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Old 01-13-2020, 04:54 PM   #21
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Until they return the trophy and all their rings and get lifetime bans, then it doesn't matter much.
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Old 01-13-2020, 04:54 PM   #22
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Commish Goodell has now been put on notice....................
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Old 01-13-2020, 05:24 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich View Post
Many involved in the Braves scandal received lifetime bans.

And I don’t remember that story getting 1/10 the coverage this one got.
One person, the Atlanta GM at the time. Atlanta paid out $16.4 million in bonuses to players who were made FA.
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Old 01-13-2020, 05:45 PM   #24
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One person, the Atlanta GM at the time. Atlanta paid out $16.4 million in bonuses to players who were made FA.
And they lost 13 prospects. That bit of stupidity probably set back the franchise a year or two even though they won the division this past season.

I would have to go back and read but I also think they got less money to use in the international prospect FA pool for a few years which further set them back.
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Old 01-13-2020, 06:01 PM   #25
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They are also talking Alex Cora Manager of Red Sox and Carlos Beltran Manager of the Mets

Does this rise to level of the "Black Sox Scandal " ? Is there a difference between cheating to win and cheating to lose ? Was gambling involved ? Does this taint Verlander ? Cole ? Other players ?

Is it possible in today's game to simply ban all players from baseball ? as MLB did to the White Sox organization .
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Old 01-13-2020, 06:25 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by GeoWar View Post
They are also talking Joey Cora Manager of Red Sox and Carlos Beltran Manager of the Mets

Does this rise to level of the "Black Sox Scandal " ? Is there a difference between cheating to win and cheating to lose ? Was gambling involved ? Does this taint Verlander ? Cole ? Other players ?

Is it possible in today's game to simply ban all players from baseball ? as MLB did to the White Sox organization .
Seems like it isn't possible to do much against the players anymore as long as the MLB union is around. I guess players can do what they want in this instance?
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Old 01-13-2020, 06:36 PM   #27
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Have any players been specifically associated with this?
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Old 01-13-2020, 06:45 PM   #28
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They should have been forced to send Verlander home to Detroit.
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Old 01-13-2020, 06:51 PM   #29
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How does the logistics in this whole thing work? There is a device in CF that reads the catcher's sign to the pitcher, then relays that to the batter?
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Old 01-13-2020, 06:57 PM   #30
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"Have any players been specifically associated with this?"


I get the feeling MLB is afraid to out any players. Too scared of the Union sadly.
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Old 01-13-2020, 07:02 PM   #31
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First I'm a bit surprised anything happened. In another thread I said as much maybe a week or so back. As for the penalties I don't really know what else they could have done? This was an organizational issue. Yes players were clearly involved, but when people are put in leadership positions and fail to lead, they have to be among the first to go.

Careers are potentially ruined. Who would hire Luhnow now? Hinch is probably done as a manager now. Cora is probably packing his bags as I type. Then the Astros lose their first and second round picks for 2 straight years. I don't know why people do not think that is a bigger deal than it is? Do people just trade these picks away in their online leagues? I would bet not, so it is probably a lot more detrimental in real life to a real organization. As for people wanting them to take away the rings that gets really hard to do. How do stats change? Do people really stop thinking said team won? They do this in college basketball and nobody cares. They still considered whoever won that year the champion whether the banner are in the rafters or not.

What I imagine happens now is that individual player penalties will be negotiated into the next CBA. If they went after a player now the union will fight that tooth and nail. Look how long it took to penalize all the roid heads. I know 80's baseball is sacred to many (myself included) but that is probably the decade where that really began and it wasn't really punished till much later.
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Old 01-13-2020, 07:06 PM   #32
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Have any players been specifically associated with this?
Beltran was the only player named IIRC. And certain people have intimated he was one if not the one player who spearheaded it.

The report touched upon basically every Astros player had some involvement or knowledge of it, but even after the investigation it would be difficult to say for certain the level of culpability to each player.

Which I can understand, even if I don't like.
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Old 01-13-2020, 07:13 PM   #33
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Considering they got a championship out of it they'll probably take that punishment 7 days a week. #worthit

Let's say it that way: this punishment surely won't stop other teams from trying to do the same if this is all they'll have to face in a worst case scenario. It's just a slap on the wrist. A lot of times it was players whistling or banging and yet not even a single player was punished? What a joke.

The funniest thing is that Verlander - who is so religiously obsessed with integrity of the game - is part of that team. Good job, dude
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Old 01-13-2020, 07:31 PM   #34
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The funniest thing is that Verlander - who is so religiously obsessed with integrity of the game - is part of that team. Good job, dude
Don't forget Brian McCann
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Old 01-13-2020, 07:40 PM   #35
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First I'm a bit surprised anything happened. In another thread I said as much maybe a week or so back. As for the penalties I don't really know what else they could have done? This was an organizational issue. Yes players were clearly involved, but when people are put in leadership positions and fail to lead, they have to be among the first to go.

Careers are potentially ruined. Who would hire Luhnow now? Hinch is probably done as a manager now. Cora is probably packing his bags as I type. Then the Astros lose their first and second round picks for 2 straight years. I don't know why people do not think that is a bigger deal than it is? Do people just trade these picks away in their online leagues? I would bet not, so it is probably a lot more detrimental in real life to a real organization. As for people wanting them to take away the rings that gets really hard to do. How do stats change? Do people really stop thinking said team won? They do this in college basketball and nobody cares. They still considered whoever won that year the champion whether the banner are in the rafters or not.
Taking the rings may not do much, but it does something. Everyone, including myself (everyone knows how much I despise him), think of Pete Rose as having had a HOF type career. But do you think it still doesn't eat at Pete Rose knowing he can't get into Cooperstown? Look at Jimmy Johnson's reaction yesterday to hearing the news he was going to Canton and answer that question. Memory is nice. Acknowledgement is nicer. It still eats at the Fab 5 to have their history "erased".

This is especially so since the MLB says the players initiated it and continued it despite Hinch voicing his benign disapproval. Not punishing the players sends the wrong message. Who wouldn't risk breaking the law if they weren't going to feel the discipline? I see no discouragement here to cheating again. Just a "warning" to be more careful next time.
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Old 01-13-2020, 07:47 PM   #36
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Taking the rings may not do much, but it does something. Everyone, including myself (everyone knows how much I despise him), think of Pete Rose as having had a HOF type career. But do you think it still doesn't eat at Pete Rose knowing he can't get into Cooperstown? Look at Jimmy Johnson's reaction yesterday to hearing the news he was going to Canton and answer that question. Memory is nice. Acknowledgement is nicer. It still eats at the Fab 5 to have their history "erased".

This is especially so since the MLB says the players initiated it and continued it despite Hinch voicing his benign disapproval. Not punishing the players sends the wrong message. Who wouldn't risk breaking the law if they weren't going to feel the discipline? I see no discouragement here to cheating again. Just a "warning" to be more careful next time.
I'm not saying at all that the players shouldn't be punished. I was trying to make the point that I think baseball did pretty much all it could in the current climate. (Didn't they put the banners back up at Michigan?) I do see your point though.
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Old 01-13-2020, 07:55 PM   #37
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I'm not saying at all that the players shouldn't be punished. I was trying to make the point that I think baseball did pretty much all it could in the current climate. (Didn't they put the banners back up at Michigan?) I do see your point though.
I get ya. I only depart @ "they did all they could". I operate more on horse sense than law. So you could be right. But as I've said up here before "your commitment to discourage bad conduct is measured by your willingness to punish it." If MLB is serious about preventing this from happening again then the potential legal fight that might ensue is worth it to set the precedent for the future. The business of competition only survives if the consumer can reasonably assume that the contestants are all playing on a level field.
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Old 01-13-2020, 08:02 PM   #38
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This is in Baseball's statement --- I think that MLB is more more worried about Fan, media and other World leagues response to actions .... In the "Black Sox" scandal it was simply all players a life time ban .

“Assessing discipline of players for this type of conduct is both difficult and impractical,” Manfred wrote. “It is difficult because virtually all of the Astros’ players had some involvement or knowledge of the scheme, and I am not in a position based on the investigative record to determine with any degree of certainty every player who should be held accountable, or their relative degree of culpability. It is impractical given the large number of players involved, and the fact that many of those players now play for other Clubs.”

And YET many want more cameras and tech in the game (???) .
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Old 01-13-2020, 08:33 PM   #39
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“Assessing discipline of players for this type of conduct is both difficult and impractical,” Manfred wrote. “It is difficult because virtually all of the Astros’ players had some involvement or knowledge of the scheme, and I am not in a position based on the investigative record to determine with any degree of certainty every player who should be held accountable, or their relative degree of culpability. It is impractical given the large number of players involved, and the fact that many of those players now play for other Clubs.”
I find the MLB's statement to be a cop out.
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Old 01-13-2020, 11:29 PM   #40
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I find the MLB's statement to be a cop out.
Abso-freaking-lutely. Complete cop-out.

Lesson to players: If you're gonna try something this again, keep it on the down-low, especially from the coaches and management.

Lesson to coaches & front office: Make sure the players know that we don't want to hear anything about any techno-cheating. Empahsis on "we don't want to hear..." Wink, wink.
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