OOTP vs. FM Revisited

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by MrMuse

The problem I'm having with OOTP is "not having a clue". The terms of baseball are more stylised and technical than those in football. Everyone knows what a pass is, everyone knows what a shot at goal is, 99% of people know what a penalty is (even if they don't understand why it was given). I have no idea what a change up is, no idea what a bunt is, no idea what a pinch is, no idea what 99% of these things mean. Until I make a conscious effort to educate myself on all these things OOTP is completely unplayable for me (whereas American Football management games are comparatively easy to understand). I think this is the key difference between the two games as computer games.

How Baseball Works (a guide to the game of Baseball)

HowStuffWorks "How Baseball Works"

Guide to the Different Types of Pitches in Baseball - Yahoo Voices - voices.yahoo.com

Baseball pitches illustrated by Lokesh Dhakar

[The Wolf]

If you read those four articles you will come away with a lot more than a clue.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by MrMuse

Grab a copy of FM2009, grab a copy of FM2014, play them both - you will see the engine show a couple of player animations more in the newer version. Does it really have any effect on your enjoyment of the game? Nope, not one bit. And that's FIVE years right there.

*edit* In fact, the only reason I bought OOTP is because I'm tired of paying for essentially the same game over and over. It's like paying £35/year for a patch.

Glad you bought OOTP, you'll enjoy it.

I completely disagree with you, both on the match engine and on other changes to FM in the last five years. I've played FM/CM every year since 1998 or so. I'm constantly amazed at how much better the game is each year. That's even in spite of the fact that I'm generally tough to impress myself. I've given up on most sports games for just the reasons you're describing, no real changes year to year and little overall improvement. In my opinion, FM (and OOTP too) is one of the pitifully few sports games that somehow manages to find a way to substantially improve every year, and not keep putting out £35 yearly patches.

You clearly have your own opinion on that, which is fine.

Still, it appears that your opinion is very much a fringe viewpoint and seems less than accurate while you're presenting it as an incontrovertible fact.

I'm going to be honest here, if FM's yearly change list doesn't impress you, OOTP's won't either. Nor will that of pretty much any other game that has a new version released more regularly than once every five years.

[The Wolf]

My experience is that FM comes across as a better game to me every version. I don't know if that opinion is mainstream or fringe, though.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Rizzo

Just gave this game my first night and must say I love it! Spent two and a half hours last night setting up my New England Revolution team and in that time only got to two friendlies. I haven't had a game where I can just tinker around with my team and not play many games like FM14 did to me last night.

Don't spend tooooo much time tinkering.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I don't know if that opinion is mainstream or fringe, though.

Fair enough. Maybe that comment is a little unfair/inaccurate on my part. After all, there may be a lot of people that feel that way. I guess that's not something I'd really know for sure either.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by MrMuse

Incidentally, Don't believe the posters saying "this years improvements seem more significant" or anything like that. FM2014 is FM2013 with a useless tactics editor and some minor tweeks added. There has been no REAL change to the game since FM 2009 other than that SI finally realised their long-term goal of implementing better player and press interaction with FM2013. Ignore the list of "new features", they are almost always just hyperbole...and the yearly "improved match engine" is a joke that doesn't alter the game one bit. This said, all sports management games suffer from this criticism because it is mostly true of all of them. With few exceptions (when an ACTUAL advancement is made in a specific year), these kinds of game tend to slowly degenerate into team updates as the devs run out of ideas that make a concrete difference to their games.

I just got into FM with FM 12 (skipped FM 13) and I can see the difference in the game ESPECIALLY in the match engine just by watching Let's play of FM 14 on youtube...FM 12 immediately became unplayable for me. Your expectations must be through the roof!

[The Wolf]

You should know from these forums that there are some people who just can't be pleased.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Fair enough. Maybe that comment is a little unfair/inaccurate on my part. After all, there may be a lot of people that feel that way. I guess that's not something I'd really know for sure either.

It's really hard to tell about things like that. They depend on who you are, who you communicate with and where you get your information.

Example: I have a Democrat friend who doesn't have any Republican friends, and who thinks they are all extremists. I have a Republican friend who doesn't have any Democrat friends, and who thinks they are all extremists. Yet Obama got - barely - 50% of the popular vote in 2012, which means that neither side is extreme and that both are mainstream. But neither she, who watches MSNBC and teaches school, nor he, who watches Fox and owns a business, will ever believe that.

In other words, those who disagree with you may not be fringe elements or extremists at all, no matter what you may think.

[MrMuse]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Fair enough. Maybe that comment is a little unfair/inaccurate on my part. After all, there may be a lot of people that feel that way. I guess that's not something I'd really know for sure either.

No because steam deleted the FM2014 thread on their forums because there were so many negative comments on the lack of progress that it was stopping people buying into the beta.

http://steamcommunity.com/app/207890...scn=1382308081

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by MrMuse

I'm not a real Football fan. I don't even support a team. But I've played FM since before it was even called FM and only skipped a couple of years where the latest version doesn't seem to be much of an improvement. Here in the UK football (soccer) is everywhere. League games play in most pubs/bars everywhere you go. If you talk to someone who plays computer games (not to be confused with console trash) who are watching a game in a pub the chances that they play, or have played, FM are high. Some play it because they are die-hard fans of a certain team they love to manage. Others, like myself, are more into FM than football itself. I'm pretty sure it's much the same with OOTP. (of course if you are a fan of the rl game you are more likely to want to play the sim). The problem I'm having with OOTP is "not having a clue". The terms of baseball are more stylised and technical than those in football. Everyone knows what a pass is, everyone knows what a shot at goal is, 99% of people know what a penalty is (even if they don't understand why it was given). I have no idea what a change up is, no idea what a bunt is, no idea what a pinch is, no idea what 99% of these things mean. Until I make a conscious effort to educate myself on all these things OOTP is completely unplayable for me (whereas American Football management games are comparatively easy to understand). I think this is the key difference between the two games as computer games.

I started learning football about 14 years ago....due to Championship Manager...there can be some tough things to learn...run on to...get stuck in... create overlap....these are some of the things you need to learn. Football is much more about flow, where as baseball is about hard stats. If you have any questions, I'd be glad to help you out.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

You should know from these forums that there are some people who just can't be pleased.

Hmmm....who could that be?

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

It's really hard to tell about things like that. They depend on who you are, who you communicate with and where you get your information.

Example: I have a Democrat friend who doesn't have any Republican friends, and who thinks they are all extremists. I have a Republican friend who doesn't have any Democrat friends, and who thinks they are all extremists. Yet Obama got - barely - 50% of the popular vote in 2012, which means that neither side is extreme and that both are mainstream. But neither she, who watches MSNBC and teaches school, nor he, who watches Fox and owns a business, will ever believe that.

In other words, those who disagree with you may not be fringe elements or extremists at all, no matter what you may think.

very well said.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by MrMuse

No because steam deleted the FM2014 thread on their forums because there were so many negative comments on the lack of progress that it was stopping people buying into the beta.

it is a beta right now, and will improve. SI has a very good reputation for fixing bugs. The "big" fix...usually always comes in February.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by MrMuse

No because steam deleted the FM2014 thread on their forums because there were so many negative comments on the lack of progress that it was stopping people buying into the beta.

No forum for fm2014? :: Football Manager 2013 General Discussions

I've read a number of FM14 threads on various neutral sports forums and most posters seem quite excited with the progress. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and at least a few others share it, but I would not be so sure that you are in any kind of a majority.

[The Wolf]

My father always used to say "If an ad or a flyer offends you, that means that you aren't in the target audience."

[MrMuse]

Of course there will always be debate on whether or not the changes in new yearly versions of these games have impact or are even improvements at all. That is not REALLY what my post was about. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. They are UPDATES, expansions at best, and should be priced accordingly. And I never claimed to be in any majority - I'm voicing an opinion - the same as everyone here. All I can say is:

"MrMuse 18 Oct @ 7:32pm
And, to be honest, with the games market the way it is currently - where you can get new titles at a quarter of the cost just a couple of months after release and good indie titles popping out at £2 - £12 I don't think there is a place for new games that cost £30-£40 even if they WERE actually full new games.
Last edited by MrMuse; 19 Oct @ 12:16pm" - and that one probably IS a minority comment.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by MrMuse

Of course there will always be debate on whether or not the changes in new yearly versions of these games have impact or are even improvements at all. That is not REALLY what my post was about. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. They are UPDATES, expansions at best, and should be priced accordingly.

Even if that's all they are, given the huge number of hours of fascinated entertainment I get from each version of FM (or each version of OOTP, for that matter), each year's upgrades are well worth it to me. I think of them like an annual subscription fee: I pay an annual fee, and the design team updates the game for me, fixes some bugs, and adds some new features, and then throws in a new roster set. Seems quite fair to me. What's my entertainment cost over a year here? Ten cents an hour?

[The Wolf]

I paid about thirty bucks for FM14 on my preorder. Divided by 52 weeks that's about sixty cents a week. I play about six hours a week of FM.

A dime an hour seems more than fair to me.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Even if that's all they are, given the huge number of hours of fascinated entertainment I get from each version of FM (or each version of OOTP, for that matter), each year's upgrades are well worth it to me. I think of them like an annual subscription fee: I pay an annual fee, and the design team updates the game for me, fixes some bugs, and adds some new features, and then throws in a new roster set. Seems quite fair to me. What's my entertainment cost over a year here? Ten cents an hour?

right...the hours of enjoyment are actually well worth the price of admission.