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OOTP 20 - General Discussions Everything about the newest version of Out of the Park Baseball - officially licensed by MLB.com and the MLBPA. |
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01-11-2020, 11:46 PM | #1 |
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Request for defensive catching metrics
How do you tell the impact of a catcher on a pitching staff with all the noise in catching stats? Plus we are given ZR which is a bunk stat for catchers. And what does Eff measure in a catcher? It is purely an OOTP stat, no?
I have a catcher with a terrible Eff with 13 ability on a 20 point scale. The backup has 17 ability and way better Eff and cERA. I don't know what is noise and what is sample size. Any chance we can get some better catching stats in OOTP 21?? Please. |
01-12-2020, 12:52 PM | #2 |
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Can you tell us which stats for catchers currently available would be useful that we don't currently have?
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01-12-2020, 02:02 PM | #3 | |
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1. Pitch Framing-the ability or inability to steal strikes for the pitcher. 2. Pitcher/Catcher communication(better term?)- ability to positively impact the performance of the pitcher through both motivation and pitch calling |
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01-12-2020, 02:10 PM | #4 | |
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01-12-2020, 03:07 PM | #5 |
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I agree. Those may be useful ratings but what stats in the real world would you base them off of?
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01-12-2020, 05:14 PM | #6 |
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There should be a way to suss out a pitch framing stat given that Fangraphs uses it in their WAR calculation. As it is in OOTP now, pitchers are stealing WAR from defensive catchers.
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01-12-2020, 05:23 PM | #7 |
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Last I remember it being discussed on these forums, someone had provided some evidence that because everyone knows about pitch framing now, the amount gained from the worst catcher to the best is pretty minimal. If there are some good stats out there that say otherwise though, then yeah, I'd be for seeing it in game.
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01-12-2020, 05:28 PM | #8 | |
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Actual Strikes- Expected Strikes= Extra Extended into Runs saved for the year Defensive Runs Saved -Adjusted Earned Runs Saved-staff handling I feel the game currently undervalues the defensive contribution of good catchers especially in staff handling and pitch framing. I hope future versions will incorporate this important part of baseball. These stats are available in the annual Bill James Handbook and online. |
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01-12-2020, 05:57 PM | #9 |
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The simple problem with things like this, particularly pitch framing, in OOTP is that they measure something discernible from the games being played out. For pitch framing, it's pitches called strikes that are actually out of the strike zone. So how does OOTP track that when we don't have pitch locations that matter in the game? The pitch location graphic is cosmetic only and does not affect gameplay. So there's currently no mechanic in the game that can be measured to come up with a pitch framing stat or rating.
In terms of motivating a pitcher, that's something that's not even tracked or given a scout rating in real life, so it's certainly impossible to add to OOTP. As RainKing said, some of these things are already folded into the catcher rating. Unless there are significant changes to how games are played out, I wouldn't expect anything like this in the future. If you want to get an idea of the best catchers in your game in terms of pitch framing and pitch calling, take a look at the catcher's ERA statistic. You may be able to identify some guys with consistently low numbers throughout their careers. |
01-13-2020, 02:29 AM | #10 |
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Catcher ERA is a bit unreliable because there's so many variables at play. Plus it's only earned runs, so errors won't count. Is a passed ball an error? Anyway.
Pitch framing (and I guess gamecalling) is in the game via Catcher Ability. This rating noticeably affects K and BB rates for pitchers. Would be nice if there was a corresponding stat for this so that the WAR boost could show up for the catchers instead of pitchers. |
01-13-2020, 09:42 AM | #11 | |
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01-13-2020, 09:57 AM | #12 |
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You couldn't do a stat for it but if you knew how much of a pitcher's war should go to the catcher on average as well as at each extreme, you could have an internal rating for it for each catcher that corresponds to the range you have established and then automatically subtract from the pitcher and add to the catcher whatever percentage of the war corresponds with his internal rating. It isn't something that would result from actual outcomes, it would just be inferred from the raw rating. Might be the best compromise available though.
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01-13-2020, 10:02 AM | #13 |
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01-13-2020, 10:33 AM | #14 |
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I don't know what this is referring to.
There are no pitch locations in the game. The ones shown in the one game view are only cosmetic. We can't have a stat that tracks something that's not in the game. |
01-13-2020, 10:37 AM | #15 | |
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I'm specifically talking about a pitch framing stat, which is what Argonaut asked for in the post I replied to. There's no way to quantify pitch framing in the game in a statistical sense when there are no pitch locations in the game. That's the point I'm trying to make. |
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01-13-2020, 10:56 AM | #16 |
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The difference between good pitch framers and bad pitch framers is falling as catchers are now being culled on their way up to MLB if they don't have this skill.
https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2018/9...-tyler-flowers
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01-13-2020, 11:03 AM | #17 | |
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01-13-2020, 11:29 AM | #18 | |
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I think unless the game engine undergoes a major change to include pitch locations that affect gameplay, we have to accept that pitch framing is part of the catcher rating. I don't have the math behind how much pitch framing affects a catcher's WAR, but I can't imagine it's skewing the number so significantly that we can't tell who the best defensive catchers are in OOTP. Plus, if the electronic strike zone comes into MLB -- and signs are pointing in that direction -- pitch framing will immediately become a zero factor. |
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01-13-2020, 12:00 PM | #19 |
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There doesn't have to be a pitch location thing in order to incorporate a stat. How does the game increase strikeouts and decrease walks for pitchers that are benefiting from a good defensive catcher? I assume it gives a small chance for each at-bat to result in a more positive outcome for the pitcher. Over time, this effect adds up into real value. I'm lobbying for that value to be tracked via some sort of stat. Call it whatever Bill James calls it if you like.
I know historical mode isn't the biggest focus for OOTPD. But even if pitch framing disappears via an electronic strike zone (there's still gamecalling then, but I digress)... framing will still be a factor for any historical game in OOTP. It affects things like the Hall of Fame, which I'm interested in. My Jim Sundberg in my dynasty doesn't have eye-popping WAR totals so I'm sure he won't get in, but what if he's really added a lot more value than the game thinks, because he is a defensive catcher? Last edited by Argonaut; 01-13-2020 at 12:02 PM. |
01-13-2020, 12:02 PM | #20 | |
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Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit |
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