Historical endings

[sprague]

Wanted to post a reminder as there is still a big issue with the historical game that has been around since I started, way back with OOTP 12 I think.


That being, when playing a recalc game, and NOT using retire automatic, and you come to a player's final year, that player (especially if young) will continue in the game with the stats ratings from his final year. This matters not if a player's last year was terrible, he will just fade out in oblivion.


But players like Bill Keister 1903 or Ed Delhanty or many early pitchers, who end thier last year with superstar numbers, can carry on for decades as star players. I have had to know in advance who these players are, and edit in new values for them after the final big year.


One way around this would be to set up that the game in recalc mode will take the next empty year of a player (as some sort of poor stat) and when added to the previous year,will then marginalize that player going forward.


Other than staying on top of all of them and manually editing them out, you can get some wacky 5 star 50 year olds stil at the top of the league leaderboards.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by sprague

Wanted to post a reminder as there is still a big issue with the historical game that has been around since I started, way back with OOTP 12 I think.


That being, when playing a recalc game, and NOT using retire automatic, and you come to a player's final year, that player (especially if young) will continue in the game with the stats ratings from his final year. This matters not if a player's last year was terrible, he will just fade out in oblivion.


But players like Bill Keister 1903 or Ed Delhanty or many early pitchers, who end thier last year with superstar numbers, can carry on for decades as star players. I have had to know in advance who these players are, and edit in new values for them after the final big year.


One way around this would be to set up that the game in recalc mode will take the next empty year of a player (as some sort of poor stat) and when added to the previous year,will then marginalize that player going forward.


Other than staying on top of all of them and manually editing them out, you can get some wacky 5 star 50 year olds stil at the top of the league leaderboards.

One solution to this issue is to use a combination of recalc and the development engine. I play a ton of random debut and using recalc and development works great to ensure players don't simply repeat the same season over and over again.

[thehef]

I haven't tested this in the last version or two, but this also worked:

- retire according to history off
- recalc on
- development on, with talent change randomness set to a very low number (such as 1)

This is almost like playing with development off, but it will keep a guy like Koufax from pitching as an ace well into his late 40's...

This is very-nearly like playing with development off, but there's enough of it to properly age players. At least based upon some limited testing a few years ago...

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by thehef

I haven't tested this in the last version or two, but this also worked:

- retire according to history off
- recalc on
- development on, with talent change randomness set to a very low number (such as 1)

This is almost like playing with development off, but it will keep a guy like Koufax from pitching as an ace well into his late 40's...

This is very-nearly like playing with development off, but there's enough of it to properly age players. At least based upon some limited testing a few years ago...

That's what I mean by a combo of recalc and development. Pretty much have to do this if you play random debut with recalc on. it

[David Watts]

Here is Sandy Koufax. Random Debut 5 year recalc development on and TCR set to 50.

[Charlie Hough]

Actually, the situation has changed over the years, and the development engine will now take over when players' stats run out in the database. However, we still have some major problems with players such as Koufax, whose stats ran out when he was in the prime of his life and was one of the best pitchers in baseball. As a result, in my tests, he can still pitch virtually forever, because something about his initial import and his high ratings precludes his decline. His ratings can still increase or decrease, but sometimes he actually improves after his last historical recalc season, which exacerbates the problem once he should begin to decline.

I've reported this issue as a bug, and I've been pushing hard to see this handled properly for years. It took a long time to get to the point where the game was coded to allow development after recalc stats run out. But it's still not working the way it's intended, so hopefully we'll see an improvement in OOTP25.

In my tests, there are certainly plenty of players who go through modest decline once their stats run out, and this seems to play a role in their retirement. But you still have the occasional outliers, and you still have Koufax breaking everything.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

Actually, the situation has changed over the years, and the development engine will now take over when players' stats run out in the database. However, we still have some major problems with players such as Koufax, whose stats ran out when he was in the prime of his life and was one of the best pitchers in baseball. As a result, in my tests, he can still pitch virtually forever, because something about his initial import and his high ratings precludes his decline. His ratings can still increase or decrease, but sometimes he actually improves after his last historical recalc season, which exacerbates the problem once he should begin to decline.

I've reported this issue as a bug, and I've been pushing hard to see this handled properly for years. It took a long time to get to the point where the game was coded to allow development after recalc stats run out. But it's still not working the way it's intended, so hopefully we'll see an improvement in OOTP25.

In my tests, there are certainly plenty of players who go through modest decline once their stats run out, and this seems to play a role in their retirement. But you still have the occasional outliers, and you still have Koufax breaking everything.

The screenshot right above your post shows Koufax in a random debut league using 5 year recalc combined with the OOTP development engine. He retires at age 36 and as you can see he is nowhere close to being invincible as he grows older.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by David Watts

The screenshot right above your post shows Koufax in a random debut league using 5 year recalc combined with the OOTP development engine. He retires at age 36 and as you can see he is nowhere close to being invincible as he grows older.

That is similar to my experience in historical leagues. Development is on by default. There's a reason. If people don't like the results from turning it off they have only themselves to blame.

What I would like to see when someone who had an early ending career historically plays beyond his historical playing time is someone else getting a career ending injury. Same thing when a career minor leaguer makes good.

[Charlie Hough]

Originally Posted by David Watts

The screenshot right above your post shows Koufax in a random debut league using 5 year recalc combined with the OOTP development engine. He retires at age 36 and as you can see he is nowhere close to being invincible as he grows older.

Yes, he might be handled differently in a random debut league. There was a whole discussion about this a few months ago in the historical games forum, where I posted a bunch of examples from a test game. Those examples included Koufax still pitching in his 50s with no decline in any of his ratings. I tested this pretty thoroughly, and the results were mixed. Some players declined modestly and retired, but some didn't decline at all, and Koufax still seemed to break things, at least in a non-random-debut game.

However, I think some good attention has been brought to this, so hopefully we'll see a fix for it where development kicks in for all games where players don't retire according to history, and it works realistically and correctly for everyone, including strange cases such as Koufax.

[Brad K]

Koufax has always been realistic in my historical saves. Retires sometime in his 30s after a slow fade or a collapse over a couple of years.

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by sprague

Wanted to post a reminder as there is still a big issue with the historical game that has been around since I started, way back with OOTP 12 I think.

I first noticed this bug a few years ago when Richie Ashburn played into his late 40s and broke Ty Cobb's hit record!


The workaround solution to this is if you have locked your ratings, then you must also set players to "retire according to history"


It's just one of those bugs you have to remember.

[fredbeene]

Originally Posted by thehef

I haven't tested this in the last version or two, but this also worked:

- retire according to history off
- recalc on
- development on, with talent change randomness set to a very low number (such as 1)

This is almost like playing with development off, but it will keep a guy like Koufax from pitching as an ace well into his late 40's...

This is very-nearly like playing with development off, but there's enough of it to properly age players. At least based upon some limited testing a few years ago...

Is there a way wait to RANDOMIZE the players 'personality and other attributes' or a selected few.

Injuries are so impactful to career. It would be nice to randomize who is FRAGILE ----- to IRON MAN.
That seems like a fun alternate way to see if Sandy Koufax plays until 40...

I am also not sure if the durability changes over players career or if they are locked into it. I have not been able to run a histroical report on that

[Brad K]

I play historical. I play with recal and with Development on I have not experienced the problems described. I can only conclude the problems occur when people disabled development.

Recal and Development ON is the default. There's a reason the defaults are defaults. Over ride at your own risk.

Koufax' performance varies, as it should. There should be uncertainty about how long he will be a good pitcher. However I have never had him pitch until he was 50 years old.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Brad K

I play historical. I play with recal and with Development on I have not experienced the problems described. I can only conclude the problems occur when people disabled development.

Recal and Development ON is the default. There's a reason the defaults are defaults. Over ride at your own risk.

Koufax' performance varies, as it should. There should be uncertainty about how long he will be a good pitcher. However I have never had him pitch until he was 50 years old.

I doubt anyone will pay attention. Hilarious.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I doubt anyone will pay attention. Hilarious.

Society is full of people who determine truth based on what they want to be true.

[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I doubt anyone will pay attention. Hilarious.

It seems obvious to me that's how it would work. Ratings only really change 1 of 3 ways. Recal which changes based on the year or years set. TCR which changes ratings somewhat randomly to reflect the randomness of RL, and the development engine which changes ratings over time based on a number of factors.

With nothing to recal then there is no ratings to change.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I doubt anyone will pay attention. Hilarious.

People use the ignore feature at their own risk!

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I doubt anyone will pay attention. Hilarious.

The key thing to remember is that if you have development disabled, then you really REALLY need to enable "Retire According to History"


If you do that, it's perfectly fine.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by uruguru

The key thing to remember is that if you have development disabled, then you really REALLY need to enable "Retire According to History"


If you do that, it's perfectly fine.

As the screenshots show above, if you use a combination of recalc and development it's perfectly fine as well.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by uruguru

The key thing to remember is that if you have development disabled, then you really REALLY need to enable "Retire According to History"


If you do that, it's perfectly fine.

But then when a player asks for a huge long term contract well past what are likely to be his productive years, you can give it to him knowing he'll retire.