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Old 01-14-2020, 08:35 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by RchW View Post

Speaking of cheating can one assume that all Astro players now, shall we say convicted, will be left off ballots for awards and the HoF?

Ha, RchW beat me to this puch. Should have scanned the whole thread before engaging the snark engine.
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Old 01-14-2020, 08:40 PM   #82
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... and Cora has been canned ('parted ways')
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Old 01-14-2020, 09:28 PM   #83
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No offense, but I'm having a hard time understanding this perspective. Both Manfred's report and the owner himself did a pretty good job of indicating that the owner knew nothing of the scheme. Yet you want him punished more than he already was, and seem to be ok with the main offenders facing absolutely zero punishment.

If it's from the perspective of "he should've known," then I think that applies to the GM, but not necessarily the owner. According to the reports, the GM barely knew. So it's pretty reasonable to assume that the owner wouldn't have been informed. So why punish him more than he already was, and let the players completely off? Simply because it's easier?
First, I’m not ok with the main culprits not being punished, I just think it will be too hard of a fight for MLB to want the fight. I’d love for them to suspend everyone they say is involved and fight the union. I’m just telling my opinion of why they won’t.

And if you don’t punish the owner more, then there is no deterrent for owners to do anything in the future and can maintain their ‘plausible deniability’. If the NBA can take an ownership away because of racist comments that weren’t illegal and not against any rule in particular other than the don’t make us look bad rule, then MLB can surely find a more severe punishment for an owner who was either too blind to see what his team was doing or knew completely what they were doing and covered his tracks really well.
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Old 01-14-2020, 09:36 PM   #84
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That's really the entire ball game. The union has to defend the players. They have to put up a strong defense and demand that MLB show all evidence. MLB really doesn't want to enter into that arena because it would take years to sort out. They want this scandal behind them quickly.
MLB shortcut the process when it became too hard and inconvenient. We'll see if that costs MLB later.
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Old 01-14-2020, 10:07 PM   #85
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First, I’m not ok with the main culprits not being punished, I just think it will be too hard of a fight for MLB to want the fight. I’d love for them to suspend everyone they say is involved and fight the union. I’m just telling my opinion of why they won’t.
Understood.

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And if you don’t punish the owner more, then there is no deterrent for owners to do anything in the future and can maintain their ‘plausible deniability’.
Agree in general, but at the same time, when you don't punish players at all... well, you get the idea... Where is their deterrent? That their manager & GM might get fired and their owner might get fined? ... I don't see the merits in additionally punishing the owner in this case, especially when he's so low on the overall culpability scale... That said, as I wrote earlier in this thread:
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... the organization [should] be prohibited from displaying or advertising anything that references or alludes to their 2017 Division, AL, or World Series championships. In perpetuity. No 2017 banners or trophies in the stadium. No 10-year celebration in 2027. No 2017 commemorative promo items given to fans. Nothing in the team store that references 2017.
This ^^^ I would see less as punishment to the owner (though he would surely feel it), as it would be punishment to the organization as a whole and the best remedy (among very few realistic options) that there is to "correct" the BlackStros invalid 2017 titles ...

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If the NBA can take an ownership away because of racist comments that weren’t illegal and not against any rule in particular other than the don’t make us look bad rule, then MLB can surely find a more severe punishment for an owner who was either too blind to see what his team was doing or knew completely what they were doing and covered his tracks really well.
Where I would agree is that if the NBA can take ownership away for doing something not against any rule in particular, then MLB could surely find a way - some way...any way... - to punish players for blatantly violating rules that affected the outcome of games. (I say that while fully acknowledging both the hurdles that the existence of the union present,a and MLB's understandable desire to not let this drag on for months and years.)
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Old 01-14-2020, 11:00 PM   #86
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Okay this has been pushed back to 2017 for the Astros and there was an issue with the Red Sox in I think 2017 being REPORTED to MLB by the Yankees for using Tech. to steal signs ..

A little bit of comment about that situation --

The MLB investigation found the Red Sox would have an off-field person watching a camera feed of the catcher. He would then contact the dug-out via the Apple Watch, and that signal would be passed on from the dug-out to the batter.

**** Is this why Alex Cora was hired from the Astros by the Red Sox -- so they could cover it up better . ------- By the way Manager Alex Cora and Red Sox's have mutually parted ways . Does this mean they want the investigation to please stop ?
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Old 01-14-2020, 11:07 PM   #87
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I have a hard time thinking clear evidence or a player's active involvement would be seriously disputed by the union. They'd move on to try to negotiate a minimal penalty. I don't see this as being something that drags on for years.

As it is now with NO player being punished, EVERY Astros player is tainted by the scandal. That is hugely unfair for something that while maybe all the players knew about perhaps only a few actively participated in.

It isn't just about punishing the guilty. Its about clearing those against who there is insufficient or no evidence which can only be done by identifying the clearly guilty.

I think MLB could effectively present this to the union and show that while the union must give the best possible defense to the guilty it must also clear the innocent.
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Old 01-14-2020, 11:36 PM   #88
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And now Logan Morrison all over the press saying Yankees and Dodgers also cheating via sign stealing.
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Old 01-15-2020, 07:24 AM   #89
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And now Logan Morrison all over the press saying Yankees and Dodgers also cheating via sign stealing.
With these kind of scandals I always figure it's more likely that lots of teams were doing it, and the scandal team just got caught
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Old 01-15-2020, 07:45 AM   #90
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And now Logan Morrison all over the press saying Yankees and Dodgers also cheating via sign stealing.
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With these kind of scandals I always figure it's more likely that lots of teams were doing it, and the scandal team just got caught
Yep, it's like the steroids scandal... go after the ones that'll make the biggest news splash first, then go after the next tier, and so on. My bet is this sign-stealing scandal is not just an Astros/Red Sox/Cora thing, it's a league thing.
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Old 01-15-2020, 08:41 AM   #91
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Because I'm pedantic, I will point out that Hal Morris wasn't in Cincy when Rose managed.
It is hard to call someone pedantic when I was flat out wrong! Lol.
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Old 01-15-2020, 09:55 AM   #92
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I think Cora got what he deserved.

I take no pleasure in any man's demise but I cannot help to feel some satisfaction in this. Cora was the instigator and facilitator of this mess and he deserves his punishment.

I disagree with anybody in this thread who thinks such punishment that has been meted out so far, either by MLB or by teams, is excessive. A clear signal is finally being sent that cheating is NOT right and is NOT excusable. As in the steroid crisis, the integrity of the game is at stake. Otherwise it becomes a carnival con game.

Now, what about Carlos Beltran? "Carlos Beltran was the only player singled out in Major League Baseball’s exhaustive report involving the Astros’ sign-stealing scandal, but the new Mets manager avoided punishment." Why is that? A better question is, will the Mets follow the example of the Red Sox?

EDIT: Upon further reading, I see that it was Beltran who was the instigator while Cora was the facilitator, correcting what I said above. All the more reason, especially since Beltran lied about it on top of everything else.
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Old 01-15-2020, 10:20 AM   #93
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Speaking of cheating can one assume that all Astro players now, shall we say convicted, will be left off ballots for awards and the HoF?
An interesting question. Let's take Beltran, whom I just dumped on.

The answer would be no, he should not be disqualified from such recognition on the basis of this incident because he did not personally benefit from it over a significant span of his career. Same goes for any other Astros or Red Sox players.

That's as far as I can go toward meeting any cheating excusers. That is, in overlooking a moral flaw that allows players to cheat the game and their fellow players. Believe me, that is a stretch for me.

Anybody who thinks that is anachronistic preaching should put themselves in the shoes of the pitchers who would hear garbage can banging every time they threw a breaking ball.
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Old 01-15-2020, 11:35 AM   #94
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A strong possibility that the players were offered immunity for information.

It was players who first brought this to light. And unlike criminal trials where the prosecution's goal isn't to prevent crimes but is to convict someone, MLB is more concerned with trying to prevent this from happening in the future than it is in trying to satisfy the mob with their pitchforks. So, it makes sense to offer all the players immunity instead of getting some to rat out others.
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Old 01-15-2020, 11:43 AM   #95
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An interesting question. Let's take Beltran, whom I just dumped on.

The answer would be no, he should not be disqualified from such recognition on the basis of this incident because he did not personally benefit from it over a significant span of his career. Same goes for any other Astros or Red Sox players.

That's as far as I can go toward meeting any cheating excusers. That is, in overlooking a moral flaw that allows players to cheat the game and their fellow players. Believe me, that is a stretch for me.

Anybody who thinks that is anachronistic preaching should put themselves in the shoes of the pitchers who would hear garbage can banging every time they threw a breaking ball.
I wouldn't unilaterally disqualify players just like I think it's silly old man grandstanding to disqualify suspected steroid users when nearly the entire league was doing it.

However, if I was a voter I would give absolutely zero credit for "winning" that world series in my evaluation.
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Old 01-15-2020, 12:11 PM   #96
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As of now, I would say no to the HOF for the hitters. The pitchers, I'm not sure how the cheating would have affected their performance on the field. If someone had more info for me I would listen and factor that in. But if we knew they were banging the can to help the batters out, then no.
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Old 01-15-2020, 12:33 PM   #97
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As of now, I would say no to the HOF for the hitters. The pitchers, I'm not sure how the cheating would have affected their performance on the field. If someone had more info for me I would listen and factor that in. But if we knew they were banging the can to help the batters out, then no.
Mookie Betts has to be tainted too - right?
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Old 01-15-2020, 12:53 PM   #98
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The only Hall of Fame impact I expect to see from this would be an extended waiting period for these players to get voted in. I can easily see first ballot Hall of Famers waiting the max time. I don't see this impacting them eventually getting in like what the PED users are going through.
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Old 01-15-2020, 03:19 PM   #99
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As of now, I would say no to the HOF for the hitters. The pitchers, I'm not sure how the cheating would have affected their performance on the field. If someone had more info for me I would listen and factor that in. But if we knew they were banging the can to help the batters out, then no.
Didn't Trevor Bauer toss out some spin rate comments about Astro pitchers a ways back? Of course, Trevor and Cole aren't exactly best buds, dating back to their UCLA days.

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Old 01-15-2020, 03:28 PM   #100
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This just in. Rumors of Altuve hiding electronic vibrating devices under his uniform!!
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