Players and thier injuries should not be digital!

[Gator]

So if players are not digital why are injuries? A player gets hurt and he's out for exactly x number of days and then he comes back 100%. Or in contrast he is exactly x% degraded for x days and then is 100%. That's not how it should work in my opinion.

Please forgive me if others have posted on this in the past, but I feel that an injury should always start out with a percentage of performance degradation, anywhere from 1 to 100% and then over time the percentage gets smaller. The percentage could of course become permanent or could get worse similar to our current "set back" situation.

This change would present more challenging decisions for GMs as to whether to DL the player or not. Now I know some injuries are permanent until treated, such as a broken wrist or bad knee. Those injuries can be indicated as such, and then the degraded percentage would be indicated as permanent until treated. Then the GM would have to decide whether to DL his star and have the injury addressed or have the player play on in a heroic pennant drive. You could even have the player refuse to play with the injury unaddressed. I'm not a programmer, but I don't think this should be too difficult. Anyway, I'd be interested to hear what others have to say.

[TribeFanInNC]

Actually, that is good idea and probably wouldn't be too tricky code*.

*says the person who hasn't coded anything harder than an if/then loop in his life....

[chucksabr]

Nice one. I would think coding it would be a matter of establishing probabilities for relapse.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by Gator

So if players are not digital why are injuries? A player gets hurt and he's out for exactly x number of days and then he comes back 100%. Or in contrast he is exactly x% degraded for x days and then is 100%. That's not how it should work in my opinion.

Please forgive me if others have posted on this in the past, but I feel that an injury should always start out with a percentage of performance degradation, anywhere from 1 to 100% and then over time the percentage gets smaller. The percentage could of course become permanent or could get worse similar to our current "set back" situation.

This change would present more challenging decisions for GMs as to whether to DL the player or not. Now I know some injuries are permanent until treated, such as a broken wrist or bad knee. Those injuries can be indicated as such, and then the degraded percentage would be indicated as permanent until treated. Then the GM would have to decide whether to DL his star and have the injury addressed or have the player play on in a heroic pennant drive. You could even have the player refuse to play with the injury unaddressed. I'm not a programmer, but I don't think this should be too difficult. Anyway, I'd be interest to hear what others have to say.

I disagree with this in part. I do like this part "anywhere from 1 to 100% and then over time the percentage gets smaller. The percentage could of course become permanent or could get worse" but you dont always know how long a player will be out. i have out 2 players on te dL not knowing what their dignosis was going to be because i did not have a #4 SP or a backup C so i was forced to out them on the DL. the SP turned out to be DtD for 4 days, the C was on the DL for 17 days 4 of which I had already out him on there for. I would like to see DtD's get better or worse with each passing day instead of being at a 22% loss for the entire 4 days due to a sprained ankle.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by The Game

I disagree with this in part. I do like this part "anywhere from 1 to 100% and then over time the percentage gets smaller. The percentage could of course become permanent or could get worse" but you dont always know how long a player will be out. i have out 2 players on te dL not knowing what their dignosis was going to be because i did not have a #4 SP or a backup C so i was forced to out them on the DL. the SP turned out to be DtD for 4 days, the C was on the DL for 17 days 4 of which I had already out him on there for. I would like to see DtD's get better or worse with each passing day instead of being at a 22% loss for the entire 4 days due to a sprained ankle.

The amount of time a player is out should usually always be an approximation based on the percentage.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

Nice one. I would think coding it would be a matter of establishing probabilities for relapse.

who is the girl in your avatar?

[rpriske]

But... that IS how it works, no?

Players are hurt for a percentage from 1% (theoretically) to 100% (unable to play).

If they are unable to play they are unable to play. Once that is no longer the case, they are eligible to come back.

If they ARE able to play but are still hurt (and have a % drop in playing ability), you are told that.

[Gator]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

The amount of time a player is out should usually always be an approximation based on the percentage.

Yes I agree there should be variability which in part is addressed by the ever changing percentage of injury degradation.

[Gator]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

who is the girl in your avatar?

I'm not exactly sure. I want to say it's Jane Mansfield, and I'm pretty sure it was taken at an old AAA Hollywood Stars baseball game, because I was researching them at one time, but I don't know for sure. It just sort of made me happy at the time I was looking for a photo to use.

[TribeFanInNC]

So, yeah. There are a couple different situations involved here....Out v. Day to Day (DtD).

If you are out, then yes you are out and the % doesn't really matter. I think the OP's point applies more to the DtD type injury. I could envision where I player sprains a finger and would be listed as DtD at 20% for 2 weeks. Maybe the % stays at 20 for a week, then the % goes down by 3 each day until it gets back to 0. If there is a setback, then the % goes back up and we rinse/lather/repeat.

A secondary application might be to use this system at the end of an 'Out' injury (i.e. like during rehab).

[Gator]

Originally Posted by rpriske

But... that IS how it works, no?

Players are hurt for a percentage from 1% (theoretically) to 100% (unable to play).

If they are unable to play they are unable to play. Once that is no longer the case, they are eligible to come back.

If they ARE able to play but are still hurt (and have a % drop in playing ability), you are told that.

It's like this, if you twist an ankle on day one you can't play and you are 100% degraded. On day two you can play with great pain so now maybe you are 80% degraded, on day three it's a little better etc. As opposed to the player is 30% degraded for 7 days and then is completely healed. So the injury is in a way analog and not digital (On or Off).

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by rpriske

But... that IS how it works, no?

Players are hurt for a percentage from 1% (theoretically) to 100% (unable to play).

If they are unable to play they are unable to play. Once that is no longer the case, they are eligible to come back.

If they ARE able to play but are still hurt (and have a % drop in playing ability), you are told that.

But those are hard numbers. You have the initial waiting period to find out the diagnosis, and then are told, definitively, that your player is either out for X days, or has a Y% decrease in efficiency for X days. Obviously, for a broken arm or something, the player will be unable to play for X months, and everyone knows that. But for, say, a pulled hamstring? In real life, no one knows how long a player's going to be out with that. But in OOTP, you're told, "yeah, this guy won't be able to play for two weeks. Best put him on the DL."

What Gator is proposing (and it's pretty much exactly the idea I've pulled for in the past) is more variables. That pulled hamstring would instead be diagnosed as an 80% performance drop and would have a much wider time span for a return (say, 1-4 weeks). This not only creates much more strategy when deciding whether to DL a guy (since he could return in a week, or he could be out for a month), but - and this is the big one, in my opinion - it allows you to play him through the injury, if you so choose. That's one thing that OOTP distinctly lacks. With the injury system set up as it is, we will never see a Bloody Sock moment, or a player playing through a broken rib during a playoff push and ending up needing surgery in the offseason. These things happen in real life. In OOTP, though, a broken rib means you're done. Achilles tendon? Nope, you're not playing. We want to remove these hard-line, black or white statuses for all but the most severe injuries (broken bones, torn ACL, etc.).

With the current model, sure, you can play a guy through a DtD injury, but it also tells you exactly when he'll be 100% again. There's no strategy there unless it's Game 7 of a playoff series: "Oh, this guy's playing at 70% efficiency for two days? We don't really need him until then, anyway, so let's just rest him." With the proposed model, you don't know that return date. You don't know just how long the guy's going to be laid up if you choose not to play him. Nor do you know how much risk you're putting him at by playing him.

Sure, the idea needs some refining, but it has serious potential. Not only would it open up a whole world of strategy, but it also would make everything more realistic - using the same code that determines the performance drop and the recovery, you could have a variable that determines the risk of worsening the injury by playing. Or the chance of re-injuring it later in the season. It also brings player morale into account - a selfish or lazy player could refuse to be put in the lineup if he's hurt, while a workhorse might take a morale hit if you don't play him while he thinks he could. It's basically taking the current system and giving it complexity.

[pjh5165]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

With the proposed model, you don't know that return date. You don't know just how long the guy's going to be laid up if you choose not to play him. Nor do you know how much risk you're putting him at by playing him.

Sure, the idea needs some refining, but it has serious potential. Not only would it open up a whole world of strategy, but it also would make everything more realistic - using the same code that determines the performance drop and the recovery, you could have a variable that determines the risk of worsening the injury by playing. Or the chance of re-injuring it later in the season.

Love this idea. One thing OOTP is missing is the nagging injuries that often hinder players for months on end, even though they are still capable of taking the field. Think Miguel Cabrera's groin strain at the end of this season, or Justin Upton's wrist injury in 2012. I would love to see some system that could mimic these type of injuries.

[Gator]

Really excellent post Fyerstorm. You put the detail on my idea that I left out. And yes PJH, I would love to see those kinds of RL injurys play out in our game. I could see a whole new tab for the game, which would be the "Training Room" in which you would be updated on each player's condition. You would have players ask for a day off etc. I also think it would be kind of cool to have the little nicks and strains of baseball occur during the season, maybe 5% or less type injuries. I mean after six months of playing there are very few players who are totally injury free. I think our current system of players getting tired is sort of that type of thing, but I think an off day should not always be a complete cure.

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

who is the girl in your avatar?

I completely missed this question.

The girl who used to be in my avatar is Mélissa Theuriau,the French news reader:



The girl in my avatar as of today is Jessica Williams from the Daily Show:

[Snarf054]

This is actually somewhat related to my biggest pet peeve with the game. You see the injury reaggravated out an extra week or the like stuff all the time, but you never see Player X is progressing better than doctors expected and will be able to come off the DL two weeks earlier ever.

I can accpet the fact that it can sometimes take longer to heal but I want to see players occasionally make a faster recovery as well. Happens in real life all the time it should in OOTP as well.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by Snarf054

This is actually somewhat related to my biggest pet peeve with the game. You see the injury reaggravated out an extra week or the like stuff all the time, but you never see Player X is progressing better than doctors expected and will be able to come off the DL two weeks earlier ever.

I can accpet the fact that it can sometimes take longer to heal but I want to see players occasionally make a faster recovery as well. Happens in real life all the time it should in OOTP as well.

Yep, and the system mentioned herein would take care of that by completely eliminating setbacks. There'd be no need to have a "player is going to be out longer than expected" message when you don't have an expected return date in the first place.


I love how chuck bumped this thread to talk about his avatar.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

I love how chuck bumped this thread to talk about his avatar.

He does have great avatars, though I preferred the last one to the current one

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Snarf054

This is actually somewhat related to my biggest pet peeve with the game. You see the injury reaggravated out an extra week or the like stuff all the time, but you never see Player X is progressing better than doctors expected and will be able to come off the DL two weeks earlier ever.

I can accpet the fact that it can sometimes take longer to heal but I want to see players occasionally make a faster recovery as well. Happens in real life all the time it should in OOTP as well.

All of that is good except the "will be able to come off the DL early". No matter how quick or slow a player heals, you can't take him off the DL early. If a player is on for 15 days, he can't come off for 15 days, no matter what. Same for 60 day DL.


I like where this is going, but the thing with percentages is, they're still "digital". You won't ever be able to change the "digital" part as long as it's computer run. And every player is different, so you need to program that in too. One player might suffer a 20% performance loss for a groin strain, another may suffer 30%, another 10%. No two players will ever suffer the exact same from an injury. I think that's one of the reasons it is the way it is now, to simplify the programming. Of course I know zilch about programming, so that's purely speculation on my part.


Some great ideas here though.

[Snarf054]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

All of that is good except the "will be able to come off the DL early". No matter how quick or slow a player heals, you can't take him off the DL early. If a player is on for 15 days, he can't come off for 15 days, no matter what. Same for 60 day DL.

True but if a player that is out 4 months with a rotator problem suddenly becomes available after 3 months that is 30 less days he is sitting there after he could come off the 60 day DL. It would also add a little more strategy to 2 week injuries. Do you not DL him and take the chance he may be able to return early? Or do you DL him and cuss when he is ready after ony a week and has another week on the DL?