CF's should get some RF/LF skill, and SS's should get some 2B skill

[IStillDream]

Hey all,
just a quick thought on a sort of minor point, but I think it's worth thinking about if it is't too much trouble. Generally speaking, I think the idea that a player's skill at a positon is a function of both their innate ratings and experience at that position makes quite a bit of sense--skill is based on practice, after all.

However, I have seen a decent number of examples of players in-game who are fairly highly rated CF's or SS's, but have no listed skill at all at the corner OF positions and 2B respectively. Now, obviously, there are plays that corner outfielders face that center fielders don't (like dealing with the actual physical corners) but I would think that some degree of skill would definitely transfer across, since, generally speaking, the demands of the position call for doing the same thing that the corner OF's do over a larger expanse of territory. Similarly, while second basemen certainly have to make some plays that SS do not, most of the skills that you need to be a sucessful shortstop are the same as those needed at 2B. In both cases, it would be reductive, but not wholly misleading, to say that playing CF or SS is like playing RF or 2B, but somewhat more difficult (though with SS/2B, the difference is mostly in the need for arm strength at the former).

I'm not suggesting that they have the same rating at both positions, just that, say, someone with an 18/20 rating at SS should get an automatic 11/20 at 2B even if they don't have any expereince there.

[olivertheorem]

I understand what you're saying, and it's not a bad idea, per se. But, remembering that a highly rated SS would also likely be a highly rated 2B, one could consider the period between a 0 rating and 11 to be a sort of "ramping up" period during which the SS is refamiliarizing himself with the position. An 18/20 SS wouldn't take very long to get to 11/20, I don't think.

[The Game]

Why don't they just give all players a 10 skill at every position so I don't have to get a CF with a skill above 5.

[David Watts]

When playing fictional there are already way too many guys that can play multiple positions. Way too many.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by IStillDream

Hey all,
just a quick thought on a sort of minor point, but I think it's worth thinking about if it is't too much trouble. Generally speaking, I think the idea that a player's skill at a positon is a function of both their innate ratings and experience at that position makes quite a bit of sense--skill is based on practice, after all.

However, I have seen a decent number of examples of players in-game who are fairly highly rated CF's or SS's, but have no listed skill at all at the corner OF positions and 2B respectively. Now, obviously, there are plays that corner outfielders face that center fielders don't (like dealing with the actual physical corners) but I would think that some degree of skill would definitely transfer across, since, generally speaking, the demands of the position call for doing the same thing that the corner OF's do over a larger expanse of territory. Similarly, while second basemen certainly have to make some plays that SS do not, most of the skills that you need to be a sucessful shortstop are the same as those needed at 2B. In both cases, it would be reductive, but not wholly misleading, to say that playing CF or SS is like playing RF or 2B, but somewhat more difficult (though with SS/2B, the difference is mostly in the need for arm strength at the former).

I'm not suggesting that they have the same rating at both positions, just that, say, someone with an 18/20 rating at SS should get an automatic 11/20 at 2B even if they don't have any expereince there.

What type of league are you playing? As David says there are way too many players who have 4 IF position gold glove talent. Many also develop significant LF talent. It creates a real problem with the AI platooning defensive position by SP handedness, something that does not occur in real baseball where the vast majority of skilled (read starting) players play one position 90% of the time.

Originally Posted by David Watts

When playing fictional there are already way too many guys that can play multiple positions. Way too many.

RQFT

[ike121212]

Originally Posted by David Watts

When playing fictional there are already way too many guys that can play multiple positions. Way too many.

IMO, the way position experience works is root of these issues. It needs to degrade over time, when players aren't used at a position. If that happens, then I agree with the OP.

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by ike121212

IMO, the way position experience works is root of these issues. It needs to degrade over time, when players aren't used at a position. If that happens, then I agree with the OP.

I like this idea a lot.

In other words, make the fielding ratings themselves (Range/Error/Arm/TDP etc.) more static (changing slowly as they improve if at all) while the position rating becomes way more fluid that is easy to move up and down and the only way it stays all the way up is to play it every day. And it goes down significantly as soon as you've not played it X number of games or whatever.

I think that is very good. It sort of simulates a real life shortstop who obviously has the skills to play second, but hasn't since say high school, and there is an adjustment period for him to go through. It's not near as long as someone learning the position from scratch say, so it improves quickly, but does show rust due to the fact that he hasn't played there much.

So when an emergency comes up and he's playing at second, for about two weeks to a month, maybe two, his position rating is low but rises fairly quickly to whateve his maximum position rating at that position is.

Is that close to a description of what you're saying??? If so, I like it a lot. Very good idea IMO.

[IStillDream]

Originally Posted by ike121212

IMO, the way position experience works is root of these issues. It needs to degrade over time, when players aren't used at a position. If that happens, then I agree with the OP.

That sounds terrific. I'd be onboard 100%.

[IStillDream]

Originally Posted by RchW

What type of league are you playing? As David says there are way too many players who have 4 IF position gold glove talent. Many also develop significant LF talent. It creates a real problem with the AI platooning defensive position by SP handedness, something that does not occur in real baseball where the vast majority of skilled (read starting) players play one position 90% of the time.



RQFT

Standard major leagues, but I'm only in my third season and haven't really come across that. Although, come to think of it, I did see several weird examples of it when looking at the prospective draftees for this year's pool--there was a pretty good reliever who was also rated above 12 at 3 other defensive positions (no hitting ability though). Truth be told, if he was still around in the last round I was considering drafting him, in case he panned out and I got a defensive replacement and relief arm in one (also, he'd let you pull that hilarious trick where, facing hitters who are R-L-R, you bring in a righty reliever for a righthanded batter, move them to a defensive position when you bring in your lefty specialist, and then move them back to pitcher for the third guy).

[RchW]

Originally Posted by IStillDream

Standard major leagues, but I'm only in my third season and haven't really come across that. Although, come to think of it, I did see several weird examples of it when looking at the prospective draftees for this year's pool--there was a pretty good reliever who was also rated above 12 at 3 other defensive positions (no hitting ability though). Truth be told, if he was still around in the last round I was considering drafting him, in case he panned out and I got a defensive replacement and relief arm in one (also, he'd let you pull that hilarious trick where, facing hitters who are R-L-R, you bring in a righty reliever for a righthanded batter, move them to a defensive position when you bring in your lefty specialist, and then move them back to pitcher for the third guy).

Take a look at AI batting lineups and you will see SS/2B and occasionaly 3B switching positions vs RHP and LHP. It happens in the OF too. This happens rarely IRL.

[IStillDream]

Originally Posted by RchW

Take a look at AI batting lineups and you will see SS/2B and occasionaly 3B switching positions vs RHP and LHP. It happens in the OF too. This happens rarely IRL.

Wow, I had no idea. Interesting--I'll keep an eye out.

[kingcharlesxii]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

I like this idea a lot.

In other words, make the fielding ratings themselves (Range/Error/Arm/TDP etc.) more static (changing slowly as they improve if at all) while the position rating becomes way more fluid that is easy to move up and down and the only way it stays all the way up is to play it every day. And it goes down significantly as soon as you've not played it X number of games or whatever.

I think that is very good. It sort of simulates a real life shortstop who obviously has the skills to play second, but hasn't since say high school, and there is an adjustment period for him to go through. It's not near as long as someone learning the position from scratch say, so it improves quickly, but does show rust due to the fact that he hasn't played there much.

So when an emergency comes up and he's playing at second, for about two weeks to a month, maybe two, his position rating is low but rises fairly quickly to whateve his maximum position rating at that position is.

Is that close to a description of what you're saying??? If so, I like it a lot. Very good idea IMO.

Yeah, this is how I pictured it. Basically, a SS playing 2nd shouldn't be as bad initially as a 1B playing there but he also shouldn't immediately be a Gold Glove candidate either. The problem right now is that a guy is just as good moving to a position that he last played years ago as he is for a position he played last week.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by kingcharlesxii

Yeah, this is how I pictured it. Basically, a SS playing 2nd shouldn't be as bad initially as a 1B playing there but he also shouldn't immediately be a Gold Glove candidate either. The problem right now is that a guy is just as good moving to a position that he last played years ago as he is for a position he played last week.

The threshold ratings for competent defensive performance is too low. Combine this with the stated AI reliance on batting skills over all else for lineup construction and you have problems. I can document 5-8 instances of a long time often AS 1B signing as a FA at 32-35 and being switched to SS because they retained threshold skills at that position. Player defensive skills should not be retained after 30 (or pick what age you want) but should actively decline unless someone can show evidence otherwise. A player who becomes a long time regular at a lesser position on the defensive spectrum should lose almost all the skills required at any better position. That way a 2B and a SS would retain skills that a 1B and a 3B would not.