Lee Smith & Harold Baines to the HOF

Cobra Mgr · 12-09-2018, 11:03 PM

Lee Smith I can see. I really, really liked Harold Baines. Really did. He was one of my favorite players from my pre-teens on. But I just don't think he was good enough for the HOF. Solid, solid professional hitter. I'm happy for him. But if I take away sentiment, I couldn't qualify him.

actionjackson · 12-10-2018, 09:41 AM

Agreed on the two of them CM. Closers are so hard to judge because their workload is so much lower than anybody, yet their work is absolutely vital due to when it takes place.

Obviously, Rivera is a mortal lock, and Hoyt Wilhelm is too. Gossage should absolutely be there. Eck as well, but I consider him to be a bit of a hybrid guy, and he's easily there. After that, it's a bit tricky to judge to me. Based on the others who are already in (Fingers, Sutter, and Hoffman), absolutely Smith should be there. As he's going in though, Billy Wagner should go in too. A very brief career in terms of innings, but he was sensational. Don't sleep on John Hiller and Joe Nathan either. Hiller doesn't have the saves numbers though, so he's probably out. That doesn't diminish how effective he was in my eyes.

I'm like you on Baines. Long career. Very good career. I see the longevity, and I respect that, but I don't see the greatness. I'm very happy for him as well as he seems like a rock solid individual who went about his work very quietly with class and dignity. I'm also happy for The Game who's been stumping for him forever. He's probably hung over as hell today from celebrating last night. Good on you guy, he's in now.

Hoiles · 12-10-2018, 11:06 AM

No issue with Lee Smith. If youÂ’re going to put in closers other than Rivera, he was one of the better closers for a very long time so he fits in well with that group.

Baines getting in is a bit strange. All he pretty much had was stat accumulation, he was never considered even a borderline candidate and his voting totals were always in single digits. His career WAR is around the same as the group of players below that, and there are much bigger names like Mattingly or Strawberry who youÂ’d think would be elected before him.

Hopefully though this means my childhood favourite Tim Wallach has a shot

spleen1015 · 12-10-2018, 01:22 PM

Baines getting in is a joke.

actionjackson · 12-10-2018, 02:20 PM

Let's look at the two primary positions that Baines played in his career: RF and DH. Larry Walker, Reggie Smith, Dwight Evans, and Edgar Martinez all should absolutely be in the HoF, and not just because Baines got there, but because their careers warrant it. The first three were fantastic all around players. You name it, they could do it. All around players seem to get burned when it comes to the Hall, while those who are not as multi-dimensional, but strong in one particular area tend to get in. Sad to say it, but that's the way it seems to be. Edgar was just a ridiculously amazing hitter, whose hitting should overcome the fact he was primarily a DH, but so far it hasn't. .312/.418/.515/.933 with a 147 OPS+, a 147 wRC+, and more walks than strikeouts over an 8500+ plate appearance career. I mean where's the love for this guy? Ugh.

swoboda · 12-10-2018, 03:09 PM

I agree with the general sentiment here. Lee Smith Hall of Famer sure no problem with that. Harold Baines = very good player I liked him, sounds like a great guy but not a Hall of Famer. Baines is going in for his hitting the guy never hit 30 home runs he never even hit 40 doubles in a year, if I'm not mistaken he never even scored a hundred runs in a year. Only one season WAR over 4......
I'm beginning to sound like a GM at contract time...

ThatSeventiesGuy · 12-10-2018, 03:49 PM

Smith: Long overdue.

Baines: I really don't have a huge problem with him getting in, but I think there are other guys who should have been in first, like Edgar Martinez, Lou Whitaker, or Fred McGriff. Hell, if you're going on "players who were at some point the best, or at least Top 5", in the game, even Don Mattingly or Dale Murphy should get in before him. Not quite a joke, but a little iffy.

Jason Moyer · 12-10-2018, 04:25 PM

Rusty Staub 2020.

RchW · 12-10-2018, 04:46 PM

Yes on Smith no on Bains, for the reasons already mentioned.

The Game · 12-10-2018, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Baines getting in is a joke.

The Game · 12-10-2018, 08:35 PM

I dont care what anyone says, I'm ecstatic. Finally my all time favorite player is in and i already booked my hotel room. This will be the 2nd time i will go to Cooperstown. i went when Thomas, Maddux, Glavine, TLR, Torre & Cox went in. Was that 2013?

CONN CHRIS · 12-10-2018, 08:44 PM

I love Baines but come on man.

With Smith; yeah I guess so. He was a good closer for a long time but did anyone that actually watched him when he pitched ever remember thinking "oh boy, if they can just get to the ninth and Smith, this is over"? He just never struck me as a guy that would be in the hall when he was playing. Sort of the reverse of say, Jim Rice. I can remember thinking "damn it, get this guy out because look who's in the batter's box" all the time.

I know, subjective nonsense. I just don't feel either belong.

CONN CHRIS · 12-10-2018, 08:46 PM

Actually, Baines passes my subjective fan's eye test more than Smith (not that I think he belongs in the hall). I used to alwasy just assume Baines would get on base.

David Watts · 12-10-2018, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Game

I dont care what anyone says, I'm ecstatic. Finally my all time favorite player is in and i already booked my hotel room. This will be the 2nd time i will go to Cooperstown. i went when Thomas, Maddux, Glavine, TLR, Torre & Cox went in. Was that 2013?

Congrats man. Have to admit you were the first person I though of when I heard the news about Harold.

BleedBlue · 12-10-2018, 09:34 PM

I'm done with the Hall of Fame. Let's let Baines in, yet Rose, Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, etc etc have no shot because of "morality" or something. I read a book years ago about some of the questionable characters enshrined and even worse the ones that got in with no credentials because their friends voted them in. It's a baseball museum. If need be open up a cheater/doper/scumbag wing of the hall and put the roids guys in there. If you're offended, you can just not visit that part of the museum.

rink23 · 12-10-2018, 10:13 PM

Leafing through some stories regarding the election of Baines and Smith, it sounds like this committee was trying to send a message.

Smith was a no-brainer and should have been in not long after the BBWA decided it was all right to include pitchers who were relievers only among their ranks.

When it came to Baines, I have a feeling that it was a case of committee members Jerry Reinsdorf (White Sox owner) and Tony La Russa (former White Sox manager) throwing their weight around to get Baines selected, in addition to getting a very good/yet not great DH into the Hall.

This will ensure Edgar Martinez is selected by the BBWA next month, and could open the door for players -- although they were not necessarily DHs -- like Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, Larry Walker and Jim Edmonds, and the list goes on and on, who are all clearly better than Baines, selected in the future.

actionjackson · 12-10-2018, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rink23

Leafing through some stories regarding the election of Baines and Smith, it sounds like this committee was trying to send a message.

Smith was a no-brainer and should have been in not long after the BBWA decided it was all right to include pitchers who were relievers only among their ranks.

When it came to Baines, I have a feeling that it was a case of committee members Jerry Reinsdorf (White Sox owner) and Tony La Russa (former White Sox manager) throwing their weight around to get Baines selected, in addition to getting a very good/yet not great DH into the Hall.

This will ensure Edgar Martinez is selected by the BBWA next month, and could open the door for players -- although they were not necessarily DHs -- like Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, Larry Walker and Jim Edmonds, and the list goes on and on, who are all clearly better than Baines, selected in the future.

...And while we're at it...let's get Simba in there. Best catcher not in the Hall of Fame, and it's high time he was.

actionjackson · 12-10-2018, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

Congrats man. Have to admit you were the first person I though of when I heard the news about Harold.

Same here. Heard the announcement, and The Game was the first person to pop into my head, even though he's just an internet stranger. Enjoy that July weekend in Cooperstown dude!

rink23 · 12-10-2018, 11:29 PM

Agree on Simba, as you can likely tell from my photo, he was the favorite player of my childhood.
As an adult, it's probably Scott Rolen, who would probably have been Cooperstown bound if not for Alex Cintron and Hee-Seop Choi ruining his shoulder.

AirmenSmith · 12-13-2018, 01:26 PM

Lee Smith is a yes for me and Baines is a no.

I'm a small hall guy so I wouldn't even be electing people in yearly or filling a ballot with 10 names.

With Smith, just like with Edgar and the DH, I feel that not enough respect has been given to the Relief Pitcher position. At the time Lee Smith played, IMO he was one of the best Relief Pitcher's around.

Now I do compare players to players from a long time ago. So if you don't measure up to the All time greats, I wouldn't vote you in. I believe in some of the automatic "in" rules like 3000 hits or 300 wins. But with Smith, there was nothing to use to measure him up to except starters.

When I think of relief pitching and the "save," The first person I think of is Lee Smith's name first.

Baines, just didn't reach any milestones that I believe a Hall of Famer should. As said earlier, if Baines gets in then so should Mcgriff who was only 7 homers short of 500. (Although I don't believe either should get in)

12-09-2018, 11:03 PM	#1
Cobra Mgr Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Parts unknown Posts: 6,388	Lee Smith & Harold Baines to the HOF Lee Smith I can see. I really, really liked Harold Baines. Really did. He was one of my favorite players from my pre-teens on. But I just don't think he was good enough for the HOF. Solid, solid professional hitter. I'm happy for him. But if I take away sentiment, I couldn't qualify him. __________________ If a man is guilty 4 what goes on inside of his mind, then let me get the electric chair 4 all my future crimes. - Prince Batdance June 7, 1958 - Apr 21, 2016 Last edited by Cobra Mgr; 12-09-2018 at 11:09 PM.

12-10-2018, 09:41 AM	#2
actionjackson Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 6,123	Agreed on the two of them CM. Closers are so hard to judge because their workload is so much lower than anybody, yet their work is absolutely vital due to when it takes place. Obviously, Rivera is a mortal lock, and Hoyt Wilhelm is too. Gossage should absolutely be there. Eck as well, but I consider him to be a bit of a hybrid guy, and he's easily there. After that, it's a bit tricky to judge to me. Based on the others who are already in (Fingers, Sutter, and Hoffman), absolutely Smith should be there. As he's going in though, Billy Wagner should go in too. A very brief career in terms of innings, but he was sensational. Don't sleep on John Hiller and Joe Nathan either. Hiller doesn't have the saves numbers though, so he's probably out. That doesn't diminish how effective he was in my eyes. I'm like you on Baines. Long career. Very good career. I see the longevity, and I respect that, but I don't see the greatness. I'm very happy for him as well as he seems like a rock solid individual who went about his work very quietly with class and dignity. I'm also happy for The Game who's been stumping for him forever. He's probably hung over as hell today from celebrating last night. Good on you guy, he's in now. __________________ My corrected FaceGen IDs .zip file here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oRd...usp=share_link OOTP post re-FG IDs here: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...postcount=3198 My DB which restores Fed Leaguers here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZoN...B2GCcULxt/view Instructions for the DB: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...07&postcount=9

12-10-2018, 02:20 PM	#5
actionjackson Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 6,123	Let's look at the two primary positions that Baines played in his career: RF and DH. Larry Walker, Reggie Smith, Dwight Evans, and Edgar Martinez all should absolutely be in the HoF, and not just because Baines got there, but because their careers warrant it. The first three were fantastic all around players. You name it, they could do it. All around players seem to get burned when it comes to the Hall, while those who are not as multi-dimensional, but strong in one particular area tend to get in. Sad to say it, but that's the way it seems to be. Edgar was just a ridiculously amazing hitter, whose hitting should overcome the fact he was primarily a DH, but so far it hasn't. .312/.418/.515/.933 with a 147 OPS+, a 147 wRC+, and more walks than strikeouts over an 8500+ plate appearance career. I mean where's the love for this guy? Ugh. __________________ My corrected FaceGen IDs .zip file here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oRd...usp=share_link OOTP post re-FG IDs here: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...postcount=3198 My DB which restores Fed Leaguers here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZoN...B2GCcULxt/view Instructions for the DB: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...07&postcount=9

12-10-2018, 03:09 PM	#6
swoboda All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Guarding The Line Posts: 1,205	I agree with the general sentiment here. Lee Smith Hall of Famer sure no problem with that. Harold Baines = very good player I liked him, sounds like a great guy but not a Hall of Famer. Baines is going in for his hitting the guy never hit 30 home runs he never even hit 40 doubles in a year, if I'm not mistaken he never even scored a hundred runs in a year. Only one season WAR over 4...... I'm beginning to sound like a GM at contract time... __________________ "...If you want to look ahead to the bottom of the ninth, the Mets will be sending up Buddy Harrelson, Jerry Buchek , and Don Bosch, we'll be right back after this word from Rheingold Beer" The late great Lindsey Nelson

12-10-2018, 03:49 PM	#7
ThatSeventiesGuy Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Midland, MI Posts: 3,421	Smith: Long overdue. Baines: I really don't have a huge problem with him getting in, but I think there are other guys who should have been in first, like Edgar Martinez, Lou Whitaker, or Fred McGriff. Hell, if you're going on "players who were at some point the best, or at least Top 5", in the game, even Don Mattingly or Dale Murphy should get in before him. Not quite a joke, but a little iffy. __________________ https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...00&postcount=1

12-10-2018, 11:06 AM	#3
Hoiles All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 572	No issue with Lee Smith. If youÂ’re going to put in closers other than Rivera, he was one of the better closers for a very long time so he fits in well with that group. Baines getting in is a bit strange. All he pretty much had was stat accumulation, he was never considered even a borderline candidate and his voting totals were always in single digits. His career WAR is around the same as the group of players below that, and there are much bigger names like Mattingly or Strawberry who youÂ’d think would be elected before him. Hopefully though this means my childhood favourite Tim Wallach has a shot

12-10-2018, 01:22 PM	#4
spleen1015 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 5,951	Baines getting in is a joke.

12-10-2018, 04:25 PM	#8
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,003	Rusty Staub 2020. __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

12-10-2018, 04:46 PM	#9
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: The big smoke Posts: 15,628	Yes on Smith no on Bains, for the reasons already mentioned. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

12-10-2018, 08:35 PM	#11
The Game Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Inside The Game Posts: 30,807	I dont care what anyone says, I'm ecstatic. Finally my all time favorite player is in and i already booked my hotel room. This will be the 2nd time i will go to Cooperstown. i went when Thomas, Maddux, Glavine, TLR, Torre & Cox went in. Was that 2013? __________________ Go today don't wait for tomorrow It isn't promised, all the time you get borrowed Don't live your life for other people Don't bottle your emotions till they crack and fill a couple just sorrows Take your mind and refocus go get a paper write your goals out Throw your middle fingers to all your haters "Stay Strong"

12-10-2018, 08:44 PM	#12
CONN CHRIS Global Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 28,370	I love Baines but come on man. With Smith; yeah I guess so. He was a good closer for a long time but did anyone that actually watched him when he pitched ever remember thinking "oh boy, if they can just get to the ninth and Smith, this is over"? He just never struck me as a guy that would be in the hall when he was playing. Sort of the reverse of say, Jim Rice. I can remember thinking "damn it, get this guy out because look who's in the batter's box" all the time. I know, subjective nonsense. I just don't feel either belong. __________________ Check Out My Cards!

12-10-2018, 08:46 PM	#13
CONN CHRIS Global Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 28,370	Actually, Baines passes my subjective fan's eye test more than Smith (not that I think he belongs in the hall). I used to alwasy just assume Baines would get on base. __________________ Check Out My Cards!

12-10-2018, 09:34 PM	#15
BleedBlue Minors (Single A) Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 72	I'm done with the Hall of Fame. Let's let Baines in, yet Rose, Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, etc etc have no shot because of "morality" or something. I read a book years ago about some of the questionable characters enshrined and even worse the ones that got in with no credentials because their friends voted them in. It's a baseball museum. If need be open up a cheater/doper/scumbag wing of the hall and put the roids guys in there. If you're offended, you can just not visit that part of the museum.

12-10-2018, 10:13 PM	#16
rink23 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 18,005	Leafing through some stories regarding the election of Baines and Smith, it sounds like this committee was trying to send a message. Smith was a no-brainer and should have been in not long after the BBWA decided it was all right to include pitchers who were relievers only among their ranks. When it came to Baines, I have a feeling that it was a case of committee members Jerry Reinsdorf (White Sox owner) and Tony La Russa (former White Sox manager) throwing their weight around to get Baines selected, in addition to getting a very good/yet not great DH into the Hall. This will ensure Edgar Martinez is selected by the BBWA next month, and could open the door for players -- although they were not necessarily DHs -- like Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, Larry Walker and Jim Edmonds, and the list goes on and on, who are all clearly better than Baines, selected in the future. Last edited by rink23; 12-10-2018 at 10:17 PM.

12-10-2018, 11:29 PM	#19
rink23 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 18,005	Agree on Simba, as you can likely tell from my photo, he was the favorite player of my childhood. As an adult, it's probably Scott Rolen, who would probably have been Cooperstown bound if not for Alex Cintron and Hee-Seop Choi ruining his shoulder.

12-13-2018, 01:26 PM	#20
AirmenSmith Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Corpus Christi TX Posts: 2,090	Lee Smith is a yes for me and Baines is a no. I'm a small hall guy so I wouldn't even be electing people in yearly or filling a ballot with 10 names. With Smith, just like with Edgar and the DH, I feel that not enough respect has been given to the Relief Pitcher position. At the time Lee Smith played, IMO he was one of the best Relief Pitcher's around. Now I do compare players to players from a long time ago. So if you don't measure up to the All time greats, I wouldn't vote you in. I believe in some of the automatic "in" rules like 3000 hits or 300 wins. But with Smith, there was nothing to use to measure him up to except starters. When I think of relief pitching and the "save," The first person I think of is Lee Smith's name first. Baines, just didn't reach any milestones that I believe a Hall of Famer should. As said earlier, if Baines gets in then so should Mcgriff who was only 7 homers short of 500. (Although I don't believe either should get in) __________________ Come join me on my Twitch Channel for gaming at its excellence Twitch Link