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[HolyCow98]

Originally Posted by dmytron

To you, Americans, maybe. To us, Europeans, Asians, Africans and South Americans, not at all. Baseball? Sucks. Soccer? No way!

Compared to the NFL, MLB, NBA and to a lesser degree NHL....(the big 4) Football (soccer) has nearly no coverage in the States on TV. Except around World Cup time you almost never hear of much hype about it in the states unless you look for it. On either side....none of the sports "suck"...they wouldn't have been played for as long as they have been and have as many fans as they do if they did

If we grew up with Football/soccer like you guys did...going to large packed stadiums and being able to see games on the TV....I'm sure we'd be just as rabid about the sport as you guys are. That really only exists for the NFL and College Football, MLB here though.

For example, I live about 20 miles from Atlanta, GA...and just googled professional soccer in Georgia to see where I could go if I wanted to catch some professional soccer. To my surprise it appears we have something called the Atlanta Silverbacks!

"Atlanta Silverbacks is an American professional soccer club based in Atlanta, Georgia, United States. Founded in 1998, the club plays in the North American Soccer League (NASL), the second tier of the American Soccer Pyramid. The team plays its home games at Atlanta Silverbacks Park, a large soccer complex featuring a 5,000-seat soccer-specific stadium in Atlanta, Georgia, 15 miles northeast of downtown. The team's colors are red, black, grey, and white."

I've lived here for almost 8 years didn't knew they existed until 30 seconds ago....

It's a pityful shame but sometimes I get an impression that еhere in Ukraine there is no other sport than soccer. Even basketball (that is on second place) is very poor. And I say nothing about the condition of basketball arenas... That's why here only fews will be interested in some American sport called baseball.

[garion333]

Originally Posted by Donevyn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Alx_ta9Raqg

(hello garion...donan here

Thanks, D, but now we're on page 3 and nary a screenshot has been made.

[Walsh06]

Originally Posted by dmytron

To you, Americans, maybe. To us, Europeans, Asians, Africans and South Americans, not at all. Baseball? Sucks. Soccer? No way!

No, soccer is a very dull sport to watch. Maybe because I grew up watching and playing the fastest field sport in the world but soccer is so slow and nothing happens.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

Wow, you might want to review the claims you just made and compare them to the content of my posts. You have made some massive, fallacious leaps in logic. To get to my real point, though, you way want to do a search for posts that Markus and others have made and analyze how many times that they have referred to the number of programmers that SI, MLB The Show, and other companies have.

It's almost always in the context of explaining why OOTP can't do something or when someone merely points out they they like something better in another game. You will find hundreds of posts like this over the years.

It's a tired, old refrain, and I didn't say that this constitutes criticism of SI. I said that it downplays what they do because there are consistent responses that point to the disparity in resources rather than the quality of the output and the fact that considerable successes and major breakthroughs were achieved long before those resources were at that level.

It's a classic deflective and defensive tactic, so it makes sense psychologically. But, conveniently, it doesn't mention or acknowledge the fact that SI started with nothing and produced more with limited resources than all the rest. And it misses an opportunity for self-reflection and and to learn more from what these other companies do to succeed. Repeatedly pointing out the disparity in resources is an oversimplification, just as is the claim that SI has had a vastly easier path because of the sport involved. Trust me, there have been countless football management sims since the early 1980s, but only one has ever achieved true, lasting success. And it has faced a far larger competitive environment due to the popularity of the sport. The road is littered with failures. So it's not as simple as the sport merely being more popular. On my view, attempts to simplify it in those terms are just another form of deflection and defense.

Think of it this way. Let's say that you own and really like a particular car but then you buy a second car from a different company and you like it better for various reasons. Wouldn't it be pretty lame if you were a long-time contributor on the forums of the first car maker and you mentioned that you liked the other car and certain features better, and then the first car maker responded by pointing out that the other company has more employees? Or what if the first car maker pointed out that the other company had it much easier because it makes a certain style of car that is more popular? It just doesn't seem very becoming of the company or very relevant.

To me, referencing the disparity in resources when people praise a different product and want to see something similar in yours is like bringing up the big advantage that Apple or Microsoft has if someone compares your product to theirs and wants to see something similar from you. Yes, it's patently obvious that they have huge advantages in resources and experience, but that doesn't stop other companies or developers from trying to do better and beat them with fewer resources. Whether it's Samsung crushing the iPhone right now or tiny SaaS companies delivering a better CRM solution than Microsoft, companies can get it done. And they don't seem to get into this refrain about comparing resources because that's not necessarily what's driving anything.

Tesla recently achieved the highest safety score in the history of auto manufacturing despite having far fewer employees, far fewer resources, and nowhere near the total funding and investor support that companies like GM, Ford, or Toyota have. It's only been in business for a relatively small number of years, and it was nearly bankrupt not too long ago. But it managed climb out of the hole and get it done.

And OOTP has managed to do quite well for itself too. And it's done this despite relying largely on a single programmer for many years. So are the resources really all that relevant? Or does it really come down to talent and what you do with it?

I think the more interesting question is whether OOTP may actually choose to remain smaller and not aggressively pursue expansion for various reasons, including keeping things more personally manageable and avoiding debt or financial risk. Some companies choose this path, though it's unconventional. I have a client that takes a similar approach and only wants to grow its newest subsidiary to a certain level and then keep it sustainable at that level.

Based on my experiences with other companies and startups over the years, and based on the stability, success, and potential that we've seen from OOTP, I've always felt that OOTP would have a good shot at securing business loans and/or some private financing to fund a more rapid expansion and growth strategy. Hell, even the production and launch of MicroLeague Baseball was originally funded by private investors that were found by networking at a local athletic club and simply showing them the basic mathematical model that churned out results.

But I suspect that OOTP is more comfortable with the way it has always done things, slowly and steadily, rather than pursuing rapid growth and expansion and having to assume the corresponding risks and stresses. Those can be significant, so it comes down to your personal preferences and your tolerance for that.

Now, maybe some of these observations will send some of you into a rage. But I have to think that it's that defense mechanism kicking in again. Some folks seem to really take issue with praise being given to other products here or to someone having a a strong opinion that doesn't fit with their view of OOTP. It's rare that I mention other products on the forums, but I have consistently praised FM on occasion over the years, and I maintain that it is the better product, it has done better relative to the available resources, and I like the way that SI has approached things better. That does not imply that OOTP is somehow an awful company. It's a simple comparison. I make no apologies for that, and I make no apologies for my view that repeated references to disparities in resources between OOTP and other companies downplays the achievements of those other companies and is a defensive, deflective maneuver.

If this somehow offends you on a deep level, then I invite you to use the ignore option and disregard my posts. But I think I've laid it out pretty clearly, and I don't think there is much else to be said from my standpoint.

First I wanted to reply in length to this. But then I figured it would be wasted time, for everyone involved. So I just say this: I love what we do, I am proud of it, and I do not care about what anyone else thinks how we should run our business. We do things the way we feel is best for us, our customers and our company.

Cheers!

[BigCity]

This endless discussion of Soccer(Football) versus Baseball versus Football(Soccer) versus Basketball is sometimes maddening. All three are worthy sports and different people prefer one over the other based on their own experiences and interests. I like baseball mostly because it is a statistics game, and I like math. I have the least interest in Soccer only becasue I've had very little exposure in my life to it. I am absolutely sure if I had been born in Brazil or Italy (for example) Soccer would likely be my first love.

And the discussion about the OOTP business model is just as Maddening. Although comparing OOTP to FM points out some major differences, it does not define whether EITHER is a good, bad, or better game. The enjoyment of a game is based on the player that plays it. For you, FM might be the greatest game in the world, and for me OOTP is. Trying to define why I'm right and you are wrong is a useless endeavor - just like arguing politics

I'm glad Markus simply stated he loves what he does and is proud of it. Enough said.

[sansterre]

I cannot say that I'd have done OOTP differently; I can say comfortably that I could not have done it at all. The growth of games and companies is an organic thing. This game has been 'alive' nearly as long as some of my employees. And every year I am consistently impressed with the quality of the game. Perhaps moreso, I am impressed by the focus on integrity that Markus and co. demonstrate every version.

I've bought many sims and many times found that these games offer features well in excess of what they can execute. The features are really neat, but the game itself is so easy to exploit that it has stopped being a simulation, and started being a... for lack of a better way of saying it, a slightly masturbatory platform for unrealistic winning and domination. Baseball Manager, Head Coach, Madden (yes, Madden doesn't sell itself as a simulation, just bear with me)... For me at least, the ability to butcher the computer wholesale is less appealing than having a game that successfully models the sport it purports to.

So for me, that OOTP spends every year focused on staying true to its number one goal, being an accurate and realistic baseball management sim, is exactly what I'm looking for. Every iteration is an improvement. To look Markus in the metaphorical face and say "yes, every version is better, but I want it to be better in my way, and not yours" is to totally miss the point. A game of this kind, that is this good... We are fortunate it even exists. To be anything other than respectfully grateful is to miss the chance to appreciate how blessed a situation we find ourselves in.

Things could always be better. But to focus on that means that you've missed out on the chance to be happy by realizing just how good they already are.

[rancer890]

It's really weird how everyone's arguing that their sport is 'better'. Reminds me of console wars. None of you are right or wrong ya know.

It's not really ignorance to think one is better than the other. It's just exposure, and I personally like all sports equally (except circle track racing, because you know, it's boring driving in circles. Euro circuit racing is sooooo much better, etc etc )

And even though I like all sports and all sports games, OOTP baseball is the game which I do think has gotten it right (OOTP hockey otoh, not so much). Yeah, FM annually sells 7 million copies of the game (including me up to FM13), but the quality hasn't been great the past few years. Additions like press conferences and player interactions haven't really enhanced the experience, but it's more like a burden. I think given that OOTP is the only baseball sim on the market, it's great that Markus isn't taking the fanbase for granted and just pushing new features for the sake of pushing new features, which is what I think SI and Miles are starting to go to. You can argue whether a business model is superior than another, but at the end of the day it's Markus and OOTPD's choice to do whatever the heck they want to do.

The OOTP franchise can easily go down the the FM route currently, because they have a monopoly on the baseball sim market and if you notice from other monopolies (the football sim market with FM and EA's lockdown the Madden market and the FIFA market, and TS franchise by SCEA SD) they can easily go down the SI/EA route and cut corners and give a new roster update for $50/$60 and what not, but they aren't.

I think it's more refreshing that a sports gaming company values its customers with their product instead of trying to nickel and dime everything (DLC). The fact that Markus himself states how he values his customers and just not chasing the almighty Euro even though there's no other competition makes me feel at ease I'm going to keep getting good OOTP baseball games.

[Honorable_Pawn]

Originally Posted by sansterre

I cannot say that I'd have done OOTP differently; I can say comfortably that I could not have done it at all. The growth of games and companies is an organic thing. This game has been 'alive' nearly as long as some of my employees. And every year I am consistently impressed with the quality of the game. Perhaps moreso, I am impressed by the focus on integrity that Markus and co. demonstrate every version.

I've bought many sims and many times found that these games offer features well in excess of what they can execute. The features are really neat, but the game itself is so easy to exploit that it has stopped being a simulation, and started being a... for lack of a better way of saying it, a slightly masturbatory platform for unrealistic winning and domination. Baseball Manager, Head Coach, Madden (yes, Madden doesn't sell itself as a simulation, just bear with me)... For me at least, the ability to butcher the computer wholesale is less appealing than having a game that successfully models the sport it purports to.

So for me, that OOTP spends every year focused on staying true to its number one goal, being an accurate and realistic baseball management sim, is exactly what I'm looking for. Every iteration is an improvement. To look Markus in the metaphorical face and say "yes, every version is better, but I want it to be better in my way, and not yours" is to totally miss the point. A game of this kind, that is this good... We are fortunate it even exists. To be anything other than respectfully grateful is to miss the chance to appreciate how blessed a situation we find ourselves in.

Things could always be better. But to focus on that means that you've missed out on the chance to be happy by realizing just how good they already are.

Well said.

You, my friend, is a Jeanyus with a capital J! Take a bow.