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Old 05-25-2019, 02:56 PM   #41
Orcin
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There is a fellow who is using (and talking about it on the forum) an all unsung iron hero team and claiming it is OK because it is a theme team. If they don't come out against that, then are they really serious about their TOS?
That should be investigated and the action taken should be based on the results of the investigation. They aren't telling us about enforcement actions anyway, so we don't know that they didn't take some action. It is a pretty common policy among game companies to not publicize their enforcement actions. Blizzard is a rare exception.
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Old 05-25-2019, 04:01 PM   #42
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To win 120+ games in the first week of play means cash was invested and if someone invests cash I just can't imagine why the developers would ban a guy for that and forego future revenue from this person.
From a business perspective, you don't want to screw your future income but you also don't want to have the reputation that you are very biased toward paying customer. To be fair, devs are going to be leaning, no matter how slightly, to the P2P guys in a F2P game because they pay. However, if the dev is considered to be too biased and obviously favoring paying cheaters over others. Many players might quit the game, then they have lost even more.



Thus, if someone is freaking obvious in breaking the ToS, you just have to do something. The line is pretty grey though, if we are being realistic. If we are just taking the simple "it's either white or black" approach, then yeah, the right move is to always ban every cheater.


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You provided a respectable answer, but I don't agree with it. Unfortunately, trying to explain my thinking here would go too far off-topic (but it's so tempting) and involve typing way more than I'd want to. So I'll try to stay out of this for now - until the next time I get silly and want to comment again.
Orcin's point is very fair from a game design standpoint. The game should not restrict the players in how they want to play as much as possible. Fielding a godlike team and smashing people is never a break of ToS, that's just forming a good team and beating others less good. It is up to the game to balance it the field, hence the levels and pro/rel.

What you did is more of a personal choice, you simply can't expect the game to make everyone do that. I sometime do things similar like you in other games for a more balanced gameplay but I don't expect that to be a must.
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Old 05-25-2019, 04:57 PM   #43
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Blizzard is a rare exception.
When a person plays a Blizzard game like WoW they better be mindful of the TOS if they get the itch to cheat. Blizzard will come down like a 12lb sledge hammer. I have seen guild members banned for continuing using LOS cheats which to me is about on par with tanking..
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Old 05-25-2019, 06:21 PM   #44
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Something that continues to ring in the back of my head as I read these comments...

Based on those of us that believe the ToS should be enforced 100% (and I, personally, am not one of them), 100% enforcement, by definition, means playing your best players ALL the time - no exceptions. That opinion even brings into question training players in new positions as well as sitting a few Diamond players down because you want to see if they're Gold backups can do as well.

In effect, your taking away the team owner's ability to manage. In the rule's strictest form, you play your best players or else.

I can't for a minute, believe the OOTP team is saying this or wants the game to be played this way.

But the way this conversation has gone (over and over again) is that ANY infraction - other than playing your best players - is illegal according to the ToS.

I refuse to think that's for the betterment of the game, and I also refuse to believe that choosing to try and move yourself to a lower category so you can compete more equally is a bad thing.

With that all said, I DO believe that if a team owner can be shown to demote himself 2 levels in two years - THAT would be cause for concern and review by the Devs. An intentional drop of 2 levels suggests heavily that the team owner is trying to take advantage of the achievement point system to rebuild his team.

I would be in favor of supporting an accusation of "tanking" that moves your team down 2 levels in 2 years, and let anything less than that slide as the team owner's flexibility to position his team more competitively.

As far as teams that purposely lose to remain at their current level, that should be easy to spot. If your playing the same active roster you did during the season and lose in the playoffs, no foul. If, on the other hand, it can be shown you degraded your active roster for the playoffs, then you would be under suspicion. In fact, if the Devs wanted to, they could calculate an average active roster "value" for the season, and only let playoff teams drop maybe 10% in that value for the playoffs.

I still think the game needs some tweaks to better balance the 6 levels, but I wanted to point out that a "no exceptions" enforcement of "tanking" will kill the fun of this game and ultimately the game itself.
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Old 05-25-2019, 06:24 PM   #45
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Something that continues to ring in the back of my head as I read these comments...

Based on those of us that believe the ToS should be enforced 100% (and I, personally, am not one of them), 100% enforcement, by definition, means playing your best players ALL the time - no exceptions. That opinion even brings into question training players in new positions as well as sitting a few Diamond players down because you want to see if they're Gold backups can do as well.

In effect, your taking away the team owner's ability to manage. In the rule's strictest form, you play your best players or else.

I can't for a minute, believe the OOTP team is saying this or wants the game to be played this way.

But the way this conversation has gone (over and over again) is that ANY infraction - other than playing your best players - is illegal according to the ToS.

I refuse to think that's for the betterment of the game, and I also refuse to believe that choosing to try and move yourself to a lower category so you can compete more equally is a bad thing.

With that all said, I DO believe that if a team owner can be shown to demote himself 2 levels in two years - THAT would be cause for concern and review by the Devs. An intentional drop of 2 levels suggests heavily that the team owner is trying to take advantage of the achievement point system to rebuild his team.

I would be in favor of supporting an accusation of "tanking" that moves your team down 2 levels in 2 years, and let anything less than that slide as the team owner's flexibility to position his team more competitively.

As far as teams that purposely lose to remain at their current level, that should be easy to spot. If your playing the same active roster you did during the season and lose in the playoffs, no foul. If, on the other hand, it can be shown you degraded your active roster for the playoffs, then you would be under suspicion. In fact, if the Devs wanted to, they could calculate an average active roster "value" for the season, and only let playoff teams drop maybe 10% in that value for the playoffs.

I still think the game needs some tweaks to better balance the 6 levels, but I wanted to point out that a "no exceptions" enforcement of the "losing" will kill the fun of this game and ultimately the game itself.

My answer is to pull out my wallet when I need something - in this game and in life. I do agree though that balance can be worked on.
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Old 05-25-2019, 06:27 PM   #46
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But the way this conversation has gone (over and over again) is that ANY infraction - other than playing your best players - is illegal according to the ToS.
Have you read the ToS? Maybe you should.
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Old 05-25-2019, 06:55 PM   #47
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Have you read the ToS? Maybe you should.
Do you honestly believe I would post an opinion on the OOTP License without reading it??

The problem is you see "deliberately lose" as the only relevant phrase and define it as black or white. I don't.

the following phrase - "fail to make a good-faith effort to play the game in a fashion intended to win via fair gameplay according to the intended operation of the game."

... to me is an attempt to make clear the Devs ultimately have the jurisdiction to decide. "good-faith effort" means there are gray areas which OOTP will review and decide on. If it was black and white, a lot of customers would already be banned.
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Old 05-25-2019, 07:02 PM   #48
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Do you honestly believe I would post an opinion on the OOTP License without reading it??

The problem is you see "deliberately lose" as the only relevant phrase and define it as black or white. I don't.

the following phrase - "fail to make a good-faith effort to play the game in a fashion intended to win via fair gameplay according to the intended operation of the game."

... to me is an attempt to make clear the Devs ultimately have the jurisdiction to decide. "good-faith effort" means there are gray areas which OOTP will review and decide on. If it was black and white, a lot of customers would already be banned.

The thing is, how could ever be black and white? It's always going to be a judgement call.
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Old 05-25-2019, 07:32 PM   #49
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The thing is, how could ever be black and white? It's always going to be a judgement call.
But there is a way to minimize the judgement calls by better defining what is and is not "tanking". If OOTP decides "no exceptions", then I have already failed that test - I played Dom DiMaggio for a whole season over better players because I wanted to maximize his OF ratings so he could backup all 3 positions. That was the same year i got demoted. If there are no exceptions, I should be banned.

On the other hand, some flags could be put in place that would be raised automatically and the members here wouldn't have to report anything. A team drops 2 levels in 2 years and the Devs are notified... or a team owner isn't allowed to reduce his active roster list more than X% before the playoffs ...or maybe an active + reserve roster OVR average can't be reduced more than x% per season.

there's a lot of things that could raise flags that the Devs would have to review - anything else would be legal.

I just don't like the idea that we spend most of our time looking at each other as if we're "cheating" - it takes a lot of enjoyment out of the game.
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Old 05-25-2019, 07:43 PM   #50
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He's no longer using all unsung iron heroes, I believe. So we don't know if the devs made him change, or if he changed on his own accord.

We are the silver surfers now. Al Silver


Next week Bronze Warriors. will be in bronze level.


Training up for tournaments.


I changed the team on my own accord. And was not contacted by devs.


Also, I was playing a theme team which is completely legitimate. and not tanking.
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Old 05-25-2019, 07:56 PM   #51
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Just an FYI update of the thread's purpose, I am 27 1/2 games back, in second place, and if this team was removed from the league I would have the best record in the league.


He has a 27 1/2 game lead over EVERYONE. And my team has a 3 game lead in the wildcard standings.


I can't even fathom this kind of disparity. 3 of the six divisions don't have that much disparity between first and last, and he has that over the 2nd best team in the entire league.


I can't be the only one that gets this in every league I enter. There's too much discussion about pro/rel. This is Iron, folks. Does that not incite people to be somewhat frustrated at least? A season or two I was fine with. Six is getting a bit much. When I'm in Iron again next season if this happens again I'm done. I don't mind struggles if I can do something about them, but when the ONLY answer is open the wallet, that's where I draw the line.
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Old 05-25-2019, 08:04 PM   #52
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Does that not incite people to be somewhat frustrated at least?
Nope, hasn't ever bothered me. But it does some/many...
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Old 05-25-2019, 08:04 PM   #53
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Just an FYI update of the thread's purpose, I am 27 1/2 games back, in second place, and if this team was removed from the league I would have the best record in the league.


He has a 27 1/2 game lead over EVERYONE. And my team has a 3 game lead in the wildcard standings.


I can't even fathom this kind of disparity. 3 of the six divisions don't have that much disparity between first and last, and he has that over the 2nd best team in the entire league.


I can't be the only one that gets this in every league I enter. There's too much discussion about pro/rel. This is Iron, folks. Does that not incite people to be somewhat frustrated at least?
Honestly? No it doesn't. You have a team in Iron that has either been very lucky pulling cards, or has spent a pocketful of change to build his team - and hasn't gotten out of Iron yet. It's no different than if you paid $500 into the game and suddenly had a whale. These things happen - but what the game needs to do is insure he moves up a level on Monday because of his win/loss record - NOT whether he wins or loses in the playoffs.
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Old 05-25-2019, 08:12 PM   #54
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Nope, hasn't ever bothered me. But it does some/many...

So you've never been held down by a different whale for 6 seasons before? Lucky you Either that or you ARE the whale :P JK
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Old 05-25-2019, 08:15 PM   #55
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Honestly? No it doesn't. You have a team in Iron that has either been very lucky pulling cards, or has spent a pocketful of change to build his team - and hasn't gotten out of Iron yet.
I don't recall, has it ever been said how long they are in iron? Could be that they have dominated but not won in the playoffs or it could be they are a brand new team fairly fresh out of the entry pool.
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Old 05-25-2019, 08:21 PM   #56
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So you've never been held down by a different whale for 6 seasons before? Lucky you Either that or you ARE the whale :P JK
See False Dilemma.
I have one pay team and multiple free teams. I didn't say that I've never been held down, but rather than it's never come close to bothering me. The only times I've been frustrated (and frustrated is way too strong a word) is when my team got moved up too soon. I had one F2P team that on several occasions made it to the wildcard game with a .500 record and each time either won or made it to the championship game and was promoted to a league they would get smoked in.
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Old 05-25-2019, 08:24 PM   #57
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I don't recall, has it ever been said how long they are in iron? Could be that they have dominated but not won in the playoffs or it could be they are a brand new team fairly fresh out of the entry pool.
The team in this particular league has been around for two years but he was even better last year in almost every statistic (RF, RA, differentialb team ERA, team AVG, etc

The one last season had been in iron for 5 years then won the championship, spent 1 year in silver, and was relegated to iron for 2 more seasons
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Old 05-25-2019, 08:31 PM   #58
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The team in this particular league has been around for two years but he was even better last year in almost every statistic (RF, RA, differentialb team ERA, team AVG, etc

The one last season had been in iron for 5 years then won the championship, spent 1 year in silver, and was relegated to iron for 2 more seasons
Nothing wrong with the first team, sounds unlucky unless he benched everyone for the playoffs.
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Old 05-25-2019, 08:31 PM   #59
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We are the silver surfers now. Al Silver


Next week Bronze Warriors. will be in bronze level.


Training up for tournaments.


I changed the team on my own accord. And was not contacted by devs.


Also, I was playing a theme team which is completely legitimate. and not tanking.
I don't handle punishment, but theme teams are not legal if that team would legitimately not have made it to that level on their talents. So running your all-iron squad at Perfect level is not valid and could be punishable since there's no way they would have made it there on their own. But if you want to do that at Iron or Bronze tiers? Yeah, I don't think there's a problem there.

Yeah, obviously it leaves some grey area. I like to follow the "Don't be a **** about it" rule. So you want to train up a guy at a new position for long-term? Yeah, go ahead. But if you're playing everyone out of position just to move down, or swapping out all your good players in the playoffs to avoid getting promoted, those would definitely be against the "good faith" terms of the contract.

Again, I don't deal with enforcement or anything with the punishments that we give out.I can't speak to every scenario whether it would technically be legal or not.I just know we're always listening and trying to figure out ways to make the game better for everyone.
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Old 05-25-2019, 11:25 PM   #60
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I can't be the only one that gets this in every league I enter. There's too much discussion about pro/rel. This is Iron, folks. Does that not incite people to be somewhat frustrated at least? A season or two I was fine with. Six is getting a bit much. When I'm in Iron again next season if this happens again I'm done. I don't mind struggles if I can do something about them, but when the ONLY answer is open the wallet, that's where I draw the line.
Personally, I don't care if I stay in Iron for 15 weeks or longer. I have no specific reason as to why I want to promote fast nor do I have anything to prove for playing a video game.
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