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Old 02-19-2020, 01:05 AM   #61
Morgans Magic
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My sources are/were contemporary accounts by fellow players, newspaper reporters and so on. Iīm not just talking The Glory of Their Times kind of stuff, but things that were written at the time the players were in their prime. The Sporting News for example was a great place to read what people in the know really thought about players, and reporters like Fred Lieb and Ring Lardner were a joy to read.

In the 1980s I was working on my PhD in History and my thesis was that the 1914 World Series was thrown (I still believe it, btw). I spent many hours going through many sports pages on microfiche and wasted a good deal of time reading stuff that wasnīt related to my particular project at all. The time may have been wasted but it was well-spent nonetheless.

With fielding, the problem is simply that the conditions then were so utterly different that it makes it difficult to rate guys who played prior to World War Two. Regarding stl jasonīs excellent post above comparing Speaker and Trout, the glove Speaker used would fit inside Troutīs with room to spare, while Speakerīs excellent range would bring him chances that a mere mortal would never have had, and of course with the inherent chances of making an error, which of course was more common with the gloves in use at the time. Therefore fielding percentage is useless when trying to rate old time players.

And we wonīt even go into the condition of the balls in use up to the 1920s, which definitely made things interesting for all concerned. And then thereīs trying to rate the Negro Leaguers...

Iīm really curious how ootp would rate Hal Chase. During his career he was noted as perhaps the best fielding first baseman up to that time, the GOAT if you will. Unfortunately Mr Chase supplemented his income by throwing games, so along with the usual problem of gloves and ball condition, he also made a ton of errors on purpose. But the only thing we have to go by nowadays is the fielding record, which would make him something under 50 Iīm sure, while closer to the mark, based on contemporary opinions, would be over 100.

I donīt pretend to set myself up as the end-all authority on this stuff, but it is something I grew up with, quite literally as Dizzy Dean was my cousin (and Paul as well, of course ), and I have studied this era extensively. And while weīre at it, another first baseman who gets the shaft is Mickey Vernon.



so you don't think Amos Strunk lost that ball in the sun.... ??
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Old 02-19-2020, 03:52 AM   #62
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In the 1980s I was working on my PhD in History and my thesis was that the 1914 World Series was thrown (I still believe it, btw). I spent many hours going through many sports pages on microfiche and wasted a good deal of time reading stuff that wasnīt related to my particular project at all. The time may have been wasted but it was well-spent nonetheless.

Did you go in for a second PhonyDoctor in Statistics? Certainly seems like they'd both be pretty relevant, and almost unavoidably intertwined with any evidence hunt for historical shenanigans.


Just curious, I'd find that analysis fascinating.
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Old 02-19-2020, 01:40 PM   #63
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so you don't think Amos Strunk lost that ball in the sun.... ??
Thatīs only one of several questionable plays in that game and others throughout the series. The problem is trying to read a manīs mind, and that at a time far removed from the present. However, along with Strunk, Schangīs play was quite suspect as well as Bush and so on. I really love this team though, including the guys I think werenīt playing on the up and up.
Itīs important to remember that a lot of guys back then were thought to have thrown games here and there and so the culture was certainly in place. It was so much a part of the game that even after 1919 it still didnīt go away completely. Fred Lieb wrote some interesting things about Carl Mays and Joe Bush supposedly throwing games in the 1920s.
Havenīt thought about this stuff in years, makes me want to do all the research again.
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Old 02-20-2020, 03:07 AM   #64
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I was happy to learn about it. Did my own research and read about an alleged doubleheader that was thrown and repaid with a thrown three-game series.


It's a bit shocking to my modern sensibilities....


So I was super psyched to read about it.
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Old 02-21-2020, 02:15 PM   #65
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It's a bit shocking to my modern sensibilities....


So I was super psyched to read about it.
The problem is that back then no ballplayers were millionaires and all but the biggest stars had to work normal jobs in the winter. Add that with some rather greedy and frugal owners, such as Mack and Comiskey (strangely enough, former players themselves) and you have the perfect climate for making a little money on the side.

I think it would be fun to make a "fishy business" team if there were enough cards to fill it. You could have the Black Sox of course, and Heinie Zimmerman, who already has a card, Hal Chase at first, Carl Mays, Joe Bush, even John McGraw himself was rumored to be a bit shady. You could add in Eddie Collins, whom everyone thinks played it straight but nonetheless was on both the ī14 Aīs and ī19 White Sox. Thatīs some good players there!
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Old 02-21-2020, 03:39 PM   #66
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I think it would be fun to make a "fishy business" team if there were enough cards to fill it. You could have the Black Sox of course, and Heinie Zimmerman, who already has a card, Hal Chase at first, Carl Mays, Joe Bush, even John McGraw himself was rumored to be a bit shady. You could add in Eddie Collins, whom everyone thinks played it straight but nonetheless was on both the ī14 Aīs and ī19 White Sox. Thatīs some good players there!
Wouldn't be the worst collection either!
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Old 02-21-2020, 10:06 PM   #67
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The problem is that back then no ballplayers were millionaires and all but the biggest stars had to work normal jobs in the winter. Add that with some rather greedy and frugal owners, such as Mack and Comiskey (strangely enough, former players themselves) and you have the perfect climate for making a little money on the side.

I think it would be fun to make a "fishy business" team if there were enough cards to fill it. You could have the Black Sox of course, and Heinie Zimmerman, who already has a card, Hal Chase at first, Carl Mays, Joe Bush, even John McGraw himself was rumored to be a bit shady. You could add in Eddie Collins, whom everyone thinks played it straight but nonetheless was on both the ī14 Aīs and ī19 White Sox. Thatīs some good players there!

My buddy and I started a 1901 historical OOTP last year and we're still going in 1942. We started GM'ing the Phillies to start the game and at one point had Hal Chase then Chick Gandi As we were swilling some beer I mentioned "I wonder how many games we've lost with those two clowns on the team.
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