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Old 04-26-2014, 01:37 PM   #1
Habsfan18
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Draft pool low quality of players?

Is anyone else noticing a really low quality of draft eligible players? In my imported game from 14, I'm at the 2022 draft and I've noticed that only 35 of the available 1050 players have more than 1 star potential. 13 of them having more than 2 star potential. I have one of the best scouting directors in the game.

So, is this normal? Have the quality of the draft classes been lowered this year?
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Old 04-26-2014, 03:02 PM   #2
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Have you guys noticed this as well?
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Old 04-26-2014, 03:05 PM   #3
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They were lowered last year. This is working as intended.

There's something like 20 pages of discussion of this on the forums dating back to last year if you feel like searching for it.
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Old 04-26-2014, 03:07 PM   #4
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If it's any consolation- and it's probably not -the league I just created has about 5,000 FA in it and not a single one is rated over 1-star. Frankly, in my case, I think it's a matter of allowing time to pass and get some scouting experience established on them. But we'll see.
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Old 04-26-2014, 03:46 PM   #5
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We're having to crank up the player creation modifiers in the FOBL to get roughly the same draft pool quality.
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Old 04-26-2014, 04:11 PM   #6
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We're having to crank up the player creation modifiers in the FOBL to get roughly the same draft pool quality.
It's your league and your choice to make but that absolutely will lead to major problems in the future. Your star players won't perform how you expect them to and the overall talent level in your league will look great on paper, but actually be really, really flat statistically.

You'll also possibly have contracts get out of control as guys with huge ratings but relatively poor performance demand elite contracts.

It's so bizarre to me that folks would rather have something look how they expect it to but get worse results in the long term.

Why not just trust that Markus knows what he's doing with stuff like this, understands the game, tests thoroughly, and is doing it for a real reason, not just out of a random desire to make changes?

Last edited by Lukas Berger; 04-26-2014 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 04-26-2014, 04:15 PM   #7
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We know what we're doing, but thanks for your thoughts. We have our own independent financial system outside the game and suffered through a paucity of talent about halfway through our 50-year history that almost killed the league. It's hard to get excited about playing against 31 other people when everybody's best player is a 6/5/6/5/6 on a 1-10 scale.

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It's your league and your choice to make but that absolutely will lead to major problems in the future. Your star players won't perform how you expect them to and the overall talent level in your league will look great on paper, but actually be really, really flat statistically.

You'll also possibly have contracts get out of control as guys with huge ratings but relatively poor performance demand elite contracts.

It's so bizarre to me that folks would rather have something look how they expect it to but get worse results in the long term.

Why not just trust that Markus knows what he's doing with stuff like this, understands the game, tests thoroughly, and is doing it for a real reason, not just out of a random desire to make changes?
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Old 04-26-2014, 04:16 PM   #8
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nm
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Old 04-26-2014, 04:17 PM   #9
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nm
Thanks for your concern.
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Old 04-26-2014, 06:58 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Habsfan18 View Post
Is anyone else noticing a really low quality of draft eligible players? In my imported game from 14, I'm at the 2022 draft and I've noticed that only 35 of the available 1050 players have more than 1 star potential. 13 of them having more than 2 star potential. I have one of the best scouting directors in the game.

So, is this normal? Have the quality of the draft classes been lowered this year?
It's a mistake they made least year. They like it, and many of us hate it.

Just dial up your modifiers and deal with it.
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Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 04-26-2014, 07:04 PM   #11
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Why not just trust that Markus knows what he's doing with stuff like this, understands the game, tests thoroughly, and is doing it for a real reason, not just out of a random desire to make changes?
Why of course, we should never question anything, right?

Markus is building and testing each version to fine tune simulation of modern day baseball and historical replay environments and rightfully so.

He isn't building and testing the game to fine tune the balance for decade old online leagues. Nor should he be expected to be able to cater to each individual leagues needs.

FOBL was been in existence since v3 and 50 seasons. As such, we should be the ones to judge which features to use and we need to test and understand all of the features to be able to do so.

So please, as a moderator, try not to tell 32 paying customers of multiple versions of OOTP that we are not playing the game correctly.
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Old 04-26-2014, 07:07 PM   #12
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Meh, when the ratings were high many were complaining that their players were regression at a young age (in the minors) when the game was only adjusting ratings to what we see now on draft day.
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Old 04-26-2014, 07:54 PM   #13
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It's a mistake they made least year. They like it, and many of us hate it.

Just dial up your modifiers and deal with it.
Not a mistake
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Old 04-26-2014, 09:14 PM   #14
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The way I look at it is that considering only a handful of players (relatively speaking) from each draft class and also only a smaller handful of international signings actually make it to the big leagues. It's probably only the ones who have more than one star potential that make it to the big leagues anyway vs. the thousands of players drafted per year and end up only getting to A or AA ball before stalling out (and some who end up being minor league journeyman 6-year FA's but aren't good enough for MLB). Than this is probably about as authentic as you can get to how many players actually will become big leaguers vs. how many have some potential but really are only drafted and signed to fill out a minor league roster spot. I'd say that Markus, Andreas, and the rest of the team are doing a pretty damn good job with their evaluations when putting together the database. I'm sure they have the help of some people from say Baseball America and other professional scouts as well as what they see themselves. I do tweak some of the ratings myself in game, but for the most part I trust their judgment. They know more than I do after all.
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Old 04-27-2014, 12:29 AM   #15
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Why of course, we should never question anything, right?

Markus is building and testing each version to fine tune simulation of modern day baseball and historical replay environments and rightfully so.

He isn't building and testing the game to fine tune the balance for decade old online leagues. Nor should he be expected to be able to cater to each individual leagues needs.

FOBL was been in existence since v3 and 50 seasons. As such, we should be the ones to judge which features to use and we need to test and understand all of the features to be able to do so.

So please, as a moderator, try not to tell 32 paying customers of multiple versions of OOTP that we are not playing the game correctly.
You've put a lot of words in my mouth that were never there.

I'm not saying don't question anything. I am saying that maybe the guy who makes the game and the folks who build the rosters for the game might actually have a clue how things are supposed to work best. Is that really a revolutionary idea?

My moderator status has nothing to do with this discussion. I'm not arguing from authority, of which I have none. I'm arguing from the position of someone who understands the mechanics involved, why they work the way they do, as well as why they needed to be changed from how they worked in the past. That's it.

As for playing the game "correctly", again, you're putting words in my mouth. However you want to play the game is up to you and the members of your league. Of course you should be able to choose how to run your own league. I never said anything different. In fact the first words of my comment that you objected to are "It's your league and your choice to make"!

I am warning you, as someone who understands why these changes were made, that you're doing something that will lead to complications and issues in the long run. If you feel the benefits are worth the price, then don't let me stop you.

But I'd think you'd at the very least want to have as much information as possible regarding the choices you make. That's all I've been doing, offering information and clarification. What you do with it is up to you

Last edited by Lukas Berger; 04-27-2014 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 04-27-2014, 12:56 AM   #16
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Not a mistake
It's a dream to some and a nightmare to others.

Personally I hate it.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 04-27-2014, 03:05 AM   #17
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It's your league and your choice to make but that absolutely will lead to major problems in the future. Your star players won't perform how you expect them to and the overall talent level in your league will look great on paper, but actually be really, really flat statistically.
That can't be said with any accuracy without knowing a leagues settings. What happened in that league was that average talents (1-10 scale) were dropping close to 3 using the default rookie generation modifiers, so they had to be adjusted to avoid the issue sjshaw described. The impression that high rated players perform poorly only applies if there are far too many high rated players in a league.

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You'll also possibly have contracts get out of control as guys with huge ratings but relatively poor performance demand elite contracts.
If OOTP15 is basing contract demands on ratings without considering relative ratings in the league, that's a problem. I'd prefer to believe the game is better than that!

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It's so bizarre to me that folks would rather have something look how they expect it to but get worse results in the long term.
Again, that cannot be said with any accuracy without knowing a leagues settings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukasberger View Post
Why not just trust that Markus knows what he's doing with stuff like this, understands the game, tests thoroughly, and is doing it for a real reason, not just out of a random desire to make changes?
Don't short sell Markus' love of randomness!
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Old 04-27-2014, 04:24 AM   #18
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It's a dream to some and a nightmare to others.

Personally I hate it.
never said you didnt. It still wasnt a mistake.
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Old 04-27-2014, 11:04 AM   #19
Lukas Berger
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That can't be said with any accuracy without knowing a leagues settings. What happened in that league was that average talents (1-10 scale) were dropping close to 3 using the default rookie generation modifiers, so they had to be adjusted to avoid the issue sjshaw described. The impression that high rated players perform poorly only applies if there are far too many high rated players in a league.
That's true. Here's the thing:

The problem you're describing is not related to the issue being discussed here, nor to sjshaw's original comment that started this whole round of debate. The old draft settings set the ratings really high then quickly knocked them down post draft. Now there just isn't that high initial rating followed by a knockdown. The ultimate ratings for established MLB players have not changed under the new draft rating system.

If your league had too many low rated established MLB players, then it wasn't anything to do with the draft system or default .PCM's. It was likely something else that was off in your settings, that something got screwed up over time, that you'd previously changed the .PCM's in a less than optimal way or maybe even just a bug.

I'm describing how the game is optimally meant to work if played as designed. Obviously if you've changed the settings for your league in some kind of drastic way, then some of what I'm saying won't apply, since you'll be playing under entirely different conditions.

From what you guys have said, I'd say you've changed quite a few settings in the past with your league and created some issues while doing so. Now you're trying to patch them up by changing more. If that works out for you and you enjoy it, then great. More power to you.

In the end that doesn't really have anything to do with the high/low draft pool ratings question and so the original comment that "We're having to crank up the player creation modifiers in the FOBL to get roughly the same draft pool quality." is going to be misleading to folks reading this discussion, as it refers to a league with totally different settings from the defaults as well as a problem that's unrelated to the issue being discussed here.

Last edited by Lukas Berger; 04-27-2014 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 04-29-2014, 01:44 PM   #20
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The player creation process and its connection to both the development model and a league's existing talent pool has never really been particularly great. It eventually works, but its not great. And in a lot of ways it's not particularly entertaining to deal with, mostly because, IMHO, player creation theory was kinda all over the map for awhile. Of course, I have no real idea where it is at today, but the comments in this thread suggest that it's still in flux.

Part of the FOBL issue is tied into the fact that it is a deep and longstanding OOTP league, meaning, it's been dealing with version issues since v3. And, let's face it, players were totally different in the old v5 days...and then the transitions between v6->v2007->v11+ had lots of player development tweaking and pitcher model changes and whatnot going on. I personally did a lot of the work on the FOBL environment back then, and to be honest it was hard to keep talent levels and league totals properly regulated across the entire environment--it took days and weeks of tweaking and testing to find the right mixes every time a version changed. My guess is that FOBL had its issues in part because I wasn't doing it anymore...so blame me.

It does appear the model has stabilized a bit more in the past couple years. But, in all seriousness, having studied player creation deeply for a long time, and knowing the team as I do, I doubt that it's really well-tuned to the environments that the big, granddaddies of long-running leagues have at their disposal.

That mix an be very complex.
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