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Old 01-12-2020, 10:40 PM   #1
Eugene Church
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Any News About OOTP21?

I have checked all of the OOTP Forums, but I don't see any promotional activities to get me excited about the new version.

Sure would be nice to know what new features will be included.
We used to get a "countdown to release date" to build excitement.
I always get excited and look forward to the new version.
Tell us something about it.

My wish is that you perfect the animation and get rid of the dumb and absurd movements as much as possible... I hope you key on that.

A few years ago I think Markus mentioned that he wanted to have a stadium editor or stadium creator one of these days... any plans for that?
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Old 01-12-2020, 11:00 PM   #2
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Fixing animations is all well and good but I prefer they get rid of the "dumb and absurd movements" by the AI before they work on something cosmetic such as animations.
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Old 01-12-2020, 11:03 PM   #3
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I have been thinking the exact same thing Eugene.

And in addition, the 3D is something that I have been looking to see take another step forward this year as well (animations, player models, stadiums).

That, and as always, the AI; well, the AI and 3D are things that will always need continuous improvement.

Anyway, with pitchers and catchers reporting in about a month, hopefully we can at least get some news after the Super Bowl.

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Old 01-13-2020, 12:41 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post
Fixing animations is all well and good but I prefer they get rid of the "dumb and absurd movements" by the AI before they work on something cosmetic such as animations.
I play a simple game and don't use financials... I sure that needs to be worked on, too.
Often I see the AI play a mediocre player as a regular with a real good player on the bench...that's one of my pet peeves... also don't like it when a slow-running catcher bats second... never really understood that choice unless he is a good contact hitter with a very good on-base percentage and can advance the runner.
.
I love the animation and really enjoy watching my games play out, even with the glitzes that occasionally happen... it's truly amazing how far the animation has come in recent versions.

Here is a few things that bother my enjoyment of the animation:
Things like a hard hit routine ball fielded by an infielder and he makes no play... player gets an infield hit... happens too often.
Ball fielded by pitcher... has plenty of time to throw runner out... he hesitates and doesn't throw right away... another infield hit.
Deep fly ball to center field... it hits IN FRONT of the center fielder... he fields on a hop and the batter get a double.
Too I often I see a deep fly to the outfield with less than two outs and the runner on third doesn't tag and score.
Just hope they will fix these things like this.

Sorry, to get off-topic... this thread is wanting some news about OOTP21 and its new features and fixes.
I'm sure you got your list, too.

Hope Matt Arnold or Lukas Berger will tell what the plans are OOTP21.

Last edited by Eugene Church; 01-13-2020 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 01-13-2020, 01:15 PM   #5
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Gotta be patient. We'll announce things when we're ready
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Old 01-13-2020, 01:42 PM   #6
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Gotta be patient. We'll announce things when we're ready

Sort prospects by position...maybe....pretty please???
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Old 01-13-2020, 08:34 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene Church View Post
I play a simple game and don't use financials... I sure that needs to be worked on, too.
Often I see the AI play a mediocre player as a regular with a real good player on the bench...that's one of my pet peeves... also don't like it when a slow-running catcher bats second... never really understood that choice unless he is a good contact hitter with a very good on-base percentage and can advance the runner.
Sure, those are things that can be improved. But I'm talking more about in game decisions than anything else, especially when comparing to animations. Like I understand that the animations tell me nothing official about what happened. they are just a "fictional re-enactment" that gives you a vague idea of what happened. Like I will never be able to figure out that a guy got caught in a run down via the animations but the PbP text is quite clear. My problem is more with things such as using a double switch when ahead in the ninth inning such that you mess up your defensive alignment bu hey, at least the pitcher won't come up in the tenth in the fist few batters in the unlikely event that the other team scores the exact amount of runs necessary to go into extra innings. Or another thing I see is the AI pinch hitting for a hitter in the six spot while letting a worse hitter of the same "handednes" in the 8th spot bat. Or when I have the "Favor L/R Matchup" maxed and the AI brings in my lefty middle reliever to face a few righties and then takes him out for a righty just as several lefties are now coming to the plate. This happens a lot. Anyways, I'm basically looking for better AI in the game play such that I can play out a game and not feel like I have a huge advantage over just simming the game.

I'm not saying don't fix animations and I understand that not all the resources are best at fixing the thing I might want most so yeah, fix animations too since I do use them. But if you ask me whether you want more realistic animations or more realistic in game management, I'll always choose the latter until at such point as I feel the AI can at least come close to what I would consider "optimal" choices.

And yes, it is kind of funny to watch your catcher chase a groundball out to the wall and throw the guy out at first as the PbP states that he "dribbled one in front of the plate". But at least that discrepancy is just cosmetic and doesn't affect the actual sim, unlike the horrendous in game decisions sometimes made by the AI.
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Old 01-13-2020, 11:17 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post
Sure, those are things that can be improved. But I'm talking more about in game decisions than anything else, especially when comparing to animations. Like I understand that the animations tell me nothing official about what happened. they are just a "fictional re-enactment" that gives you a vague idea of what happened. Like I will never be able to figure out that a guy got caught in a run down via the animations but the PbP text is quite clear. My problem is more with things such as using a double switch when ahead in the ninth inning such that you mess up your defensive alignment bu hey, at least the pitcher won't come up in the tenth in the fist few batters in the unlikely event that the other team scores the exact amount of runs necessary to go into extra innings. Or another thing I see is the AI pinch hitting for a hitter in the six spot while letting a worse hitter of the same "handednes" in the 8th spot bat. Or when I have the "Favor L/R Matchup" maxed and the AI brings in my lefty middle reliever to face a few righties and then takes him out for a righty just as several lefties are now coming to the plate. This happens a lot. Anyways, I'm basically looking for better AI in the game play such that I can play out a game and not feel like I have a huge advantage over just simming the game.

I'm not saying don't fix animations and I understand that not all the resources are best at fixing the thing I might want most so yeah, fix animations too since I do use them. But if you ask me whether you want more realistic animations or more realistic in game management, I'll always choose the latter until at such point as I feel the AI can at least come close to what I would consider "optimal" choices.

And yes, it is kind of funny to watch your catcher chase a groundball out to the wall and throw the guy out at first as the PbP states that he "dribbled one in front of the plate". But at least that discrepancy is just cosmetic and doesn't affect the actual sim, unlike the horrendous in game decisions sometimes made by the AI.
Hands down, you are right... the AI needs to be fixed first.
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Old 01-14-2020, 06:50 PM   #9
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Hands down, you are right... the AI needs to be fixed first.
And you are right about him being right.

I really feel like I added something here. Seriously fix AI above all else imho. The simulation of the game is why people choose this over The Show.
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:14 PM   #10
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There may be reasons why the AI selects player A over player B in a given situation. Maybe the wind is blowing out at Wrigley and the pitcher they're bringing in is a groundballer who doesn't allow home runs. Or maybe it is a mistake and that's OK. Even in real life, especially if you go back 20-30 years, you'll see a lot of occasions where a mediocre player is getting too much playing time at the expense of someone better.

My beef is more that all AI teams no matter what they're listed as preferring, speed, power, OBP, youth, veterans, left/right preference... to me it seems they all value players pretty much the same and use them the same. There should be much more of a difference between the AI run teams. Some of the GM's and managers created that way will suck, sure, and those GM's and managers will lose and be replaced within a couple of years.

I've always thought the AI could fix itself. That a universe over 20, 30 seasons would find more optimal ways to play IF we have more diverse AI strategies out there and if we let evolution take its course. Just like in the real game.

On topic, I'm here checking for OOTP21 news too. Whatever it features, I am really hoping the base game is the focus this year now that PT has matured a bit. I couldn't convince myself to pick up OOTP20 even on sale. There just wasn't enough there for me.
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:35 PM   #11
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There may be reasons why the AI selects player A over player B in a given situation. Maybe the wind is blowing out at Wrigley and the pitcher they're bringing in is a groundballer who doesn't allow home runs. Or maybe it is a mistake and that's OK. Even in real life, especially if you go back 20-30 years, you'll see a lot of occasions where a mediocre player is getting too much playing time at the expense of someone better.
The problem is that right now you could put 100 box scores in front of me, 50 from actual MLB games and 50 from an OOTP simmed season and I can pick out which is which at a much greater than 50% chance to be right. MLB managers don't do double switches in the ninth inning in order to bring their closer in unless they need to replace another player in the lineup due to injury or for defensive purposes. They never do it so the pitcher comes up later in the lineup like the OOTP AI does. You also almost never see a manager pinch hit for a better hitter in the lineup while letting the "no hit" defensive infielder stay in when behind. OOTP will take the one good pinch hitter they have and use them late in a game the first time they see that pinch hitter as a better option than the current hitter instead of looking at the entire lineup for that inning and trying to make sure that the three or four best hitters possible get to the plate. In other words, the sixth batter stays in and the guy in the eight or nine hole gets pinch hit for with that awesome bench bat you have. And then just basic things like pitcher usage. Had a game yesterday I watched where the starter had a shutout into the ninth in a 7-0 game, got the first two guys out but apparently because he crossed the 100 pitch threshold, with no established pitch count maximum, he gets removed. I would look at that box score and assuming no injury noted, would pick it out as not one from MLB. The same kind of thing happens all the time in OOTP where a pitcher is going along, gets the first batter out in an inning and then is replaced. It isn't that this never happens in MLB, but it certainly doesn't happen such that your lefty starter faces a righty batter, gets him out and then gets replaced by a righty reliever to face the two lefty batters due up. Every time I see that it breaks immersion.

As good as this game is, it can be improved as computer AI gets more sophisticated. I will be satisfied the day I do that 100 box score example and it becomes basically a coin flip as to whether it came from an actual MLB game or was generated by a simmed OOTP game. Because at that point it should also mean that I won't have a huge advantage over the AI when playing a game out. As it is now, I feel compelled to not play them out because of that huge, in game advantage.
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Old 01-14-2020, 11:32 PM   #12
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Any chance we can add sign stealing to the game? Something to help those Astros and Red Sox compete!
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Old 01-15-2020, 01:25 AM   #13
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Interesting notes on the game-management AI.

Although I think the game-management AI has improved over the years, it certainly needs work. The AI is sort of split into 2 main categories in OOTP: Franchise / trade AI, and game-management. AI overall is a bear when it comes to development resources, and not to go too far off topic, that is sort my concern when it comes to adding big new features this year that require a lot of time and effort to develop and maintain (improve).

OOTPD has a set amount of time / resources to spend every year. The AI & 3D alone require big commitments; from what I gather, even small improvements in the AI require a lot of time, and in an interview, I think Marcus said that even he was surprised by the amount of internal resources and time that the 3D demanded. My hope is that this year, OOTPD has the dry-powder to make big improvements in the big 3 as I see it (game engine, 3D, and AI), while still being able to make strides in other areas.

-Cal
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Old 01-15-2020, 12:46 PM   #14
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Although I think the game-management AI has improved over the years, it certainly needs work. The AI is sort of split into 2 main categories in OOTP: Franchise / trade AI, and game-management. AI overall is a bear when it comes to development resources, and not to go too far off topic, that is sort my concern when it comes to adding big new features this year that require a lot of time and effort to develop and maintain (improve).l
This is true. As a GM-only player I know I can't appreciate how lacking the in-game AI might be. It's good enough for me in the rare times I play, but I can imagine the frustration if you're regularly seeing things which would never happen IRL.

On the other side, Trade AI has gotten a lot better but it still isn't very good. Part of that goes back to what I referred to above, where players are pretty much valued the same to everyone no matter what their preferences or team situation. The AI isn't aggressive enough about fixing glaring team problems and this is clear when you play custom leagues or attempt to play historical pre-draft. The AI almost never buys players from the lower leagues even when they have the money and there are obvious upgrades there.

Some of Markus's problem with upgrading AI is marketability. Every version says "Improved AI", but without knowing exactly what is improved it isn't much of a selling point.

OOTP does have the dry powder now, but how will they use it? Will they improve the base game or re-invest it into Perfect Team which is the reason they have that extra cash in the first place? There's more money in casual players than there are in nerds like us. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I skipped 20, so 21 will have those updates too in my case

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Old 01-15-2020, 04:20 PM   #15
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The problem is that right now you could put 100 box scores in front of me, 50 from actual MLB games and 50 from an OOTP simmed season and I can pick out which is which at a much greater than 50% chance to be right.
This sounds like a fun machine learning exercise!
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