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Old 07-21-2013, 11:08 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSUColonel View Post
Another example...In this case, the profile page should (to me) read 2.5 overall, 2.5 potential. (as my scout says the ratings are as of 3/30/13) Why does it instead read 1.5 overall and 3.5 potential? Should this profile page rating not change until the next report is filed by my scout?
2.5 + 2.5 =5.0

3.5 + 1.5 = 5.0


Scouting is an imperfect science...problem solved.

Seems like we get this same thread once a month and basically it is because people want something that isn't perfect IRL to be perfect in a game that supposedly reflects real Life!
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Old 07-21-2013, 02:43 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Painmantle View Post
2.5 + 2.5 =5.0

3.5 + 1.5 = 5.0


Scouting is an imperfect science...problem solved.

Seems like we get this same thread once a month and basically it is because people want something that isn't perfect IRL to be perfect in a game that supposedly reflects real Life!
I can't speak for others... it's not that I'm expecting something to be *perfect*, but I am expecting it to be *consistent*. When the star ratings from the scouting reports tab and the star ratings from the profile tab are consistently 3.5 stars apart throughout the course of a season, and presumably both are coming from my scout, I don't know which one is providing a true representation of this reliever compared to other relievers in the league.

So I'm not complaining about anything - I'd just like for someone who knows the behind the scenes workings to explain this discrepancy to me so that I can understand it. If I understood what was behind it, I could make my own judgements/interpretations of the data.
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Old 07-21-2013, 06:31 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by hefalumps View Post

You pointed out in my example the date of my screenshot (October 29th), and then assumed it was a day FAs or arbitration happened. If you look at the screen again, it says right up top it was the first day of the offseason.
You are correct. I did not notice the indication of the off season beginning and I speculated that your day corresponded with FA/Arb hearings. I just completed a season and took note that there are a bunch of roster moves that the AI executes league wide on that first off season day. These transactions will affect the star rating basis. Just looking at this one day in my league, I don't see anything that would cause the ratings to skew in a particular direction every year as they would when talented FAs leave their teams, or when teams remove AAA talent from their rosters at the start of the season.

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And while your explanation of roster moves happening between the scouting report on the "Scouting Reports" tab and the "live" ratings on the "Profile" tab is certainly a feasible one, I don't think that's what I was seeing in my league. Sure, I only took the screenshot on one day, and maybe some players retired on October 29th that could have caused this discrepancy, but I was checking that player's ratings regularly throughout the year, and it was always the same thing - profile said 4 stars OVR and POT, scouting report said 1 star OVR and POT, even though the individual ratings on each report were identical.
You are saying that every time scouting was run during the season, the scouting report had the player as 1 star but the profile had him as 4 throughout the year?

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Originally Posted by hefalumps View Post
I understand the math that we think is being used in star calculations, and that it's completely dependent on the other players in the league being compared to the individual player, but none of that explains why throughout the course of a season this player consistently shows four stars on his profile but one star on his scouting reports. So which is it? How exactly does this player compare to the rest of the league? I can only assume that the two tabs are somehow using different player pools for comparison, but I don't know how to determine why they're different and which player base each tab would be using. Maybe the 4-star profile tab is comparing him against minor leaguers for some reason, but even so, his recent scouting reports at the AAA level were still only 1 or 1.5 stars.
This is an introduction of a new condition into the discussion, AFAIK.

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Maybe it's not a bug. Maybe it's a league corruption or some combination of settings causing weirdness, which is why not everyone sees it. I'd be happy to submit my league files to Markus but this was an old dynasty league I was playing in OOTP13 and have been playing since OOTP9, and I haven't imported into 14 yet. I also haven't seen the issue in my test 14 league (waiting for the last patch before I start my new dynasty), so I have nothing to submit.
My thoughts and posts here were all working from a v13 and v14 reference. There may be something happening with your league having been generated in v9, but I have no idea if that is the case. It is certainly an added unknown to the equation.

For some reason, in my HOF, OOTP has Dan Brouthers and Mike Donlin listed as pitchers, even though they never pitched to a single batter in their careers. I change their positions to reflect where they actually played, and OOTP changes them back to pitchers. I do not know why it does this, nor am I really interested in finding out. It is a meaningless issue, as far as I am concerned, but obviously something is not working as it should, there. I do not have the working knowledge of the software to know where to dig for the cause, even if I did care to know what was causing that to happen.

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But I still think there's something going on here worth looking into. When I import my OOTP13 dynasty into 14, if I'm still seeing a lot of this going on, I'll upload my league files to Markus and try opening a ticket to see if he can provide some kind of explanation.
That your player EVERY time he is scouted displays 1 star in the report and 4 stars in his profile does indeed seem as an unintended output. The chances of the pool shifting so much each time and to the exact same degree every day scouting is run are too miniscule to even consider calculating.

What PSU has presented I see as proper functioning of the star rating mechanism, and not a bug.

What you have described here, if I understand you correctly, indicates something is not functioning properly in your game. I do not see this in my games, but I really haven't been paying that close attention. I will be keeping an eye out for it though.

For whatever it is worth, my first guess is that there is perhaps some sort of corruption that has taken place somewhere along the way with your league, whether starting it in v9 has anything to do with it would be purely speculative, on my part.

If I see the same behavior in my league which I created in v14, I will certainly share that.

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:37 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla View Post
You are saying that every time scouting was run during the season, the scouting report had the player as 1 star but the profile had him as 4 throughout the year?

This is an introduction of a new condition into the discussion, AFAIK.

That your player EVERY time he is scouted displays 1 star in the report and 4 stars in his profile does indeed seem as an unintended output. The chances of the pool shifting so much each time and to the exact same degree every day scouting is run are too miniscule to even consider calculating.
Yep, that is what I was experiencing - every month my scout would update his report and it would be one star compared to four stars still in the profile.

I'm more than willing to accept the theory that something happened to my league between the multiple imports from 9 to 13. But I think I remembered asking PSU whether his league was an import and it wasn't. Of course, as you pointed out, what PSU is seeing may not be the same as I am seeing.

PSU, can you clarify - are you consistently noticing the rating discrepancy throughout the course of a season - e.g. multiple monthly scouting reports consistently disagreeing with the star ratings on the profile?

Anyway, I originally started this thread (before 14 was even released) after reading PSU's thread in the 13 forum, and after realizing I wasn't the only one experiencing this phenomenon, I wanted to see if it had been investigated and possibly fixed in 14. I can't say I've noticed it yet in 14 with my one test league, so maybe an adjustment was made, or maybe my 13 dynasty got corrupted along the way - hard to say. I would still love it if Markus came on here and gave us some in depth insight into how he's coming up with those OVR/POT numbers.
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Old 07-22-2013, 12:14 AM   #45
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Right. I agree with and understand all that. But it does seem to be an issue that at a singular point in time OOTP will have two different overall star ratings for the same player. That's the complaint I'm seeing from PSUColonel and others. Am I wrong on that?
This is not correct. As I explained in the thread linked earlier in this thread, the scouting happens. Then the report is sent out. Then the AI teams make their roster moves based on the scouting information. Then you see your scouting report that arrived at the same time every other team's scouting report arrived. By the time you look at your player profile that same day it is a different point in time from when the scouting report was "printed".

The star ratings on the scout report are from a singular moment in time at 12:01 am. At that moment the star ratings on the scout report and profile are identical. At 12:02 am the composition of the league player population may have changed, and the change may have been impactful on the star ratings for certain players at certain positions that are represented by the star ratings in the player profile.

That was a long way to say: same day does not equal singular moment in time

The scouting report that was put together at 12:01 am gave star ratings for that singular moment in time. At 12:02 am, those ratings may not be the same.





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Originally Posted by lukasberger View Post
I think it's a different issue from the overall value and usage of the start ratings, which is what you're describing (and describing very well at that). The two things are likely tied together, as it's changes to the player pool that causes OOTP to create the non matching ratings, but they're actually separate things. Or am I misunderstanding this issue?
The skill ratings and star ratings are two separate things.

Changes to the player pool do not affect skill ratings.

Changes to the player pool do affect star ratings.

And again, I will close by saying, "This is not a bug."

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Old 07-22-2013, 12:40 AM   #46
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Yep, that is what I was experiencing - every month my scout would update his report and it would be one star compared to four stars still in the profile.

I'm more than willing to accept the theory that something happened to my league between the multiple imports from 9 to 13. But I think I remembered asking PSU whether his league was an import and it wasn't. Of course, as you pointed out, what PSU is seeing may not be the same as I am seeing.

PSU, can you clarify - are you consistently noticing the rating discrepancy throughout the course of a season - e.g. multiple monthly scouting reports consistently disagreeing with the star ratings on the profile?

Anyway, I originally started this thread (before 14 was even released) after reading PSU's thread in the 13 forum, and after realizing I wasn't the only one experiencing this phenomenon, I wanted to see if it had been investigated and possibly fixed in 14. I can't say I've noticed it yet in 14 with my one test league, so maybe an adjustment was made, or maybe my 13 dynasty got corrupted along the way - hard to say. I would still love it if Markus came on here and gave us some in depth insight into how he's coming up with those OVR/POT numbers.
I am seeing the discrepancies throughout the course of any given season, and you are correct, I did not import a league.
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Old 07-22-2013, 12:44 AM   #47
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Yep, that is what I was experiencing - every month my scout would update his report and it would be one star compared to four stars still in the profile.

I'm more than willing to accept the theory that something happened to my league between the multiple imports from 9 to 13. But I think I remembered asking PSU whether his league was an import and it wasn't. Of course, as you pointed out, what PSU is seeing may not be the same as I am seeing.

PSU, can you clarify - are you consistently noticing the rating discrepancy throughout the course of a season - e.g. multiple monthly scouting reports consistently disagreeing with the star ratings on the profile?

Anyway, I originally started this thread (before 14 was even released) after reading PSU's thread in the 13 forum, and after realizing I wasn't the only one experiencing this phenomenon, I wanted to see if it had been investigated and possibly fixed in 14. I can't say I've noticed it yet in 14 with my one test league, so maybe an adjustment was made, or maybe my 13 dynasty got corrupted along the way - hard to say. I would still love it if Markus came on here and gave us some in depth insight into how he's coming up with those OVR/POT numbers.
Do you recall if all of your MRs were having this discrepancy?

What you describe does not make sense. I really think something was corrupted, and if it was only with this one MR you saw the 1 to 4 star jump, then I would guess that the corruption was in that one player file.

If ALL of your MR saw similar discrepancies (and the MR from all other teams) saw the same thing, then you probably would have seen this same thing with all MRs on all teams, which would indicate that it wasn't a corruption of that one player file, but a corruption or, perhaps, a compatability issue that came forth from the older versions and would have very likely caused this discrepancy for all players at all positions.*

You did not mention that this was the case, and if it was the case I am certain you would have noticed it and made mention of it, here.

In any case, what you described is something I have never seen in v 13 or v14. What PSU describes I see all of the time....because that is what we are supposed to see.

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Old 07-22-2013, 01:24 AM   #48
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It wasn't with every MR in that league, but with a large number of them.

In one of the threads VG linked, I posted about another reliever in my league (permalinked here). Felix Hernandez had been a stud starter, suffered a 12-14 month injury, and when he came back he was no longer being rated well as a starter (half star), and his suggested role was now bullpen rather than starter.

When you changed his position from SP to MR, the star ratings on his profile page changed from a half star to 4.5 stars (74/80). But on his scouting report from the same day? (20/80).

So this gave me another thought - is it possible that when the scouting report was made, maybe the AI still had him set as an SP? That would explain this scenario, but it would be an unlikely explanation for my original scenario, unless the AI just decided to switch DePaula from MR to SP and back to MR every month each time the scouting report was generated.

But maybe something along those lines could be happening with the MRs in my league - on each tab they're being compared to different groups of pitchers in different roles. Maybe one compared the guy with all MRs in the league while the other compared him with all MRs in professional baseball including minors. Maybe one ignored the free agent MRs while the other one didn't. Maybe one compared to all pitchers with a *suggested* role of MR/bullpen while the other compared only to explicitly designated MRs. Or maybe my player pool just got "polluted" over the years and multiple imports. I don't know - I'm just throwing darts here.

Markus - please shed a little light on how these OVR/POT numbers come to be! Do they both use the exact same code when deciding which players they compare against? I'm especially curious about how it's handled with pitchers and roles. I know people have observed this phenomenon with position players as well, but I'm not sure any of them have been as drastic as they were with pitchers.

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Old 07-22-2013, 02:12 AM   #49
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Felix Hernandez had been a stud starter, suffered a 12-14 month injury, and when he came back he was no longer being rated well as a starter (half star), and his suggested role was now bullpen rather than starter.

When you changed his position from SP to MR, the star ratings on his profile page changed from a half star to 4.5 stars (74/80). But on his scouting report from the same day? (20/80).
Yes, the scouting report was submitted with Felix as a SP. Think of it as being received in writing and it is viewed as a PDF for the rest of time as submitted, star ratings included (here your 80 scale ratings included).

When you changed him to a MR it no longer mattered that his stamina sucked or that he didn't have a third servicable pitch anymore. You stuck the info into your office computer across the street from the ball park and had your Excel application plot his abilities vs other MRs instead of SPs, and he became a 74 instead of a 20 on your screen, but the written scouting report, now presented to you through the team network via PDF, still shows him as 20 and will show him as 20 forever because he was a 20 when compared to other SPs when that report was submitted by your scouting staff as a SP.

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So this gave me another thought - is it possible that when the scouting report was made, maybe the AI still had him set as an SP? That would explain this scenario, but it would be an unlikely explanation for my original scenario, unless the AI just decided to switch DePaula from MR to SP and back to MR every month each time the scouting report was generated.
A-ha! I think this is it!

I posted about Dan Brouthers and Mike Donlin returning to the pitchers wing of the HOF listing even though I change them back to their actual positions and having no idea why this happens. It shouldn't happen, but it's no big deal. Something somewhere is making them SPs in their position box.

If this same thing is happening to De Paula then the output makes perfect sense! It is still incorrect as far as what we want the scouting report to show, but yes, it makes sense as to why his star ratings were so radically different (and improved) to the same degree every single time.

Something got corrupted in your DePaula file similar to whatever got corrupted in my Donlin and Brouthers file. Whatever it is, it is only affecting the scouting report's read of his position, which is a very good thing.

This is a great point you brought up here, unintentionally, and I only see it now, myself.

That is:

It is an absolutely great thing that the profile page star ratings are NOT locked into the last scouting report.

Since they are not, we can change the position of any player and get an immediate reading of how that player compares to others at that, or any, position...not just SP vs MR but SS to 1B to LF to C to any position.

How much would it absolutely suck if you had no idea (other than going through every team's roster) that Felix or DePaula would be better in your BP than as a SP?????

Oh, that would suck.

This is NOT a bug.

CLOSE THE TICKET.

And a big fest to all.

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Old 07-22-2013, 11:02 AM   #50
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FWIW, the short and sweet verdict. I sent the following snipped comments, as I noted, with my comments:

Quote:
Originally Posted by VG

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

I haven't gone back to look at ALL of the same day discrepancies pictured in all of the threads, but there is a commonality amongst them.

The players who are posted that gain stars (more than a half) are from the end of the season. This is when players become free agents and leave the pool of rostered players which elevates the star ratings of the remaining players as I illustrated with Ludwick.

The players posted who lose stars (more than a half) are coming at the start of the season as the Spring Training rosters are no more and the active rosters across the board go to 25. The 1/2 star AAA types are no longer bringing down the average and distribution of the talent and the remaining payers who were average in comparison to all players active for ST are now below average, which is the math of the star model.

I understand programming and design and order of operations in software. There are bugs that pop up in game play that are clear order of operation snafus (scoring play bugs come to mind).

I see the same day star discrepancy "bug" as not a bug at all, but a reflection of the order of operations being absolutely correct for the purpose of giving accurate relative strength of players to the user when it is the user's turn to interact with the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus' response:
Yes, VG hits the nail on the head. The scouting reports screen has the rating as a snapshot, and the profile screen is dynamic, hence the discrepancies.
Apparently your banana barf is more akin to roasted teriyaki chicken with a side of brown rice. Good work. Thanks for the exchanges. Obviously, Markus has said this in much the same way in the past, but only after the discussion in this thread do I think it's been articulated in a manner that's easier for all of us to grasp. Is it over? Probably not, but this was a good stride.
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Old 07-22-2013, 11:13 AM   #51
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I guess I wondering why there is/should be dynamic reports?? Doesn't this sort of negate the importance Of the ones in the scouting?
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Old 07-22-2013, 11:19 AM   #52
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I guess I wondering why there is/should be dynamic reports?? Doesn't this sort of negate the importance Of the ones in the scouting?
Really not at all and as a tool that depends on what you factor in your decision making. The scout says X as a stand alone snapshot of the player and the profile gauges his impact and relevance in comparison to the larger and current environment. You could make a case for either dependent on your own philosophy.
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Old 07-22-2013, 11:24 AM   #53
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Apparently your banana barf is more akin to roasted teriyaki chicken with a side of brown rice. Good work. Thanks for the exchanges. Obviously, Markus has said this in much the same way in the past, but only after the discussion in this thread do I think it's been articulated in a manner that's easier for all of us to grasp. Is it over? Probably not, but this was a good stride.
Thanks endgame and VG for your input and assistance trying to clear up this mystery!

Endgame, if you still have Markus's ear, I'd love it if you could get his take on my specific situation with the MR who has one star in his scouting report every month but four stars on the Profile tab. VG and I are sort of theorizing it might be because the scouting report is comparing him using a SP role and the profile tab is using a MR role, but it would be fantastic if he could confirm whether or not that might even be possible. And if it is, what might make it happen? The pitcher in question had 3/20 stamina and a suggested role of "Strictly Bullpen", so what might make the scouting report judge him as an SP instead of an MR?

Any details he could provide on how OOTP handles star ratings/comparisons for pitchers and how it takes their suggested roles and actual assigned roles into account would be *awesome*. Thanks!
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Old 07-22-2013, 11:36 AM   #54
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Ok...thanks guys for all of your input. While I don't 100 percent agree with the system, at least I feel I have a much better understanding of it
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Old 07-22-2013, 12:19 PM   #55
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Thanks endgame and VG for your input and assistance trying to clear up this mystery!

Endgame, if you still have Markus's ear, I'd love it if you could get his take on my specific situation
I hardly have his ear. I slip notes under the door and hope for the best. Let you know, though.
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:15 AM   #56
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Just FYI (FEI?), this is now fixed in the latest patch. Woohoooooo!

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Old 08-05-2013, 11:29 AM   #57
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Really? What happens now?
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:48 AM   #58
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Really? What happens now?
I don't know the details, but Markus told me there was a bug in the rating shown on the player profile page. As far as I know, the ones shown on the Scouting Reports page have always been correct.

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Old 08-05-2013, 01:08 PM   #59
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Really? What happens now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Shafer View Post
I don't know the details, but Markus told me there was a bug in the rating shown on the player profile page. As far as I know, the ones shown on the Scouting Reports page have always been correct.

- Jon
Couple quick notes. First, welcome Jon! Honored to have you around. On the profile note, before we get all carried away re-examining the issue to evaluate results, please note this: This does apply to scouting reports filed in the future, not ones filed earlier. (paraphrased slightly)

FWIW
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Old 08-05-2013, 04:46 PM   #60
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What exactly was adjusted?
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