producing games if it doesnt meet your standards- do you any idea how incredibly arrogant that sounds ? Your rights extend to buying the game, or chosing not to buy it- you have every right to demand a refund if the release date doesn't please you- but you have no right to presume you should dictate decisions on their company and their profitability beyond that. Grow up.

InigoMontoya · 03-26-2004, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdbolick
I will still be writing a negative review of your business practices, but at least then I can mention that you did something minor to address my issues.

I challenge you to a duel!

Jack Bauer · 03-26-2004, 07:32 PM

jd,

Will you PLEASE be our guide? You are so right, everything you say is 100% correct. How could we have EVER questioned you and your wealth of knowledge. I'm sure that right now Markus is ready to sign over ownership of his company and all rights to the games he has produced to you.

Please share more wisdom with us.....we hunger for your unlimited knowledge.

bosunmate · 03-26-2004, 07:37 PM

JD SAY GOODBYE PLEASE

Jack Bauer · 03-26-2004, 07:39 PM

BTW,

"GREAT" comparison of EA and OOTPDEV. Kinda like comparing high school football to the NFL.......some common principles apply but NO one in their "right mind" expects the same ability, results or outcome from a high school football player as they would an NFL player.

gmo · 03-26-2004, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdbolick
The point is that a major company releasing a sports game weeks or especially months after the start of the season it represents would be savaged, because there are definite industry expectations.

Such criticism is fair, more and more so the later a game comes out. I'd recommend sticking to the point the game has not come out yet and may not be out until a couple weeks into the season, because I think that is a much more defensible criticism and citing up to months late is unnecessarily speculative and will lead to considerable rancor in response.

Just as people should be willing to question opposing points of view and not just say someone is wrong because they disagree (which often fails to happen here), I think being able to accept a business that does not follow the "industry expectations" is reasonable. Furthermore, why are those expectations as they are, and what is wrong with not following them if you can still carve out a successful niche?

Quote:

Originally posted by jdbolick
OOTP screwed up in not having a stable game by now.

No, they made a choice. Someone can choose to disagree and rip them a new one for not being done in March, just like someone could choose to play blind and not care if the game did not come until June. I assume OOTP understands some people will feel the choice is a mistake and will be turned off but that they feel they will more than compensate for it in other ways. If someone feels the need to attempt to turn people off from the game because it doesn't come out at the standard time, that is his prerogative. But if the game is of a very high quality, I have a hard time believing a suppose April 15 release date should be used to turn opinion against it.

Schmidty · 03-26-2004, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdbolick
Schmidty:
Since I majored in anthropology, I'm just curious: did you post that because you thought someone would find it clever, or because you just wanted attention regardless? The former would seem to indicate poor judgment, since I can't see anyone, even the sheep, finding that a clever witticism. I really don't mind being insulted as long as it's something clever. At least then I can get a laugh out of it.

Having majored in child psychology, I am not here to make you laugh, nor am I here to be clever; I am here to understand your mis-directed anger and to provide you with some solace if you feel the need to express your emotions in a more productive way.

As I said before, if you feel the need to talk, or even cry, please contact me here.

jdbolick · 03-26-2004, 07:49 PM

glanville4mvp:
Hopefully this is the last time I'll have to explain this particular distinction. In fact, I'll just quote myself:

"I said: "I'm not surprised that there are some reasonable people largely unconcerned by the game's lateness due to their prior satisfaction and faith in a company with a good track record; nor am I'm not surprised by the legions of sheep who faithfully defend their idols." Notice that I indentified two separate groups of people supporting the game. If you are one of those who isn't attacking people like me who are upset about the lateness, then don't count yourself among the sheep, consider yourself one of the former (reasonable people). If you're an unthinking suck-up who blasts all critics because they define themselves by their devotion to some corporate product, then you would be."

As for the "review," I'm not going to comment about the game's merits if I haven't played it. I'll only mention how I enjoyed previous incarnations of OOTP, how this one failed to meet basic standards regarding its release, the very poor customer relations, and the excuses for why it's late. As for your EA argument, why then were all previous incarnations of OOTP released before the start of the MLB season? Even text sims at least attempt to be out by the start of their season, whether they feature fictional or real players. Everyone acknowledges that deadline when they actually meet it, they only deny its existence when they can't.

Regarding notification, it wasn't that clear to me. People who read the forums probably knew that the game wouldn't be released soon, but as mentioned in my second post, I tend to avoid message boards and don't think I should be responsible for reading them in order to find out basic information about a product. In the newsletter Email I received on March 9th, it did say "Out of the Park 6 is rapidly approaching beta testing and should be ready for release around Opening Day!," but I was obviously mistaken in assuming that "around Opening Day" was equivalent to "sometime shortly before Opening Day." I admit that I hadn't considered the possibility that the statement might mean the game wouldn't be released until several weeks into the season. Whether or not that's my fault, it isn't a point that was made clear in the newsletter or anywhere on the non-message board portions of the website. In fact, I found it rather odd that the main OOTP page was still advertising OOTP5. This total lack of disclosure or contrition from the staff is as troubling or moreso than the release date of the game itself. I can't recall another game where the developers seemed so cavalier about the frustration of their customers. The game should be out already, we know that it isn't because the developers put off working on OOTP longer than they usually do to work on another project instead, and those developers seem to resent the fact that customers are troubled by the product's late and as yet uncertain release date. There's no question that previous OOTP games have been good, but that attitude is particularly worrisome. At least when developers are apologetic, you can be more understanding and have some reasonable assurance that it won't happen again barring exceptional circumstances.

Aadik:
If you have a small fan base, those people tend to be more understanding, but you also have a smaller margin for error. If they, by their mistakes, and those of you who insult critics, by your asinine behavior, drive off a fair number of customers, they don't have a lot of room to stay profitable. Regarding your assessment of my opinion, you're certainly free to disagree, but doing so doesn't matter. I'm not making this up. I'm not the one making the rule that sports games are expected to be out by the start of the seasons they represent. I'm telling you what the expectations are. Those aren't my expectations, they're what most customers expect from developers. As I said to glanville, why do you think all previous OOTP games were released before the start of the season? Why is the staff still trying to get the game out by the start of the season? Why are almost all other games out by now? You can insult me all you want and it changes nothing. Some people, like you apparently, won't leave OOTP no matter how late the games are. Other people will, and there is no doubt that late releases negatively affect the attraction of new customers. From my own experience as a writer, I know that the later you put out a sports magazine, the fewer sales you eventually get. People expect those magazines to be out by a certain date, and if you don't have it by then, they'll move on to something else. That even goes for some people who know your magazine is high quality, but especially for those who might have been new customers. You're obviously taking this the wrong way. I'm not offended that OOTP has not catered to my needs, and I'm not demanding that they satisfy me. I'm expressing my regret and disappointment that they failed to get the product out on time, my frustration with their attitude, and my concern that a continuation of this behavior might mean an eventual end to OOTP games altogether. Companies generally don't keep producing games forever unless they become substantially profitable, and this kind of thing won't help.

And please, can you people refrain from such childish admonitions as "Grow up!" Most of you haven't even demonstrated the capacity to understand my argument. The least you could do is behave with some maturity, or barring that, say something amusing. "Grow up!" is useless and tired, especially from someone who couldn't understand that I'm not demanding that OOTP stop making sports games if they don't shape up, I'm concerned that they might not be making them for much longer unless they correct some fundamental mistakes.

Jack Bauer:
Sarcasm is better than 8th grade insults, but it still didn't quite hit the spot. Try again if you must, but do better. And by the way, one of those "common principles" you refer to is actually getting the game out before the start of the season in question. There's a reason OOTP always did it before this season when their dalliance with ITP pushed back their schedule.

gmo:
If you have the resources, a company can survive late or buggy or any other problem in their games for an indefinite period. I doubt that OOTP has that kind of bankroll, so as long as they intend to make some money off of their product, they need to meet the industry standards. Those standards are set less by the companies involved that the customers who support the industry. Sports games should be out a fair amount of time before the start of the season not because that's in the Ten Commandments, but because that's what customers want. Those of you who don't care aren't affected by that, but a company which wants to attain a significant market share must address those issues. OOTP has made some strides through its timely releases and the quality of its products, but a late release and especially the apparently indifferent attitude of its developers will set the series back. If they can continue to succeed anyway, that's great for them, but it goes against the probabilities. I keep pointing out that previous OOTPs were on time, and I doubt anyone would dispute that they'd prefer to have the game out before the start of April, so if that's the case, why is it not a bad thing for that desire to go unmet?

You're provably false about your explanation by the simple fact that Henry has related OOTP's excuses for why the game's release date has been pushed back. OOTP did something that caused the release date to be pushed back. OOTP developments does not want OOTP6 to be released several weeks or even a month after the optimal date, but that's the result of them delaying the start of work on OOTP6 due to their occupation with ITP. OOTP did something that pushed back the release date, and they'd rather have the game out by now. That means they screwed up, they'd just prefer to pretend that they didn't than to express contrition to potential customers who are dissatisfied with the delay.

Schmidty:
Ah, so you did hope you were being clever. Ouch, sorry about that.

mh2365 · 03-26-2004, 07:57 PM

Jd, please go over to the front office football board and see how they feel about your beloved EA .... As good as Madden and NCAA are, that company can screw up a wet dream .....

If yours truly isn't an alias then I apologize, of course there is no way to prove it .... But if it isn't then you are even a bigger dickweed than I thought you before .... You obviously think you can come on a FAN site and call us all dumbass for being FANS of the game the site is dedicated too.

After six versions and years of flawless customer service by Markus we should follow your advice and turn on him .... Madden is almost always released on August 15th, I follow you logic that if it came out in Feb. it would be late .... OOTP on the other hand isn't always out at the same month or date .... It is usually out by opening day ....

Another example of you dickweedness (new word, because I don't applaud my own accomplishments I thought I'd just make up words and then celebrate) is that opening day isn't even here officially for a week, although it does start in Japan on Monday .... I doubt this game will be out by then yet I will not be critical .... Why? because I dare you to find a single text game excluding CM but including FOF that hits the market as smooth as any version of OOTP or has as many free enhancements as it does..... The customer service is excellent and he actually participates and listens to his customers, he opens up the code so people can add mods whenever they please .....

so please go write your little article and pat yourself on the back, but when the day is over you'll sit down and play this game and love it and you'll be a dickweed hypocrite

To all the regulars I know "fanboy" but imagine that on a board dedicated to the game .... One last thing jd, no one gets ripped on this board for constructive criticism so that fact that you are getting ripped should be you first clue that you are barking up the wrong tree

I

Jack Bauer · 03-26-2004, 07:58 PM

Hey big JD,

Bottom line, games not out yet - you're pissed off. Deal with it.

I still say your EA comparison is extremely flawed, but of course you know it all.

Don't bother rambling on and on and on back to me. I'm full as it sounds you are too. (haha, more 8th grade humor for ya).

clarnzz · 03-26-2004, 07:58 PM

Wabbit season. Duck season. Wabbit season. Wabbit season. Duck season. FIRE!

Maria Nieves · 03-26-2004, 08:06 PM

OOTP has never claimed to be in the same class as EA. Why apply the same standards of a major corporation to a much smaller business. OOTP has a limited staff of programmers - Markus and...?

The marketing is still in its infancy. It's still a word of mouth game. Maybe one day, when OOTP goes big, your criticism would hold more water. But right now, OOTP, arguably the best fictional baseball simulation, should not have a "before Opening Day" deadline.

As far as your article is concerned, if you are actually a legitmate and professional writer, it would be fair to notfy your readers that OOTP is pretty much coded and designed by one programmer, as opposed to a team of programmers, a la EA.

This deadline you're referring to seems to be a pet peeve of yours and your peers. But the people on these boards? They are just getting a bit antsy right now. They are itching for version 6 (read: NOT OOTP 2004). They are not revolting. There's some complaining, but that's normal with the anticipation of any game. The complainers will get over it soon enough.

OOTP has a loyal following. It's like a grass roots campaign. The game is unbelievable. It really takes a Herculean effort to create such a masterpiece. Most of OOTP's customers know this and that's what makes this game so addictive. Why not cut a small business some slack?

I do see your point if OOTP was Sega or some software powerhouse, selling a 2004 version. But this is OOTP, which is in a different market. It is a PC baseball text simulation.

The fan base has direct contact with Markus on these boards, and he does everything he can to better the game through their input.

I agree with you that the "official responses" have not been specific with up-to-date technical specs and are not as friendly as some would like, but they have been 110% honest about the game's release date and its features.

Again, OOTP does not have a team of customer service representatives or a corporate headquarters with a boardroom full of marketing gurus or investors. So why compare the standards you put on EA to OOTP?

Make no mistake about it- OOTP is not "late" in this reality. But if you keep town-crying this criticism, you actually are responsible for the "negative backlash" you proclaim will occur because of not being released before Opening Day.

At the All-Star break, OOTP's fanbase will not even worry or even care to remember when the game was released!

MidnightPyro · 03-26-2004, 08:11 PM

I think we're all just anxious for the game to come out. Everyone wants the game to come out, and everyone is looking forward to the game. People are attempting to flame OOTP for the game not coming out. I highly doubt this will help anything happen...but maybe something like an open beta test from OOTP's side? An early release of the game, with the understanding that it'll have bugs, but it'll allow those of us that want to play it quick and have the bugs our chance, while the people that want to hold off until the "official" bug-free release their chance to wait.
Why would something like this not work?

LeeHoFooks · 03-26-2004, 08:12 PM

Six pages of debate, and Glanville makes the most sense of all in his very first post. For some reason I find myself wanting to wretch everytime OOTP is compared to sports games that are produced mainly for game consoles. I even feel woozy when someone suggests that graphics be added to the game. Oh well.

PS The earlier talk of how in older times you would have to read about the game in a Magizine and then wait, was classic. It brought back the memory of my early Strat-O-Matic days. Anyone else remember ordering the current season's player cards and then waiting and waiting and waiting for them to arrive? I think our UPS driver was actually afraid of me. The worst thing was when he came down our road and went right on past my house. Oh wait that wasn't worst. The worst was when he missed a stop and came back my direction, just to pass my house again.

Jack Bauer · 03-26-2004, 08:12 PM

Oh the MVP Baseball you say is such a great game.............for true realism it's "fair" and could have EASILY used another month(that's 30 days-more 8th grade humor) in development as there are some GLARING issues, but I doubt you noticed since it met your most important goal of being out early(before the season).

I'm not just talking minor issues, close to unplayable things.....BUT many "customers" have found ways around or altered files to make it "fair" rather than a mess.

Doubt you'd notice though.

03-26-2004, 07:07 PM	#83
Dargone Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Interwebs Posts: 2,862	Guuuhhh... __________________ I was never one to patiently pick up broken fragments and glue them together again and tell myself that the mended whole was as good as new. What is broken is broken -- and I'd rather remember it as it was at its best than mend it and see the broken places as long as I lived.-Margaret Mitchell

03-26-2004, 07:09 PM	#84
jdbolick Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 20	Re: Night2000: I never said I don't understand why it's late, I specifically stated that I understood all that and I understood the rationale behind not wanting to release a buggy game. None of that changes the fact that there are certain reasonable expectations and OOTP6 will not meet at least one of them. You people sound like a broken record. You keep saying things like: "better to have an OOTP6 that is polished and have less bugs, than a rushed buggy version." Yes that is better, but it does absolutely nothing to change the fact that a proper company should have a polished, largely bug-free project completed already. The fact that they don't is not a free pass from criticism about the delay, it's a failure of the development process. No game is released late just because someone thought that would be funny. They're all late because bugs are being worked out or something else is gumming up the works, but they're still late. As for your EA comments, I'm less than fond of the monolith, but your statements are demonstrably false. Everyone who played one knows that the Triple Play series was about as awful as sports games can possibly get. In response to customer dissatisfaction, EA completely overhauled the series and this season produced arguably the best major company baseball game. They've also taken action based on customer feedback in other franchises like Madden. But ultimately you're missing the point, I assume intentionally. It doesn't matter whether you choose EA, .989. Sega, or anyone else. The point is that a major company releasing a sports game weeks or especially months after the start of the season it represents would be savaged, because there are definite industry expectations. Jack Bauer: Actually you're quite wrong about what this board is about. "Follow my ideas or screw you" is exactly the modus operandi on this board, evidenced by your own post and those preceding it. Not only that, but your attempted comebacks are horribly cliched. It's useless to be dismissive. At least try addressing my actual points if you're going to be critical. Some other people have, but most have done like you. gmo: No one is disputing the idea that it is better to release a stable game than a buggy game. What you need to acknowledge is that OOTP screwed up in not having a stable game by now. I know there are reasons for that, but there are always reasons for things being late. That never happens because someone just wanted a game to be late. There are always explanations, and none of that changes the fact that it's late. Schmidty: Since I majored in anthropology, I'm just curious: did you post that because you thought someone would find it clever, or because you just wanted attention regardless? The former would seem to indicate poor judgment, since I can't see anyone, even the sheep, finding that a clever witticism. I really don't mind being insulted as long as it's something clever. At least then I can get a laugh out of it. PBRmeASAP: How can you complain about a complaint you obviously didn't even read, or at least didn't comprehend? And I'm sure Henry & co. will appreciate the fact that they no longer have a need to buy toilet paper. Last edited by jdbolick; 03-26-2004 at 07:13 PM.

03-26-2004, 07:09 PM	#85
glanville4mvp Bat Boy Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 12	This is my first post but I've been lurking around these boards for months. I created an account just so I could throw my 2 cents into this crazy thread. I don't know if I'm one of the sheep, but if I am then I am blissfully ignorant. So feel free to ignore my comments or just point out exactly what makes my way of thinking incorrect... First off, if you're still going to give the game a negative review without even playing it, I would love to read your review. I imagine it will be quite short. Secondly, I understand your frustration but you have to realize that the "industry standards" that you speak so highly of are merely the "business standards" of EA Sports. However, EA Sports is an entirely different entity than OOTP because OOTP is a developer of fictional statistical simulations while EA Sports creates MLB licensed graphical sports games. Still, I completely understand why you think the game should coincide with the MLB season but that is simply your theory of good business practice and it is not a universal law. If this game was licensed by MLB, I truly believe this would be a whole different story and I would be inclined to agree with you. Third, you made a good point that they should have anticipated the factors that have caused this game to be released later. It's hard to argue that point but, to the company's credit, we were all notified of this. We were never led to believe that this game would be released in conjuction with Spring Training like previous games have been. I understood this fact long before I pre-ordered the game and was not upset by it. Finally, you are acting as if they are not making an attempt to have the game relased within this next week leading up to the season. They have told us that they plan on releasing the game near Opening Day (which is the start of the MLB baseball season if you haven't heard). They aren't planning on releasing it in the middle of the season or anything so, personally, I don't fully grasp the complaint. It's sad that you are cancelling your order because you will miss out on playing a very entertaining game. And while I don't know how popular your reviews are, I hope that your negative review doesn't stop other people from enjoying this wonderfully made game as well. Anyway, I guess I'm a sheep and now you can rip my post to shreads if you want. __________________ Constantly talking isn't necessarily communication

03-26-2004, 07:49 PM	#93
jdbolick Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 20	Re: glanville4mvp: Hopefully this is the last time I'll have to explain this particular distinction. In fact, I'll just quote myself: "I said: "I'm not surprised that there are some reasonable people largely unconcerned by the game's lateness due to their prior satisfaction and faith in a company with a good track record; nor am I'm not surprised by the legions of sheep who faithfully defend their idols." Notice that I indentified two separate groups of people supporting the game. If you are one of those who isn't attacking people like me who are upset about the lateness, then don't count yourself among the sheep, consider yourself one of the former (reasonable people). If you're an unthinking suck-up who blasts all critics because they define themselves by their devotion to some corporate product, then you would be." As for the "review," I'm not going to comment about the game's merits if I haven't played it. I'll only mention how I enjoyed previous incarnations of OOTP, how this one failed to meet basic standards regarding its release, the very poor customer relations, and the excuses for why it's late. As for your EA argument, why then were all previous incarnations of OOTP released before the start of the MLB season? Even text sims at least attempt to be out by the start of their season, whether they feature fictional or real players. Everyone acknowledges that deadline when they actually meet it, they only deny its existence when they can't. Regarding notification, it wasn't that clear to me. People who read the forums probably knew that the game wouldn't be released soon, but as mentioned in my second post, I tend to avoid message boards and don't think I should be responsible for reading them in order to find out basic information about a product. In the newsletter Email I received on March 9th, it did say "Out of the Park 6 is rapidly approaching beta testing and should be ready for release around Opening Day!," but I was obviously mistaken in assuming that "around Opening Day" was equivalent to "sometime shortly before Opening Day." I admit that I hadn't considered the possibility that the statement might mean the game wouldn't be released until several weeks into the season. Whether or not that's my fault, it isn't a point that was made clear in the newsletter or anywhere on the non-message board portions of the website. In fact, I found it rather odd that the main OOTP page was still advertising OOTP5. This total lack of disclosure or contrition from the staff is as troubling or moreso than the release date of the game itself. I can't recall another game where the developers seemed so cavalier about the frustration of their customers. The game should be out already, we know that it isn't because the developers put off working on OOTP longer than they usually do to work on another project instead, and those developers seem to resent the fact that customers are troubled by the product's late and as yet uncertain release date. There's no question that previous OOTP games have been good, but that attitude is particularly worrisome. At least when developers are apologetic, you can be more understanding and have some reasonable assurance that it won't happen again barring exceptional circumstances. Aadik: If you have a small fan base, those people tend to be more understanding, but you also have a smaller margin for error. If they, by their mistakes, and those of you who insult critics, by your asinine behavior, drive off a fair number of customers, they don't have a lot of room to stay profitable. Regarding your assessment of my opinion, you're certainly free to disagree, but doing so doesn't matter. I'm not making this up. I'm not the one making the rule that sports games are expected to be out by the start of the seasons they represent. I'm telling you what the expectations are. Those aren't my expectations, they're what most customers expect from developers. As I said to glanville, why do you think all previous OOTP games were released before the start of the season? Why is the staff still trying to get the game out by the start of the season? Why are almost all other games out by now? You can insult me all you want and it changes nothing. Some people, like you apparently, won't leave OOTP no matter how late the games are. Other people will, and there is no doubt that late releases negatively affect the attraction of new customers. From my own experience as a writer, I know that the later you put out a sports magazine, the fewer sales you eventually get. People expect those magazines to be out by a certain date, and if you don't have it by then, they'll move on to something else. That even goes for some people who know your magazine is high quality, but especially for those who might have been new customers. You're obviously taking this the wrong way. I'm not offended that OOTP has not catered to my needs, and I'm not demanding that they satisfy me. I'm expressing my regret and disappointment that they failed to get the product out on time, my frustration with their attitude, and my concern that a continuation of this behavior might mean an eventual end to OOTP games altogether. Companies generally don't keep producing games forever unless they become substantially profitable, and this kind of thing won't help. And please, can you people refrain from such childish admonitions as "Grow up!" Most of you haven't even demonstrated the capacity to understand my argument. The least you could do is behave with some maturity, or barring that, say something amusing. "Grow up!" is useless and tired, especially from someone who couldn't understand that I'm not demanding that OOTP stop making sports games if they don't shape up, I'm concerned that they might not be making them for much longer unless they correct some fundamental mistakes. Jack Bauer: Sarcasm is better than 8th grade insults, but it still didn't quite hit the spot. Try again if you must, but do better. And by the way, one of those "common principles" you refer to is actually getting the game out before the start of the season in question. There's a reason OOTP always did it before this season when their dalliance with ITP pushed back their schedule. gmo: If you have the resources, a company can survive late or buggy or any other problem in their games for an indefinite period. I doubt that OOTP has that kind of bankroll, so as long as they intend to make some money off of their product, they need to meet the industry standards. Those standards are set less by the companies involved that the customers who support the industry. Sports games should be out a fair amount of time before the start of the season not because that's in the Ten Commandments, but because that's what customers want. Those of you who don't care aren't affected by that, but a company which wants to attain a significant market share must address those issues. OOTP has made some strides through its timely releases and the quality of its products, but a late release and especially the apparently indifferent attitude of its developers will set the series back. If they can continue to succeed anyway, that's great for them, but it goes against the probabilities. I keep pointing out that previous OOTPs were on time, and I doubt anyone would dispute that they'd prefer to have the game out before the start of April, so if that's the case, why is it not a bad thing for that desire to go unmet? You're provably false about your explanation by the simple fact that Henry has related OOTP's excuses for why the game's release date has been pushed back. OOTP did something that caused the release date to be pushed back. OOTP developments does not want OOTP6 to be released several weeks or even a month after the optimal date, but that's the result of them delaying the start of work on OOTP6 due to their occupation with ITP. OOTP did something that pushed back the release date, and they'd rather have the game out by now. That means they screwed up, they'd just prefer to pretend that they didn't than to express contrition to potential customers who are dissatisfied with the delay. Schmidty: Ah, so you did hope you were being clever. Ouch, sorry about that. Last edited by jdbolick; 03-26-2004 at 07:59 PM.

03-26-2004, 06:46 PM	#81
PBRmeASAP Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 63	I don't know who jdbolick is but i think he needs to get his panties out of what ever bundle they are in and shut up. How can you complain about a release date that isn't even here yet? Thats like complaining at 5:30pm that a 7pm game hasn't started yet????? Keep up the good work markus, henry and the rest. I have faith the the company will put out a quality product when it is ready and playable.

03-26-2004, 06:49 PM	#82
rogmax11 All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,320	Whew! Somebody is a tad cranky, doncha think? FWIW, I am far more concerned with quality control, working features, and minimal post-release patching than I am with beating MLB to the starting gate. As the previous poster stated, the game is not intrinsically driven by up-to-the-second rosters, and thus the release date is, for most OOTP buyers, less a concern that it be in lock-step with opening day than it appears to be for our "reviewer." This is not to say I ( and most of us here ) am not anticipating an imminent release for OOTP6. It is to say that the characterization of this company as sloppy or unprofessional is unwarranted and inaccurate in light of the overwhelming history of prompt response to buyer concerns demonstrated heretofore. Patience, Grasshopper.

03-26-2004, 07:32 PM	#88
Jack Bauer 24 Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 29	jd, Will you PLEASE be our guide? You are so right, everything you say is 100% correct. How could we have EVER questioned you and your wealth of knowledge. I'm sure that right now Markus is ready to sign over ownership of his company and all rights to the games he has produced to you. Please share more wisdom with us.....we hunger for your unlimited knowledge.

03-26-2004, 07:37 PM	#89
bosunmate All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 1,621	JD SAY GOODBYE PLEASE

03-26-2004, 07:39 PM	#90
Jack Bauer 24 Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 29	BTW, "GREAT" comparison of EA and OOTPDEV. Kinda like comparing high school football to the NFL.......some common principles apply but NO one in their "right mind" expects the same ability, results or outcome from a high school football player as they would an NFL player.

03-26-2004, 07:57 PM	#94
mh2365 Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: louisville Posts: 14,941 Infractions: 0/2 (101)	Jd, please go over to the front office football board and see how they feel about your beloved EA .... As good as Madden and NCAA are, that company can screw up a wet dream ..... If yours truly isn't an alias then I apologize, of course there is no way to prove it .... But if it isn't then you are even a bigger dickweed than I thought you before .... You obviously think you can come on a FAN site and call us all dumbass for being FANS of the game the site is dedicated too. After six versions and years of flawless customer service by Markus we should follow your advice and turn on him .... Madden is almost always released on August 15th, I follow you logic that if it came out in Feb. it would be late .... OOTP on the other hand isn't always out at the same month or date .... It is usually out by opening day .... Another example of you dickweedness (new word, because I don't applaud my own accomplishments I thought I'd just make up words and then celebrate) is that opening day isn't even here officially for a week, although it does start in Japan on Monday .... I doubt this game will be out by then yet I will not be critical .... Why? because I dare you to find a single text game excluding CM but including FOF that hits the market as smooth as any version of OOTP or has as many free enhancements as it does..... The customer service is excellent and he actually participates and listens to his customers, he opens up the code so people can add mods whenever they please ..... so please go write your little article and pat yourself on the back, but when the day is over you'll sit down and play this game and love it and you'll be a dickweed hypocrite To all the regulars I know "fanboy" but imagine that on a board dedicated to the game .... One last thing jd, no one gets ripped on this board for constructive criticism so that fact that you are getting ripped should be you first clue that you are barking up the wrong tree I

03-26-2004, 07:58 PM	#95
Jack Bauer 24 Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 29	Hey big JD, Bottom line, games not out yet - you're pissed off. Deal with it. I still say your EA comparison is extremely flawed, but of course you know it all. Don't bother rambling on and on and on back to me. I'm full as it sounds you are too. (haha, more 8th grade humor for ya).

03-26-2004, 07:58 PM	#96
clarnzz All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Following everyone off a cliff. Posts: 1,522	Wabbit season. Duck season. Wabbit season. Wabbit season. Duck season. FIRE!

03-26-2004, 08:06 PM	#97
Maria Nieves Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 44	OOTP has never claimed to be in the same class as EA. Why apply the same standards of a major corporation to a much smaller business. OOTP has a limited staff of programmers - Markus and...? The marketing is still in its infancy. It's still a word of mouth game. Maybe one day, when OOTP goes big, your criticism would hold more water. But right now, OOTP, arguably the best fictional baseball simulation, should not have a "before Opening Day" deadline. As far as your article is concerned, if you are actually a legitmate and professional writer, it would be fair to notfy your readers that OOTP is pretty much coded and designed by one programmer, as opposed to a team of programmers, a la EA. This deadline you're referring to seems to be a pet peeve of yours and your peers. But the people on these boards? They are just getting a bit antsy right now. They are itching for version 6 (read: NOT OOTP 2004). They are not revolting. There's some complaining, but that's normal with the anticipation of any game. The complainers will get over it soon enough. OOTP has a loyal following. It's like a grass roots campaign. The game is unbelievable. It really takes a Herculean effort to create such a masterpiece. Most of OOTP's customers know this and that's what makes this game so addictive. Why not cut a small business some slack? I do see your point if OOTP was Sega or some software powerhouse, selling a 2004 version. But this is OOTP, which is in a different market. It is a PC baseball text simulation. The fan base has direct contact with Markus on these boards, and he does everything he can to better the game through their input. I agree with you that the "official responses" have not been specific with up-to-date technical specs and are not as friendly as some would like, but they have been 110% honest about the game's release date and its features. Again, OOTP does not have a team of customer service representatives or a corporate headquarters with a boardroom full of marketing gurus or investors. So why compare the standards you put on EA to OOTP? Make no mistake about it- OOTP is not "late" in this reality. But if you keep town-crying this criticism, you actually are responsible for the "negative backlash" you proclaim will occur because of not being released before Opening Day. At the All-Star break, OOTP's fanbase will not even worry or even care to remember when the game was released!

03-26-2004, 08:11 PM	#98
MidnightPyro Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 228	I think we're all just anxious for the game to come out. Everyone wants the game to come out, and everyone is looking forward to the game. People are attempting to flame OOTP for the game not coming out. I highly doubt this will help anything happen...but maybe something like an open beta test from OOTP's side? An early release of the game, with the understanding that it'll have bugs, but it'll allow those of us that want to play it quick and have the bugs our chance, while the people that want to hold off until the "official" bug-free release their chance to wait. Why would something like this not work?

03-26-2004, 08:12 PM	#99
LeeHoFooks Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Shreveport Louisiana Posts: 30	Six pages of debate, and Glanville makes the most sense of all in his very first post. For some reason I find myself wanting to wretch everytime OOTP is compared to sports games that are produced mainly for game consoles. I even feel woozy when someone suggests that graphics be added to the game. Oh well. PS The earlier talk of how in older times you would have to read about the game in a Magizine and then wait, was classic. It brought back the memory of my early Strat-O-Matic days. Anyone else remember ordering the current season's player cards and then waiting and waiting and waiting for them to arrive? I think our UPS driver was actually afraid of me. The worst thing was when he came down our road and went right on past my house. Oh wait that wasn't worst. The worst was when he missed a stop and came back my direction, just to pass my house again.

03-26-2004, 08:12 PM	#100
Jack Bauer 24 Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 29	Oh the MVP Baseball you say is such a great game.............for true realism it's "fair" and could have EASILY used another month(that's 30 days-more 8th grade humor) in development as there are some GLARING issues, but I doubt you noticed since it met your most important goal of being out early(before the season). I'm not just talking minor issues, close to unplayable things.....BUT many "customers" have found ways around or altered files to make it "fair" rather than a mess. Doubt you'd notice though.