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Old 10-12-2013, 01:33 AM   #1
Postman
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He missed the tag!

I was born and raised in St. Louis, the Cardinals are my boyhood team and I've never liked the Dodgers, but they were robbed in the top of the tenth.

Molina never made the tag.

It was a terrible call by the home plate umpire.

Last edited by Postman; 10-12-2013 at 01:34 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old 10-12-2013, 07:36 AM   #2
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1. When you get beat that bad by the ball, you're NEVER going to get that call.

2. The umpire was blocked by Molina.

It was a bang-bang play, Molina's glove may have grazed Ellis' forearm (it looks different from the first-base line angle), and the ump didn't have a clear view of the play. You may disagree with the call, but I don't see any way you can claim it's a TERRIBLE call. It wasn't obvious either way.
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Old 10-12-2013, 01:27 PM   #3
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It was clear to the commentators. Molina turned his back to the runner before contact. One of them even said that the catcher "technically" didn't tag the runner.

There's a term for a play where a runner is not technically tagged: safe.

Umpiring is all about getting into the right position to see the play. They spend a lot of time on it in school. Being screened by one of the players is no excuse.

It cost the Dodgers the game.
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Old 10-12-2013, 01:36 PM   #4
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http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GLmb-bLa3b...600/belly1.gif

It's a heck of a lot closer than you're making it seem. In this screen shot of this anigif, it sure looks like the glove is touching the jersey...at the very least, the wrist is touching and that's damn close.

There have been much, much worse calls in the playoffs than this.
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Old 10-12-2013, 02:05 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MorseMoose View Post
...that's damn close.
Yes, but he has to make the tag. Molina didn't try.

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Originally Posted by MorseMoose View Post
There have been much, much worse calls in the playoffs than this.
Absolutely. Don Denkinger comes to mind.

This is a non-story, though. Nobody cares from what I can tell.

Then again, if replay were brought into baseball...

Last edited by Postman; 10-12-2013 at 02:06 PM. Reason: Subjunctive tense
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Old 10-12-2013, 02:23 PM   #6
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Then again, if replay were brought into baseball...
It likely wouldn't have been overturned.
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Old 10-12-2013, 02:48 PM   #7
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The ball beat him by a wide margin and he ran through the catcher blocking the plate who held onto the ball.

There is no uproar and no one cares because that will be called an out 99 of 100 times and should be.

It hurts when it's your team but the same play will be called the same way the next time it happens and the time after that.

Edit: I did not notice that you said you were a Cardinals fan the first time through. Still, not a bad or even surprising call. When the ball beats you by 10-15 feet and you run through a fielder who holds onto the ball, that's always going to be the call.
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Old 10-12-2013, 03:16 PM   #8
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There are a couple of things about how baseball is officiated that bug me (and evidently no one else).

It drives me nuts when shortstops drag their foot somewhere near the bag (within a foot perhaps) when attempting to complete a double play and get the out. The rule says you have to have the ball and touch the bag to get the force out.

I get a similar feeling when a second baseman drops the ball "transitioning" from his glove to his throwing hand to complete the DP, never clearly demonstrating that he caught the ball, and still gets the out at second.

If replay is introduced, I can't help but wonder what effect it will have on the game. It will simply be a matter of managers choosing when to have the umpires enforce the rules of the game.

How about we just enforce the rules all the time?

Whatever. There's no story here. That much is clear to me.
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Old 10-12-2013, 03:30 PM   #9
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It likely wouldn't have been overturned.
I disagree with that. It was clear as the play happened that Yadier did not tag him, but I was rooting for a few more innings. If i was a Dodgers fan/player I would be pretty upset. Forgot who said that Yadier was blocking the ump. I dont recall that, it might have been true which is why I didn't bother chiming in before. one look at this on replay as the play happened and it was clear as day he did not tag him. The SS above is not the play as it happened.
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Old 10-12-2013, 03:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Postman View Post
There are a couple of things about how baseball is officiated that bug me (and evidently no one else).

It drives me nuts when shortstops drag their foot somewhere near the bag (within a foot perhaps) when attempting to complete a double play and get the out. The rule says you have to have the ball and touch the bag to get the force out.

I get a similar feeling when a second baseman drops the ball "transitioning" from his glove to his throwing hand to complete the DP, never clearly demonstrating that he caught the ball, and still gets the out at second.

If replay is introduced, I can't help but wonder what effect it will have on the game. It will simply be a matter of managers choosing when to have the umpires enforce the rules of the game.

How about we just enforce the rules all the time?

Whatever. There's no story here. That much is clear to me.
The phantom front end of DPs used to bother me too.

I really hope that replay is never introduced in any 'full force' fashion. Games are too long already; any tinkering needs to be with an eye toward shaving time off.

What bothers me the most is when a pitcher throws to first 4,5, 7 times in a row. I like what Bill James had to say about that. Something to the effect of "we limit the number of balls a pitcher gets to four to in effect say that even at the plate, where all the action is, you have to actually do something with the baseball sooner or later. The only reason throws to a base aren't limited is because when the rules were drawn up, no one dreamed that a hundred years later, pitchers would be routinely throwing a half a dozen times to a bag within one at bat. If they had thought of that, they certainly would have put a limit forcing the pitcher to do something sooner or later there too."
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Old 10-12-2013, 03:38 PM   #11
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It likely wouldn't have been overturned.

Agreed. The forearm may have hit the glove, the shirt may have dragged across the glove. The standard in football is that video evidence has to unequivocally contradict the on field call to over rule. I doubt that would be the case here. Furthermore, replay would have likely resulted in no over-turn of the call and added 5-10 minutes to the game. Heaven help us if we ever get full blown replay in baseball.
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:09 PM   #12
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I will hate to live in a world where a play like that will be overturned... what a play by Molina.
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Old 10-13-2013, 08:36 PM   #13
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Quote:
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Agreed. The forearm may have hit the glove, the shirt may have dragged across the glove. The standard in football is that video evidence has to unequivocally contradict the on field call to over rule. I doubt that would be the case here. Furthermore, replay would have likely resulted in no over-turn of the call and added 5-10 minutes to the game. Heaven help us if we ever get full blown replay in baseball.
If that call was worth reviewing then about 50% of the tag plays at 2B would have to be reviewed. A significant % might be reversed.

While supporting any effort to get the call right, I don't see replay as a tool for plays like this.
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Old 10-14-2013, 01:40 AM   #14
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I'm essentially a perfect neutral in this series and I thought it was a terrible call. I understand the arguments above, but still, Molina didn't make the tag. There's really no way to get around that. Ellis was safe, no matter how much the ball beat him to the plate by.
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Old 10-14-2013, 01:44 AM   #15
Lukas Berger
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I will hate to live in a world where a play like that will be overturned... what a play by Molina.
What a play by Molina Really?

The ball easily beat the runner to the plate and Molina still couldn't manage to actually make the tag. He got that call entirely on his reputation. He's a great defensive catcher, no doubt about it, but his execution on that one play was putrid. The umpire being blind doesn't make a poor play into a great one.
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:45 AM   #16
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Ellis himself said he got tagged, so if the player who was called out thought he was out, it must not have been as bad of a call as a couple of you are trying to make it seem.

To see for myself how "obvious" the blown call was I did an image search. Immediately I noticed that a lot of the still images that have been made show Molina as far into the spin as possible. But I did manage to find this one:



That sure looks like Molina's glove that's causing a contact indentation on Ellis' forearm.
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Old 10-14-2013, 12:15 PM   #17
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I'm not sure that's conclusive, I actually think it's Molina's arm that's touching Ellis, but yeah, that's the first pic I've seen that makes me think that maybe it's even remotely possible Molina did make the tag. In the live video and all the replays I've seen, it didn't even look nearly that close.

Last edited by Lukas Berger; 10-14-2013 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 10-14-2013, 02:48 PM   #18
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I'm not sure that's conclusive, I actually think it's Molina's arm that's touching Ellis, but yeah, that's the first pic I've seen that makes me think that maybe it's even remotely possible Molina did make the tag. In the live video and all the replays I've seen, it didn't even look nearly that close.
Same here.
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Old 10-14-2013, 02:52 PM   #19
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Not only did Ellis think he was tagged, he said in a press conference that he was surprised that anyone even questioned it! Now that's not something someone says when he thought he scored the go-ahead run in a playoff game in extra innings but that the umpire blew the call.
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Old 10-15-2013, 05:26 PM   #20
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What a play by Molina Really?

The ball easily beat the runner to the plate and Molina still couldn't manage to actually make the tag. He got that call entirely on his reputation. He's a great defensive catcher, no doubt about it, but his execution on that one play was putrid. The umpire being blind doesn't make a poor play into a great one.
The great play was surviving the crash, not beating the runner.
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