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Old 07-15-2008, 01:50 AM   #1
Gambo
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New Gambo DB Coming --- Addressing the Public's Complaints and Giving Them what they desire!

While contemplating some stuff the other night I realized a simple but awesome way to correct some of the complaints about my database. When I set up this years version for OOTP9 I did not know that Markus was going to add in the use "adjusted stats" option and the doors it would open up for making my DB more efficient and user friendly.

For those who are not familiar with my database it's basic design is that
1) upon import all players will be with the proper team and organization (even if they have not made their major league debut) with their correct organization as of opening day at a rating level appropriate to their experience. --- When you import 1981 and you look at the Yankees Bob Watson will be their 1B, but Don Mattingly, Fred McGriff and Steve Balboni will be in their minor league system.
2) real players will be created when they made their professional debut with the proper organization and not when they made their major debut with that organization. --- Jim "The Rookie" Morris will import as a 19 year old in 1983 with the Milwaukee Brewers and not @ 35 with the Tampa Bay Rays
3) Implemented Japanese Seasons using Major League Equivalencies. --- Orestes Destrade and Karl Rhodes will not be more than just marginal players due to their late development over seas.
4) Managers who never played in the majors will import as players accordingly. --- Buck Showalter in 1977 with the New York Yankees
5) 50 Negro Leaguers who never reached the majors. --- Josh Gibson or Babe Ruth?
6) 85 Assorted Minor Leaguers who never reached the majors. --- #1 pick Brien Taylor, John Elway

Reorganizing the design of my database to take advantage of this feature will alleviate some of the issues the community has had with my database.

Here are some of the fixes I have come up with.
1) Neutralized Statistics:
Problem:
Some people don't like the fact that I don't use neutralized statistics and for the longest time I argued against the issue. However, after seeing the results of a neutralized statistical system I feel this would be better
Solution:
All my statistics are now recalculated and adjusted using the provided neutralized statistics. I.E. my database will now be a neutralized database and will function only when using the "use neutralized statistics" function in game. (I state only since if you don't use neutralized statistics the player debut seasons will be incorrect)

2) The multiple directory design:
Problem:
This has caused a problem as some people have had difficulty cutting and pasting or using excel to properly set up the database. Also the need for a "yearly" and "import" directly was impractical since the beginning but necessary due to what I was hoping to accomplish with how statistics appeared in game.
Solution:
The game is now designed to function keeping your world statistics, real life statistics and the neutralized statistics separate. Since I dont have to worry about my "created" stat lines showing up in game I don't have to make amends to alleviate the issue.

3) Players showing up too early:
Problem:
Since my database uses false years stat lines (statistics) sometimes the computer would bring players to the majors too early.
Solution:
I have tweaked my statistics some, however, for the most part this is a problem with the game engine. Markus has implemented many features in this years version to alleviate the situation such as using real life usage and doubling current years affect which will improve upon this.

4) The inflexibility of use and some historical issues:
Problem:
Some people wanted to use the database without the Negro Leagues (players like Hank Aaron and Willie Mays do not import with the Braves and Giants respectively but rather as Free Agents due to their time in the Negro Leagues) or without the "minor leaguers" or without "Japan".
Solution:
I will try to include at least a couple of versions of the master file that can be used so your group of players and proximity to history can be determined by the user.

I am up to the last stage of putting this together and was hoping to have it done today for testing but it didn't work out as I planned. I will be completing it sometime within the next couple of days, will test it to see if it functions as I hope (post some results) and hopefully have it released sometime by the end of the weekend.

Does anybody have any questions?
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Old 07-15-2008, 02:31 AM   #2
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Just a little one : Will it be possible to use it for a 1871 start? The version that I use currently is reject by the game for any pre 1901 simulation, but maybe I do something wrong...
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Old 07-15-2008, 07:50 AM   #3
clamel
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I like this DB, but I even would like to see more minor leaguers in your DB.
So many had huge careers but itīs just flukes that didnīt permit them to make it to the big one. Injuries and stuff made many major leaguers of players that was far worse than others.
Some like Chris Coste (Catcher) had very long minor league careers and then just popped up in the majors.
Guys like John Elway never really made any impact on baseball, so I could live without him. Let him play Football.

Good luck to set this monster in order. Will be waiting.....
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Old 07-15-2008, 10:29 AM   #4
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Gambo,

Will your DB allow for players to be rated at more positions than just their rookie season? I don't like the way the game has gone back to only rating a player for the position(s) he played during his rookie season. I would prefer them to be rated at the positions they played a significant amount of time at as the other modified DB have done in the past. I have rarely used the regular Lahman through the years because of this. Markus had fixed that problem when he allowed you the option of importing defense based on the entire career rather than the rookie season but he has now for some reason taken away that option. For my style and enjoyment of the game, this has really dampened my enthusiasm for the game.
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Old 07-15-2008, 06:16 PM   #5
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RE: neutralized stats...

We had a hell of a time getting the offense to come down to proper stat levels league-wide during beta testing. IOW, the offense was unbelievably overpowering.

Now my question - will you base the neutralized stats on the 750 R/G that James originally did, or will you use the 715 R/G value that Baseball Reference uses for their neutralized stats?
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Old 07-15-2008, 06:27 PM   #6
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Just a memo on my playresults on your old DB Gambo.

I take the Cards as an example and the starting year 1987.

Todd Zeile was already in the roster since he had some minor league years before he became a major. Unfortunately the stats you put on him was so great he was directly moved into the active roster. Thus creating sort of historical problems with Tony Pena and the next first catcher Tom Pagnozzi. Zeile wasnīt a catcher later on very much, but more replacing Terry Pendleton on 3B.

Many more players came into the majors very much earlier than historical much because overrated stats. This affects only players that had more than a couple of years in the minors. They just popped up directly in the active roster. That is a miss IMHO. No way to groom them for the future.

Another problems that might be just an opinion is that some BIG time players actually started their career in the minors in other clubs than they actually became stars and famous.
Just a feeling on this Gambo..... I can live with this since many trades in a dynasty will reck any history along the years.

Will any fixing with Neutralized stats fix the problem with these much to early players....
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Old 07-15-2008, 07:05 PM   #7
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The database seems to be already in the test phase, but I have a little request. Is it possible to add this minor league player to the database (he has never played in the major league). I always simulate the Expos and since he is one the few French Canadian that was a part of the organization, I will appreciate to have him.

Marc Griffin

Thanks if you can. If it's not the case it's not the end of the world.
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Old 07-15-2008, 07:30 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AESP_pres View Post
Just a little one : Will it be possible to use it for a 1871 start? The version that I use currently is reject by the game for any pre 1901 simulation, but maybe I do something wrong...
It should function exactly as the included database does. So if you can do 1871 with neutralized stats then it still should.
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Old 07-15-2008, 07:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clamel View Post
I like this DB, but I even would like to see more minor leaguers in your DB.
So many had huge careers but itīs just flukes that didnīt permit them to make it to the big one. Injuries and stuff made many major leaguers of players that was far worse than others.
Some like Chris Coste (Catcher) had very long minor league careers and then just popped up in the majors.
Guys like John Elway never really made any impact on baseball, so I could live without him. Let him play Football.

Good luck to set this monster in order. Will be waiting.....
I'd like to add more but they really have very little impact in the league. They kind of act now as an easter egg for players. Sort of a "HEY LOOK" moment while your playing. Possibly down the line I'll add more but it's not a focus right now.
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Old 07-15-2008, 07:34 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SittingDuck View Post
RE: neutralized stats...

We had a hell of a time getting the offense to come down to proper stat levels league-wide during beta testing. IOW, the offense was unbelievably overpowering.

Now my question - will you base the neutralized stats on the 750 R/G that James originally did, or will you use the 715 R/G value that Baseball Reference uses for their neutralized stats?
Which one does the included database use becuase that it the neutralized stats I did my calculations based on. I used whatever were included with the game simply becuase that is what many of the other features of the game are tuned to.
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Old 07-15-2008, 07:43 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clamel View Post
Just a memo on my playresults on your old DB Gambo.

I take the Cards as an example and the starting year 1987.

Todd Zeile was already in the roster since he had some minor league years before he became a major. Unfortunately the stats you put on him was so great he was directly moved into the active roster. Thus creating sort of historical problems with Tony Pena and the next first catcher Tom Pagnozzi. Zeile wasnīt a catcher later on very much, but more replacing Terry Pendleton on 3B.

Many more players came into the majors very much earlier than historical much because overrated stats. This affects only players that had more than a couple of years in the minors. They just popped up directly in the active roster. That is a miss IMHO. No way to groom them for the future.

Another problems that might be just an opinion is that some BIG time players actually started their career in the minors in other clubs than they actually became stars and famous.
Just a feeling on this Gambo..... I can live with this since many trades in a dynasty will reck any history along the years.

Will any fixing with Neutralized stats fix the problem with these much to early players....
I addressed this issue with number 3 in my post. But yes I do believe this was an issue. I made a few tweaks to take into account this but the problem is more with the generation of ratings and not the database. Players already existing in the league are recalculated, however, players who are created are not recalculated and are left with rating based purely on their initial import while the existing players are calculated. If you look at you league you will see that often "Zeile(s)" will play significantly when they are imported but then will decline and maybe not play in the majors for a couple of years.

I'm hoping the player evaluation tweaks Markus made improves this situation.
Here is a look at Zeiles basic stats from my DB. He was a career average .265 hitter (neutralized). In 1987 he should only be rated to hit .186. As I said it is more of a program than database issue. But I do hope it improves. I'll know better when I test it.

Average 139 489 130 = .265
1988 1 SLN NL 139 489 98 = .200
1987 1 SLN NL 139 489 91 = .186
1986 1 SLN NL 139 489 78 = .160
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:01 AM   #12
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One last question (I think) : does it mean that your new database will be in the historical_database.odb format in place of a Master.csv format?
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:47 PM   #13
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If it works with Zeile as you show, him batting less then the Mendoza line I think it will work out as it should.

Zeile in the old format wasnīt hitting - .200 but being a starter for the Cards in 87 or 88 and causing historical problems (if one can say so).

Lots of other players did so as well.

Iīm having real problems accepting the new retire as in history option.
We got career ending injuries that can happen (mine Craig Biggio in 1989) and then many of these retire dates are because of same career injuries.
Or take Thurmon Munson...
In any history dynasty started he might not die, and someone else do.
With retire as history one gets HUGE problems with players that just played 1 year in the majors. They might be back in another universe so to say. Here I hope you NOT only start players before they hit the majors BUT ALSO set them up in years they played after that small stint in the Majors. This is why I ask for some stellar players that like Chris Coste driffted around AAA and then with a surprise got a shot.

Any universe started by gamers should have different results thanks to what happens to players.
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Old 07-16-2008, 06:44 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gambo View Post
Which one does the included database use becuase that it the neutralized stats I did my calculations based on. I used whatever were included with the game simply becuase that is what many of the other features of the game are tuned to.
I believe Garlon said 700? You could check with him or Spritze.
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Old 07-16-2008, 11:08 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by AESP_pres View Post
One last question (I think) : does it mean that your new database will be in the historical_database.odb format in place of a Master.csv format?
Since I dont know how to create an .odb file or have the program to do it. (whichever) it will use a master.csv
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Old 07-20-2008, 03:32 AM   #16
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I have been trying to get the database tested and these are some of the things I've noticed.

1. (Good) There is little difference it seems whether you use the .odb file or the master.csv for information.

2. (Bad) Despite what was implied before the game came out, when using neutralized statistics, players do not import to teams during "missing seasons". Ted Williams during the war, Dave Winfield in 1989. If you start a league during any of these seasons then those players will not import in game.

3. (Good/Bad) In doing some quick testing I've found that my minor leaguers are importing correctly, however, I'm finding that since there is no stat line in the "real" stats then they will not import to the correct teams, instead they will be minor league FA's. I'm going to try a work around to this but I am not certain it will work.
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Old 07-20-2008, 12:02 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gambo View Post
I have been trying to get the database tested and these are some of the things I've noticed.

2. (Bad) Despite what was implied before the game came out, when using neutralized statistics, players do not import to teams during "missing seasons". Ted Williams during the war, Dave Winfield in 1989. If you start a league during any of these seasons then those players will not import in game.
They don't import in the league at all or they are just in the retired players list? This is the same with the version I use (2007 1.5), I just go to the list and unretired and assign the player to their team. By exemple in 1969 Mike Jorgensen and Brian Dillman doesn't import. But if they don't import at all this is a completly different story...
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Old 07-20-2008, 07:25 PM   #18
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The simple fix I have come up with is just creating a straight blank stat line for the years where the player didnt play in the majors. This doesn't work if your not using the "neutralized" stats system.

If you are using neutralized statistics you can create a blank line (the year and team the player is on) in the batting.csv and have they "statistics" in the batting2.csv it will import the player but with no statitics, technically speaking, in their career totals and real life stats.

I dont know how this will affect the "real life usage" option but will check that in testing. I am going to try to put the blank lines in the fielding.csv since this is seen the least of the stats.

BTW,Since I am understanding how the real life stats and the neutralized stats react in game, I will do the career fielding averages in the neutralized stats. Since "real life usage" should play them at the proper positions maybe? This is why we test....

But this is what it looks like now in game... (League stats, real life stats, neutralized)
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Old 07-28-2008, 12:07 AM   #19
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Hey guys,

The database is technically done. The main reason I haven't gotten it so far as I feel comfortable releasing it is that my wife is 8+ months pregnant with twins and I'm squeezing it in completing it and running tests.

The last thing I've noticed is that the game really does not use neutralized fielding statistics. The fielding2.csv file is only used when there are no listed fielding stats in the the fielding.csv for that season. Soooo.... the only way to have average career fielding stats is have a replacement for the "real" fielding statistics. Doing this is not a problem but it will have 1 good point but 2 bad points.

#1 Good - the player will be rated based on career fielding averages.

#1 Bad - the option to use "real" usage may be voided

#2 Bad - you will be unable to see real fielding stats in game using this file.
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Old 07-28-2008, 11:58 AM   #20
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TWINS,
you better hurry and finish this. We will not see or hear from you in a long time after the happening.
If anything is out of whack when you release it you will be fighting a deadline that will be the BIG day. After that you got your hands full

My best wishes to you and your wife......
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