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Old 01-20-2020, 01:26 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Brad K View Post
It is most evident in the home run video Altuve has something to hide. Could be anything.

For example, say he got a new tatoo and wants to surprise his wife with in private, not having her see it in public first.

Maybe despite her nagging he was wearing a dirty undershirt.

Maybe he has some wounds from the professional dominatrix he visited the day before.

Or maybe he's wearing a communication device that tells him what pitch is coming.

While I don't consider the video proof, I challenge someone to come up with a more reasonable explanation than hiding a communication device.
It could be he was telling the truth. Its just the fact the Astros were caught using trashcans and its not a normal reaction after hitting a game winning home run. Plus the stats away vs home. If the trash cans had not happened then i might still have my doubts but i could believe him a little bit more than i do now. However i am not the commish so my opinion like everyone else's doesn't matter.
It may be a catch 22 season for Altuve. If he has a great season people may wonder if he is cheating by another method. If he doesn't have a good season then it may be that he was cheating all along.
I tend to think that if he just has a good season then maybe he didnt cheat. I cant see him being stupid enough to try cheating this year regardless of whether he did or didn't cheat in 2019.
If he has a poor season then it will probably make my doubts that he is telling the truth even stronger. Though it could be due to an injury that only he knows.
I just hope we dont have to call to call TSA to do airport security checks at home plate.
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Old 01-20-2020, 08:05 AM   #202
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IDK how any fan could so vehemently object to a cheating accusation against the Astros. The Astros have used up any benefit of the doubt they were formerly entitled to. I don't believe the words that are coming out of their mouths.
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Old 01-20-2020, 01:39 PM   #203
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IDK how any fan could so vehemently object to a cheating accusation against the Astros. The Astros have used up any benefit of the doubt they were formerly entitled to. I don't believe the words that are coming out of their mouths.
Right now I have to agree with you.
I dont know if it's just that they cant believe they would be caught, that player's association would protect them, that they are innocent, or they just dont care.
It's pretty much a case of moving on from having doubts that they are guilty to how baseball can deter or prevent this from happening in the future.
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Old 01-20-2020, 03:54 PM   #204
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I think it is because, like in our personal relationships, you don't believe a person is sorry for what they did until they admit and ask forgiveness for what they did. If they can't acknowledge the act, if they can't acknowledge the hurt caused, then how can you not conclude the only thing they regret is getting caught? That is what is of utmost importance to them. And if so, you know they are not likely to be truthful in the future. Cause again, their main issue is not being exposed. Until Altuve and the Astros come completely clean and show sincere remorse, anything they say will always be greeted by me with a little side eye.
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Old 01-20-2020, 06:05 PM   #205
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Did he though? An accusation does not equal guilt. I've haven't read anywhere that he has been caught. But I have read the MLB say that no body worn devices were discovered.
Is this the same MLB who said this was a player-driven scandall but didn't suspend any players?

They've been trying to make this go away for the players since day one.
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Old 01-20-2020, 08:44 PM   #206
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Just in case some of us didnt know about this chapter in baseball cheating history...

https://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/01/s...ole-signs.html
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Old 01-20-2020, 10:13 PM   #207
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Looks like a subscription is required to read that article my edit of the highlights is below:


For nearly half a century since Bobby Thomson hit the home run that won the 1951 National League pennant for the New York Giants, Ralph Branca, the Brooklyn Dodgers right-hander who threw that fastball, has known that the Giants were using a high-powered telescope and a buzzer system late that season at the Polo Grounds to alert their batters to the next pitch. ''I've known it since 1954, but I never said anything,'' Branca said last night. ''I didn't want to cry over spilled milk. I became friendly with Bobby and I didn't want to demean his home run. I didn't want to cheapen a legendary moment in baseball.'' Yesterday in The Wall Street Journal, which reported the sign stealing, several '51 Giants acknowledged the presence of a telescope that was perched behind a window in Manager Leo Durocher's office in the center-field clubhouse and the buzzer system connected to the Giants' dugout and right-field bullpen.When Thomson was asked if he knew that Branca would throw a fastball that he drilled into the lower left-field stands for a three-run homer and a 5-4 victory in the decisive third game of the N.L. playoff, he hedged, but finally said: ''My answer is no. I was always proud of that swing.
Sign stealing is one of baseball's oldest dirty tricks, but it seldom surfaces.
Yvars has told how he sat at the end of the bullpen bench next to the buzzer. In the system installed by the Polo Grounds electrician, one buzz meant that the spotter, perched behind the telescope (that Coach Herman Franks had suggested to Durocher) had stolen the sign for a breaking ball. No buzz meant a fastball.
''Watch me in the bullpen,'' Yvars told his teammates. ''I'll have a baseball in my hand. If I hold onto the ball, it's a fastball. If I toss the ball in the air, it's a breaking ball.''
''I threw him another good fastball, up and in, and he hit it,'' Branca recalled. ''I don't know if he knew it was coming, but even if he did, you can't always hit it. At home run-hitting contests, they know what's coming and they'll still pop it up.'
''I wasn't going to bring it up to Bobby,'' Branca said. ''To me, it was a forbidden subject. Dressen lost the pennant for us, not that game. He wore out our pitching staff trying to outsmart Durocher. Sal told me they stole signs on the road too. Everywhere but Brooklyn. Sal told me they didn't dare try to steal 'em in Ebbets Field, because if they ever got discovered there, the fans would've killed 'em.''
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Old 01-20-2020, 10:20 PM   #208
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IDK how any fan could so vehemently object to a cheating accusation against the Astros. The Astros have used up any benefit of the doubt they were formerly entitled to. I don't believe the words that are coming out of their mouths.
The Astros fans denying the Altuve video means anything aren't any different from what you say about the videos of the Immaculate Reception.
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Old 01-21-2020, 12:00 AM   #209
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The Astros fans denying the Altuve video means anything aren't any different from what you say about the videos of the Immaculate Reception.
I'm sure you made a point. I just don't see it. I don't blame Astros fans for believing in Altuve. What I don't get is why they are surprised everyone else doesn't. I don't think the Raiders or Steelers fans are shocked the other side feels differently.
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Old 01-21-2020, 12:21 AM   #210
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I'm sure you made a point. I just don't see it. I don't blame Astros fans for believing in Altuve. What I don't get is why they are surprised everyone else doesn't. I don't think the Raiders or Steelers fans are shocked the other side feels differently.
Yes, I did make a point.

Here you say you don't blame Astros fans for believing in Altuve. But previously you posted (emphasis added) "IDK how any fan could so vehemently object to a cheating accusation against the Astros"

Clearly directed at Astros fans who dismiss the video... as you dismiss the video of the Immaculate Reception.
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Old 01-21-2020, 12:54 AM   #211
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Yes, I did make a point.

Here you say you don't blame Astros fans for believing in Altuve. But previously you posted (emphasis added) "IDK how any fan could so vehemently object to a cheating accusation against the Astros"

Clearly directed at Astros fans who dismiss the video... as you dismiss the video of the Immaculate Reception.
You're imagining things and there is no contradiction. I'm not surprised Astros fans believe Altuve. I am surprised they are indignant that someone else doesn't. Nothing I said contradicts that.

And I never dismissed the video of the Reception. I reject anyone claiming there was anything conclusive in the videos as to whether there was a legit catch. Once more, no contradiction.
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Old 01-21-2020, 02:38 AM   #212
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The video shows the ball hit Tatum. The physics calculation shows the ball hit Tatum. That's conclusive. The ball might have hit Fuqua, but nothing shows it. Its just a theory. A might be with no support. That is not nothing conclusive either was as you say. All the evidence available says the ball hit Tatum. None of it says the ball hit Fuqua.

You think Altuve's actions are suspicious. But you disregard the Raiders spontaneous actions of chasing Harris as anything significant. Yea, that's what they are trained to do by following training despite what is observed requires thought and a delay while the Raiders reaction was immediate, based on what they saw, not training.

Baseball Man has said he's entitled to his opinion even absent facts to support it. Do you believe worse than that you are entitled to your own facts?
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Old 01-21-2020, 07:47 AM   #213
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The video shows the ball hit Tatum. The physics calculation shows the ball hit Tatum. That's conclusive. The ball might have hit Fuqua, but nothing shows it. Its just a theory. A might be with no support. That is not nothing conclusive either was as you say. All the evidence available says the ball hit Tatum. None of it says the ball hit Fuqua.

You think Altuve's actions are suspicious. But you disregard the Raiders spontaneous actions of chasing Harris as anything significant. Yea, that's what they are trained to do by following training despite what is observed requires thought and a delay while the Raiders reaction was immediate, based on what they saw, not training.

Baseball Man has said he's entitled to his opinion even absent facts to support it. Do you believe worse than that you are entitled to your own facts?
Show me the picture that shows Harris catching the ball before it hit the ground. Every other piece of evidence you bring up in that thread is circumstantial. And, you know what? I;m not going to continue it. Because it changes the topic in this thread. And I'm not going to derail it further.
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Old 01-21-2020, 03:23 PM   #214
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"Show me the picture that shows Harris catching the ball before it hit the ground."

Show me the picture of Altuve with his buzzer.

Back on topic!!!!

Last edited by Brad K; 01-21-2020 at 07:34 PM.
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Old 01-22-2020, 01:03 PM   #215
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Yes, the players were granted immunity

Jared Diamond
https://www.wsj.com/articles/astros-...al-11579694400

Quote:
The league and the MLB Players Association struck an agreement early in the process that granted immunity in exchange for honest testimony
...
The league was quick to make such an offer, these people said, in part because it did not believe it would win subsequent grievances with any players it attempted to discipline.
The reason, according to Diamond's article, is that the Astros' management never discussed commissioner Manfred's 2017 memo regarding use of technology (which explicitly stated that GM's and managers would be held accountable) with the players and since the Astros management was part of the sign stealing scheme the players would not be aware of the gravity of the offense. Especially since it was, apparently, condoned by management.
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Old 01-22-2020, 03:58 PM   #216
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Yes, the players were granted immunity

Jared Diamond
https://www.wsj.com/articles/astros-...al-11579694400



The reason, according to Diamond's article, is that the Astros' management never discussed commissioner Manfred's 2017 memo regarding use of technology (which explicitly stated that GM's and managers would be held accountable) with the players and since the Astros management was part of the sign stealing scheme the players would not be aware of the gravity of the offense. Especially since it was, apparently, condoned by management.
I do not follow - if you go back to the Red Sox - Yankees series in September 2017 -- the complaint and issue was Tech ( Apple Watches ) so MLB must have taken some action though not publicly . Players stopped wearing the watches and after the 2017 season the Red Sox fired their Manager ( think John Ferrell ) after making the Playoffs. So the players and management knew the use of Tech was a BIG NO-NO ..

MLB needs to monitor and get a hand on the use of cameras and tech ...... the game reputation and standing is at stake . To h_ _ _ with media and camera angles till this is controlled and the true fan can be assured that the game is fair .

Players need to be held accountable . Just because your boss tells you to go steal something does not take away your responsiblity.
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Old 01-22-2020, 04:06 PM   #217
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"Just because your boss tells you to go steal something does not take away your responsiblity."

Not always. Because of the power imbalance between employee and manager and the effect on the employee of refusal to obey (career damage) in some cases following orders is a valid defense.
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Old 01-22-2020, 04:12 PM   #218
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"just because your boss tells you to go steal something does not take away your responsiblity."

not always. Because of the power imbalance between employee and manager and the effect on the employee of refusal to obey (career damage) in some cases following orders is a valid defense.
really !
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Old 01-22-2020, 07:11 PM   #219
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"Just because your boss tells you to go steal something does not take away your responsiblity."

Not always. Because of the power imbalance between employee and manager and the effect on the employee of refusal to obey (career damage) in some cases following orders is a valid defense.
Venn Diagram: "The players must be punished!" people and "Mike Fiers will never work again" people.
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Old 01-28-2020, 12:29 PM   #220
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Hiring Dusty Baker as manager must be considered punishment, yes?

https://www.mlb.com/news/dusty-baker-astros
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