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Old 01-12-2020, 12:46 AM   #1
desertnomad
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Request for defensive catching metrics

How do you tell the impact of a catcher on a pitching staff with all the noise in catching stats? Plus we are given ZR which is a bunk stat for catchers. And what does Eff measure in a catcher? It is purely an OOTP stat, no?

I have a catcher with a terrible Eff with 13 ability on a 20 point scale. The backup has 17 ability and way better Eff and cERA. I don't know what is noise and what is sample size.

Any chance we can get some better catching stats in OOTP 21?? Please.
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Old 01-12-2020, 01:52 PM   #2
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Can you tell us which stats for catchers currently available would be useful that we don't currently have?
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Old 01-12-2020, 03:02 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post
Can you tell us which stats for catchers currently available would be useful that we don't currently have?
Two important stats I would like to see in the game would be :

1. Pitch Framing-the ability or inability to steal strikes for the pitcher.

2. Pitcher/Catcher communication(better term?)- ability to positively impact the performance of the pitcher through both motivation and pitch calling
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Old 01-12-2020, 03:10 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salmon View Post
Two important stats I would like to see in the game would be :

1. Pitch Framing-the ability or inability to steal strikes for the pitcher.

2. Pitcher/Catcher communication(better term?)- ability to positively impact the performance of the pitcher through both motivation and pitch calling
Those sounds like new ratings you want, not new stats. From what I understand both of these things are currently incorporated into the catcher ability rating.
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Old 01-12-2020, 04:07 PM   #5
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I agree. Those may be useful ratings but what stats in the real world would you base them off of?
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Old 01-12-2020, 06:14 PM   #6
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There should be a way to suss out a pitch framing stat given that Fangraphs uses it in their WAR calculation. As it is in OOTP now, pitchers are stealing WAR from defensive catchers.
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Old 01-12-2020, 06:23 PM   #7
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There should be a way to suss out a pitch framing stat given that Fangraphs uses it in their WAR calculation. As it is in OOTP now, pitchers are stealing WAR from defensive catchers.
Last I remember it being discussed on these forums, someone had provided some evidence that because everyone knows about pitch framing now, the amount gained from the worst catcher to the best is pretty minimal. If there are some good stats out there that say otherwise though, then yeah, I'd be for seeing it in game.
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Old 01-12-2020, 06:28 PM   #8
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I agree. Those may be useful ratings but what stats in the real world would you base them off of?
For Pitch Framing: Strike Zone Runs Saved-
Actual Strikes- Expected Strikes= Extra
Extended into Runs saved for the year

Defensive Runs Saved
-Adjusted Earned Runs Saved-staff handling

I feel the game currently undervalues the defensive contribution of good catchers especially in staff handling and pitch framing. I hope future versions will incorporate this important part of baseball.

These stats are available in the annual Bill James Handbook and online.
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Old 01-12-2020, 06:57 PM   #9
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The simple problem with things like this, particularly pitch framing, in OOTP is that they measure something discernible from the games being played out. For pitch framing, it's pitches called strikes that are actually out of the strike zone. So how does OOTP track that when we don't have pitch locations that matter in the game? The pitch location graphic is cosmetic only and does not affect gameplay. So there's currently no mechanic in the game that can be measured to come up with a pitch framing stat or rating.

In terms of motivating a pitcher, that's something that's not even tracked or given a scout rating in real life, so it's certainly impossible to add to OOTP.

As RainKing said, some of these things are already folded into the catcher rating. Unless there are significant changes to how games are played out, I wouldn't expect anything like this in the future. If you want to get an idea of the best catchers in your game in terms of pitch framing and pitch calling, take a look at the catcher's ERA statistic. You may be able to identify some guys with consistently low numbers throughout their careers.
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Old 01-13-2020, 03:29 AM   #10
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Catcher ERA is a bit unreliable because there's so many variables at play. Plus it's only earned runs, so errors won't count. Is a passed ball an error? Anyway.

Pitch framing (and I guess gamecalling) is in the game via Catcher Ability. This rating noticeably affects K and BB rates for pitchers.

Would be nice if there was a corresponding stat for this so that the WAR boost could show up for the catchers instead of pitchers.
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Old 01-13-2020, 10:42 AM   #11
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Catcher ERA is a bit unreliable because there's so many variables at play. Plus it's only earned runs, so errors won't count. Is a passed ball an error? Anyway.

Pitch framing (and I guess gamecalling) is in the game via Catcher Ability. This rating noticeably affects K and BB rates for pitchers.

Would be nice if there was a corresponding stat for this so that the WAR boost could show up for the catchers instead of pitchers.
How can there be a stat for pitch framing when there are no pitch locations in the game engine?
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Old 01-13-2020, 10:57 AM   #12
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How can there be a stat for pitch framing when there are no pitch locations in the game engine?
You couldn't do a stat for it but if you knew how much of a pitcher's war should go to the catcher on average as well as at each extreme, you could have an internal rating for it for each catcher that corresponds to the range you have established and then automatically subtract from the pitcher and add to the catcher whatever percentage of the war corresponds with his internal rating. It isn't something that would result from actual outcomes, it would just be inferred from the raw rating. Might be the best compromise available though.
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Old 01-13-2020, 11:02 AM   #13
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How can there be a stat for pitch framing when there are no pitch locations in the game engine?
There are defensive ratings

Are there batted ball locations in the game?
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Old 01-13-2020, 11:33 AM   #14
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There are defensive ratings
I don't know what this is referring to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBeisbol View Post
Are there batted ball locations in the game?
There are no pitch locations in the game. The ones shown in the one game view are only cosmetic. We can't have a stat that tracks something that's not in the game.
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Old 01-13-2020, 11:37 AM   #15
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Quote:
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You couldn't do a stat for it but if you knew how much of a pitcher's war should go to the catcher on average as well as at each extreme, you could have an internal rating for it for each catcher that corresponds to the range you have established and then automatically subtract from the pitcher and add to the catcher whatever percentage of the war corresponds with his internal rating. It isn't something that would result from actual outcomes, it would just be inferred from the raw rating. Might be the best compromise available though.
I think we're talking about two different things. It sounds like you're talking about a pitch framing rating, which I don't have an argument against, other than I personally don't feel it's needed because it's already part of the catcher rating. But I can see why someone would want it and how it would affect a team's pitching staff.

I'm specifically talking about a pitch framing stat, which is what Argonaut asked for in the post I replied to. There's no way to quantify pitch framing in the game in a statistical sense when there are no pitch locations in the game. That's the point I'm trying to make.
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Old 01-13-2020, 11:56 AM   #16
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The difference between good pitch framers and bad pitch framers is falling as catchers are now being culled on their way up to MLB if they don't have this skill.

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Old 01-13-2020, 12:03 PM   #17
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I think we're talking about two different things. It sounds like you're talking about a pitch framing rating, which I don't have an argument against, other than I personally don't feel it's needed because it's already part of the catcher rating. But I can see why someone would want it and how it would affect a team's pitching staff.

I'm specifically talking about a pitch framing stat, which is what Argonaut asked for in the post I replied to. There's no way to quantify pitch framing in the game in a statistical sense when there are no pitch locations in the game. That's the point I'm trying to make.
I thought Argonaut's ultimate point was that he wanted the part of War that allegedly, currently goes to the pitcher but is produced by the catcher to actually go to the catcher. That was what I was trying to fix, albeit not in a perfect way.
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Old 01-13-2020, 12:29 PM   #18
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I thought Argonaut's ultimate point was that he wanted the part of War that allegedly, currently goes to the pitcher but is produced by the catcher to actually go to the catcher. That was what I was trying to fix, albeit not in a perfect way.
Yeah, he's looking for a pitch framing stat to help quantify that. I get the point, but OOTP can't have a stat that measures something that's not in the game (pitches outside the strike zone that are called strikes).

I think unless the game engine undergoes a major change to include pitch locations that affect gameplay, we have to accept that pitch framing is part of the catcher rating. I don't have the math behind how much pitch framing affects a catcher's WAR, but I can't imagine it's skewing the number so significantly that we can't tell who the best defensive catchers are in OOTP.

Plus, if the electronic strike zone comes into MLB -- and signs are pointing in that direction -- pitch framing will immediately become a zero factor.
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Old 01-13-2020, 01:00 PM   #19
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There doesn't have to be a pitch location thing in order to incorporate a stat. How does the game increase strikeouts and decrease walks for pitchers that are benefiting from a good defensive catcher? I assume it gives a small chance for each at-bat to result in a more positive outcome for the pitcher. Over time, this effect adds up into real value. I'm lobbying for that value to be tracked via some sort of stat. Call it whatever Bill James calls it if you like.

I know historical mode isn't the biggest focus for OOTPD. But even if pitch framing disappears via an electronic strike zone (there's still gamecalling then, but I digress)... framing will still be a factor for any historical game in OOTP. It affects things like the Hall of Fame, which I'm interested in. My Jim Sundberg in my dynasty doesn't have eye-popping WAR totals so I'm sure he won't get in, but what if he's really added a lot more value than the game thinks, because he is a defensive catcher?

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Old 01-13-2020, 01:02 PM   #20
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Yeah, he's looking for a pitch framing stat to help quantify that. I get the point, but OOTP can't have a stat that measures something that's not in the game (pitches outside the strike zone that are called strikes).

I think unless the game engine undergoes a major change to include pitch locations that affect gameplay, we have to accept that pitch framing is part of the catcher rating. I don't have the math behind how much pitch framing affects a catcher's WAR, but I can't imagine it's skewing the number so significantly that we can't tell who the best defensive catchers are in OOTP.

Plus, if the electronic strike zone comes into MLB -- and signs are pointing in that direction -- pitch framing will immediately become a zero factor.
I've read some commentary that the ESZ makes some bizarre strike calls on pitches which are clearly outside the zone. Does the ump giving signals have the right to overrule?
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