Home | Webstore
Latest News: OOTP Update 20.8 - OOTP 20 Available - FHM 6 Available

Offseason Discount! SAVE 50%!

  

Go Back   OOTP Developments Forums > Out of the Park Developments > Talk Sports

Talk Sports Discuss everything that is sports-related, like MLB, NFL, NHL, NBA, MLS, NASCAR, NCAA sports and teams, trades, coaches, bad calls etc.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-11-2019, 04:16 PM   #41
monkeyman576
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,174
Thanks: 6
Thanked 81x in 70 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipaway View Post
And you determine what's high end by your culture prejudice? You mean you are a racist?
By the restaurants standards.
monkeyman576 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2019, 04:33 PM   #42
CBeisbol
Major Leagues
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 313
Thanks: 165
Thanked 135x in 86 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyman576 View Post
The person is what's racist, not what they say.
I don't agree and it's a critical distinction to make.

Skipaway is doing a good job explaining it.

Look at our language. We have a lot of words and phrases in our vernacular which were commonly used 10, 20, 30, 50, etc years ago that will get you in big trouble now. That doesn't mean that everyone who used them was a racist. Nor is someone a racist who grew up using those terms who says them now without thinking about what they actually mean.


Quote:
I see plenty of people of lots of different races(including white) wear pants at different levels so it's not racist to be against it in my opinion.
Did our earlier conversation not exist?

Of course it can be racist to "be against" wearing one's pants at different levels.

"No son of mine is going to wear his pants like a ...." Is pretty obviously racist.

So, I'll ask you again, to answer my previous queston
CBeisbol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2019, 04:37 PM   #43
thehef
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,749
Thanks: 824
Thanked 490x in 315 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipaway View Post
Racism isn't determined by motivation. The fact that I call it "racism by ignorance" already means it's not intentional and the motivation isn't to discriminate.

I am specifically stating that people can have racist acts unintentionally. This happens all the time, and the reason we need to point it out is because racism hurts regardless of motivation. There is no cheapening of the hurt by saying that. On the other hand, if we require proof of motivation to label something racism, you are effectively telling racists to stay racist as long as they pretend they aren't doing anything intentionally. You are basically tolerating harmful behaviors.
Generally speaking, I'd say we disagree on some of the particulars, but can find plenty of common ground. Perhaps except for here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipaway View Post
We punish unintentional harm much less severely comparing to intentional harm, but we punish that still.
IMO, the problems are 1) that we look to punish - rather than explain, coach, guide - in response to the unintentional acts that could be perceived as racism, and 2) we ascribe harm to situation where there is actually just minor (and often fake) offense taken.
thehef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2019, 04:41 PM   #44
thehef
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,749
Thanks: 824
Thanked 490x in 315 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBeisbol View Post
Look at our language. We have a lot of words and phrases in our vernacular which were commonly used 10, 20, 30, 50, etc years ago that will get you in big trouble now. That doesn't mean that everyone who used them was a racist. Nor is someone a racist who grew up using those terms who says them now without thinking about what they actually mean.
Completely agree that this is how it ought to be. But in today's society, we are seeing people get crucified for saying, doing, and thinking things decades ago that were not thought to be racist or sexist or homophobic (or maybe no big deal) at the time, but are by today's ever-changing standards.
thehef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2019, 04:48 PM   #45
monkeyman576
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,174
Thanks: 6
Thanked 81x in 70 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBeisbol View Post
I don't agree and it's a critical distinction to make.

Skipaway is doing a good job explaining it.

Look at our language. We have a lot of words and phrases in our vernacular which were commonly used 10, 20, 30, 50, etc years ago that will get you in big trouble now. That doesn't mean that everyone who used them was a racist. Nor is someone a racist who grew up using those terms who says them now without thinking about what they actually mean.



Did our earlier conversation not exist?

Of course it can be racist to "be against" wearing one's pants at different levels.

"No son of mine is going to wear his pants like a ...." Is pretty obviously racist.

So, I'll ask you again, to answer my previous queston
Using the N word or saying "like a _____" is racist.
monkeyman576 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2019, 04:49 PM   #46
CBeisbol
Major Leagues
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 313
Thanks: 165
Thanked 135x in 86 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehef View Post
I know of a vegan or two who thinks it's disgusting for us to eat meat. Are they racist?
I know of a bunch of white people who think it's disgusting, not to mention immoral, to eat dog. Are they racist?

How about if they think that people associated with certain cultures that eat dog are immoral?

Quote:
Of course, if a person is telling only Mexicans that eating tacos is disgusting, then that's a different story.
What if that person tells an [I]American [/] that eating tacos is disgusting? And they say that because they think Mexicans eat tacos and Mexicans are disgusting.

That seems more like what might be going on here.
"It's wrong for anyone to..., because that's what [undesirable] people do"

Quote:
(You may infer that the letter-writer is targeting blacks for his criticism of tats, dreads, and endzone dances, but we don't know that; he may also be speaking/writing to anyone on the Nittany Lions who fits those descriptions.)
Would you like to reconsider this in light of the previous?

It's similar to using sex, disabilities, etc as a pejorative.

X's are bad, and you're bad too because you are like them.



Quote:
I'll just re-state that in the case of the letter-writer, he may very well be racist. I'm just saying that a) we don't know enough about him from this particular letter to conclude that he's racist; his feelings on tats & dreads and endzone displays may come from something else that is neither racist nor ignorant, and b) the quick judgement of some to pronounce him a racist is indicative of current culture - reflected in this thread - that is way to quick, perhaps eager, to pronounce racism as the motive for... whatever; and, sadly, that phenomenon cheapens actual racist actions that actually effect/harm people.
Agreed, generally
CBeisbol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2019, 04:52 PM   #47
CBeisbol
Major Leagues
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 313
Thanks: 165
Thanked 135x in 86 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehef View Post
IMO, the problems are 1) that we look to punish - rather than explain, coach, guide - in response to the unintentional acts that could be perceived as racism, and 2) we ascribe harm to situation where there is actually just minor (and often fake) offense taken.
Again, generally, agreed.

I was going to say something earlier about the punishment aspect. No, we shouldn't *punish* someone for, say, using a phrase that they learned as a kid and grew up using and no one ever thought twice about it.

But, now, we should think about it
CBeisbol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2019, 04:54 PM   #48
CBeisbol
Major Leagues
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 313
Thanks: 165
Thanked 135x in 86 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyman576 View Post
Using the N word or saying "like a _____" is racist.
Yes

But the person who says it isn't, necessarily, a racist.

But the words are
CBeisbol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2019, 04:57 PM   #49
monkeyman576
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,174
Thanks: 6
Thanked 81x in 70 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBeisbol View Post
Yes

But the person who says it isn't, necessarily, a racist.

But the words are
I would say that the words are inherently racist, unless it's said in a different context, like "using the N word is bad."
monkeyman576 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2019, 05:17 PM   #50
CBeisbol
Major Leagues
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 313
Thanks: 165
Thanked 135x in 86 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyman576 View Post
I would say that the words are inherently racist, unless it's said in a different context, like "using the N word is bad."
The words, and the ideas they represent, yes

The people who say them, maybe
CBeisbol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2019, 06:09 PM   #51
cephasjames
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,406
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 3,795
Thanked 3,228x in 1,508 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich View Post
I can't tell him it's not racist because....well it is!

And thankfully that 'older' generation of graduates (and older people in general who think this way) is dying out.
Rude? Yes. Racist? No. If only black people wore dreadlocks, and if only black people had tattoos, and if only black people celebrated in the endzone, then it would be racist. But since that's not the case, it's simply rude.

Now, is it okay for the athlete to (personally) respond to the guy and say his comments felt racist? Yes, as long as the athlete is willing to let the guy respond to his comments and start a dialogue.
cephasjames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2019, 06:27 PM   #52
Skipaway
Hall Of Famer
 
Skipaway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Where you live
Posts: 10,993
Thanks: 2
Thanked 121x in 98 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyman576 View Post
By the restaurants standards.
Restaurants can have standard on what kind of dress code they prefer, but it's not the same as defining what's high class. If I open a restaurant that ask all customers to wear bandana, it wouldn't mean I am defining bandana as high class.
__________________
Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.
Skipaway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2019, 06:35 PM   #53
Skipaway
Hall Of Famer
 
Skipaway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Where you live
Posts: 10,993
Thanks: 2
Thanked 121x in 98 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehef View Post
IMO, the problems are 1) that we look to punish - rather than explain, coach, guide - in response to the unintentional acts that could be perceived as racism, and 2) we ascribe harm to situation where there is actually just minor (and often fake) offense taken.
I use punishment just as an example. It doesn't mean punishment is required. Even for people with bad motivations, we don't always rely on punishment either. The key point is about we shouldn't focus on motivations. We should focus on outcomes.


The issue people getting offended easy is a cultural phenomenon that's not really related to racism. People who get offended the easiest in the American society are not those being discriminated, but entitled people who are already at a position with advantage. Minorities typically take offensive things much better, because they got slighted all the time and they can't be outraged with everything or they wouldn't be able to live their lives. On the other hand, examples like Bret Stephens shows how people who are privileged are the ones that can't take anything.
__________________
Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.
Skipaway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2019, 07:35 PM   #54
thehef
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,749
Thanks: 824
Thanked 490x in 315 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBeisbol View Post
I know of a bunch of white people who think it's disgusting, not to mention immoral, to eat dog. Are they racist?

How about if they think that people associated with certain cultures that eat dog are immoral?


What if that person tells an [I]American [/] that eating tacos is disgusting? And they say that because they think Mexicans eat tacos and Mexicans are disgusting.

That seems more like what might be going on here.
"It's wrong for anyone to..., because that's what [undesirable] people do"


Would you like to reconsider this in light of the previous?
You've added a considerable amount of context/additional detail to those examples that might indicate racist motives. (Although even with the add'l info, the "eat dog" example is not cut-and-dry racism. There may be other factors in play.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBeisbol View Post
Would you like to reconsider this in light of the previous?
No, not at all as it relates to the letter-writer. The additional context is - to my knowledge - not present. Therefore, it's just inference.
thehef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2019, 07:41 PM   #55
monkeyman576
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,174
Thanks: 6
Thanked 81x in 70 posts
I think to summarize while the letter is pretty much universally agreed upon to be in bad taste it's not racist by definition.
monkeyman576 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2019, 08:16 PM   #56
CBeisbol
Major Leagues
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 313
Thanks: 165
Thanked 135x in 86 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehef View Post
You've added a considerable amount of context/additional detail to those examples that might indicate racist motives. (Although even with the add'l info, the "eat dog" example is not cut-and-dry racism. There may be other factors in play.)



No, not at all as it relates to the letter-writer. The additional context is - to my knowledge - not present. Therefore, it's just inference.
You're totally missing the point
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehef View Post
Of course, if a person is telling only Mexicans that eating tacos is disgusting, then that's a different story. (You may infer that the letter-writer is targeting blacks for his criticism of tats, dreads, and endzone dances, but we don't know that; he may also be speaking/writing to anyone on the Nittany Lions who fits those descriptions.)
He doesn't have to just target blacks or Mexicans for it to be racist.

Telling a white person to not eat tacos or have dreads [because those are disgusting things for *other* people] is racist

I have no idea if that's his reasoning. But that he might target anyone on the team *in no way* means the statements can't be based on racist beliefs.
CBeisbol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2019, 09:31 PM   #57
thehef
All Star Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,749
Thanks: 824
Thanked 490x in 315 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBeisbol View Post
You're totally missing the point
Perhaps

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBeisbol View Post
He doesn't have to just target blacks or Mexicans for it to be racist.

Telling a white person to not eat tacos or have dreads [because those are disgusting things for *other* people] is racist

I have no idea if that's his reasoning. But that he might target anyone on the team *in no way* means the statements can't be based on racist beliefs.
Agreed, with emphasis on your last two sentences. My point was simply that we don't know enough about his motives to say that he's either racist or isn't racist. So we shouldn't then infer that he's racist.
thehef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2019, 11:51 PM   #58
pilight
Major Leagues
 
pilight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Where the Action is
Posts: 467
Thanks: 13
Thanked 175x in 130 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipaway View Post
It may not be intentionally racist, but it's racist by ignorance.
All racists are racist by ignorance
pilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:15 PM.

 

Major League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with permission of MLB Advanced Media, L.P. Minor League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with the permission of Minor League Baseball. All rights reserved.

The Major League Baseball Players Association (www.MLBPLAYERS.com ) is the collective bargaining representative for all professional baseball players of the thirty Major League Baseball teams and serves as the exclusive group licensing agent for commercial and licensing activities involving active Major League baseball players. On behalf of its members, it operates the Players Choice licensing program and the Players Choice Awards, which benefit the needy through the Major League Baseball Players Trust, a charitable foundation established and run entirely by Major League baseball players. Follow: @MLB_Players; @MLBPAClubhouse; @MLBPlayersTrust

Out of the Park Baseball is a registered trademark of Out of the Park Developments GmbH & Co. KG

Google Play is a trademark of Google Inc.

Apple, iPhone, iPod touch and iPad are trademarks of Apple Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries.

COPYRIGHT © 2017 OUT OF THE PARK DEVELOPMENTS. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

 

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright © 2018 Out of the Park Developments