Learning and LOSING Positions

[cuervo72]

From the online manual:

Learning New Positions
Players learn new positions through practice. The best way to accomplish this is by having them play in a new position. Players learn more quickly when they play regularly in the minor leagues, or in spring training. The more a player plays at a certain position, the more he improves. After he has acquired a certain amount of experience at a position, he will be given a position rating that will display on his profile.

OOTP follows the concept of the "defensive spectrum." The defensive spectrum is as follows: DH - 1B - LF - RF - 3B - CF - 2B - SS. Generally speaking, the further to the right, the harder the position is to play and the harder it will be to convert a player to that position. Position players can learn to play catcher, but it often takes a very long time, and they typically don't make very good ones.

Note: A player cannot 'lose' positions. Once he has learned a position, he will always have a rating at that position.

Bolded that last part, because I don't think it is always the case - at least it wasn't in OOTP13. I'm curious if this still holds true in OOTP15.

In FOBL I took the somewhat unusual route in converting not one, but TWO starting SS/2B to relief pitchers (both very effectively). The second of these was GG-caliber - 10 range on a base 10 scale (he has a defensive rating of 21 as a P). I have recently been considering changing him BACK, however...

He no longer has any IF experience. Both of these guys had their non-P fielding ratings drop completely off the map in the first offseason (I'm assuming at the yearly rollover point, as that's where the dev tracker logged it) after their first full year pitching. I assume this was intended? If so, is it logical (or any less logical than two starting IF becoming top-shelf RP)? I mean, I get it on some level but boy, building this guy back up to a potential 9 at SS is going to be a bit of a pain (especially if it could have been avoided by simply switching him back to a position player before year end, then switching him back to pitcher in ST).

[BIG17EASY]

Good point. I don't reference the manual much anymore because it seems like a lot of it is out of date. In any case, I've definitely seen players lose positions. In my current game (started in 13, imported to 14 and now playing in 15), Jose Reyes retired in his late 30s with only a low rating at 2B.

For your guy, I wonder if he might regain a high rating after a certain amount of games, rather than having to build all the way up from (effectively) zero to 9 or 10. Just a wild guess on my part, though.

[cuervo72]

I'd like to think so, but I don't know if the game has any other capacity for memory here (really, that's what positional experience is, and if that's gone....) - I'm thinking he would have to make any climb from 0.

With old guys, I think their talents erode to the point that even if they still have positional experience, that's not enough to overcome the threshold for a rating if they no longer have range (same deal with young players who don't - some players are just never going to be able to play SS/2B). This is different though; going from 9 or 10 to 0 is not a natural progression.

[TGH-Adfabre]

This is an online league right? Is there anyone who will look in the player editor to see if he has expeience or if it has been wiped out?

[Assos]

Does not age also factor into the learning and unlearning of positions? Look at Mickey Mantle, age and knees caught up with him that forced him to attempt to learn 1B

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by Assos

Does not age also factor into the learning and unlearning of positions? Look at Mickey Mantle, age and knees caught up with him that forced him to attempt to learn 1B

I wish this happens more than it currently does in OOTP15. I am seeing far too many players at 2B who lost all range still getting starts at 2B. Also these guys tend to gain alot of weight so they end up being 230-240Ib second baseman. You would think these playerswould be force to learn 1B, RF, or LF.

[Assos]

Or be full time DH's and PH's

[Pacoheadley]

Originally Posted by Assos

Does not age also factor into the learning and unlearning of positions? Look at Mickey Mantle, age and knees caught up with him that forced him to attempt to learn 1B

There is a difference between knowledge of a position, and the ability to play it. With the exception of the problem by the person who started this thread, players in OOTP never "forget" how to play a position, they just get so bad at it that they shouldn't play it.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by TGH-Adfabre

This is an online league right? Is there anyone who will look in the player editor to see if he has expeience or if it has been wiped out?

I didn't look in the player editor, but I assume the SQL data dump is the next best thing, and I can confirm that they are all 0 there. Unless there is a disconnect between what is in-game and what is exported via sql/csv, which I seriously doubt.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

I wish this happens more than it currently does in OOTP15. I am seeing far too many players at 2B who lost all range still getting starts at 2B. Also these guys tend to gain alot of weight so they end up being 230-240Ib second baseman. You would think these playerswould be force to learn 1B, RF, or LF.

Things have improved. Around v12 I documented multiple cases of mid-30's All Star 1B power hitters being traded and/or signed as FA by AI teams and being used as SS because they retained sufficient skills to meet the AI threshold. There were two problems. Too many all infield position players and no mechanism to ensure aging players can't move against the position spectrum. It's pretty clear IRL that middle infield skills deteriorate quickly when you play the positions. If you don't play those positions for several seasons the skill retention should be severely limited or cut off especially after 30. No 10 year 1B power hitter and very few 3B should ever be able to be a starting SS or 2B at 34+.

OOTP should have a module that forces aging infielders out of the IF and allows some capability improvement.at corner OF and 1B. I'm thinking of Eric Hinske, maybe Julio Franco as examples.

[cuervo72]

postscript on this: I changed the player's position to 3B and started him there in ST. His rating at 3B at the end of ST is a 3. Not nearly enough of a climb to be useful there.

Player Report for #19 Clive Ellacott

[sjshaw]

I've found the position ratings move in either direction pretty quickly based on which position the player is actually playing, so you may see further improvement at 3B in the near future, assuming you keep playing him there.

[kingcharlesxii]

There's few issues here, I think:

1) Guys who get flipped from hitter to pitcher will have all their fielding experience reduced to 0 at some point in the offseason. Going from pitcher to hitter doesn't seem to have the same effect. That seems a bit unrealistic to me. It should work like the next one:

2) Guys will slowly lose experience at positions they don't play. This was added in 14 and I think is a good change, it was too easy to make everyone a super-utility guy.

3) I fully agree that guys don't learn positions fast enough in spring training. You have to spend basically 6 months to a year to have a guy switch positions. That said, if a guy has high ratings but low-ish experience, he doesn't field like a guy without a glove now. He'll make more errors but he's not horrifically bad like in earlier versions. Ellacott probably wouldn't be awful and he'd definitely get better as the season went on. He probably wouldn't be fully developed until next season though.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by sjshaw

I've found the position ratings move in either direction pretty quickly based on which position the player is actually playing, so you may see further improvement at 3B in the near future, assuming you keep playing him there.

How active does that have to be, I wonder? Are reserves at the ML level going to pick up experience at a position even if they aren't starting? On the flip side, are ALL reserves going to lose ground in this version if they aren't playing enough? I have already noticed guys losing secondary position skills even in our short time in this version - Bud Ross has already gone from a 10 to 9 at 3B and a 10 to 8 at 1B.

I suppose I might find out soon enough with the backup question. I think my current plan is to swap Ellacott back to P in order to re-slot him as Closer 1 (freeing up Rubio to eat more innings), then switch him back to 3B and use him as a backup (or possibly SS). It appears he will keep the closer designation in the process, and should pitch as long as he's not in the starting lineup.

[Carlton]

They never lose the experience but lose the tools to play it

Mostly range...if range gets below 80 IIRC, then SS is gone, 65 2B
Double play needs to be 65 I believe in order to play both 2B/SS

But all I see is range plumment, which is a shame, I hope down the road an arm injury might actually effect arm rating, or a back injury might effect DP, and age will be a tossup with defense. Right now it's a definite...when a player gets old, defense is the first to go but many older players stay in because they might suffer at the plate but they are still defensive wizards, so the decline should be slow

Also, offensively players change as they get older, might be nice to see a player go from a speedy, good contact, good gap power guy who rarely Ks, to a HR, Walk or K type of player

[VarlosZ]

Originally Posted by kingcharlesxii

2) Guys will slowly lose experience at positions they don't play.

I can attest to this. Playing as the Mets in 14, I played David Wright at 1B in spring training to soften the ground in case I decided his fielding at 3B became unacceptable as he got older. He'd get up to a rating of 25 or 30 (out of 80) at 1B, but by the time next spring rolled around he was back to having no rating there. I went into the editor and, sure enough, his 1B experience was 0. Did this for a couple of years with ultimately no accumulation of experience at 1B.

[jaysdailydose]

Originally Posted by kingcharlesxii

.

3) I fully agree that guys don't learn positions fast enough in spring training. You have to spend basically 6 months to a year to have a guy switch positions. That said, if a guy has high ratings but low-ish experience, he doesn't field like a guy without a glove now. He'll make more errors but he's not horrifically bad like in earlier versions. Ellacott probably wouldn't be awful and he'd definitely get better as the season went on. He probably wouldn't be fully developed until next season though.

I've got to disagree with you here. Even first base is amazingly hard to learn at the major league level if you've never played there before.

I think six months to a year is good, especially since we're most worried about getting "experience" at the position.

Obviously not on a major league level, but I was scouted for D1 before I got hurt... The year I converted from SS to third was the worst year of my life... you wouldn't think it is that different, but it is.

[Hank1974]

Originally Posted by Pacoheadley

There is a difference between knowledge of a position, and the ability to play it. With the exception of the problem by the person who started this thread, players in OOTP never "forget" how to play a position, they just get so bad at it that they shouldn't play it.

This isn't the case with OOTP14.
I stuck a 1B in LF for a few games and his rating there went from "-" to "2" (out of 8).
By the end of the season, I ended the experiment when I found a spot for him at DH and 1B and low-and-behold, his '2' rating at LF disappeared.

[Number4]

Why is a gold glove SS converted to RP not used as defensive replacement? Pitchers are allowed to take the field, you know, and so he'll keep his exp. there - while helping his team slam the door in close games.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Number4

Why is a gold glove SS converted to RP not used as defensive replacement? Pitchers are allowed to take the field, you know, and so he'll keep his exp. there - while helping his team slam the door in close games.

Because it's not realistic and it could ruin an arm because of the different throwing motion. Consider Sergio Santos; in 5 MLB seasons he never made an appearance at SS. I'll bet that it was never seriously considered due to the risk. In the OF there might be less risk in a short stint.

It would be interesting to document the actual number of pitcher appearances in non-pitcher positions. A low number methinks.