Great suggestion about status of new features and bugs

[Night2000]

I think OOTP is one fine game. I've known about it since version 1 and didn't purchase it until version 3. While I enjoyed the game a lot. I also came from a background where I played the board games APBA, Be a Manager, Strat, and even that ALL-Star baseball game that used a spinner. LOL... Pete Rose had some fat 7's in that game. Most of those games were great for the realistic way the games played out. You actually felt like a game of baseball was being played. However those games lacked what your game provided. a "Fictional Baseball Universe." Where players age, and retire, and new players appear. Thus allowing us to live out the fantasy of having our own baseball universe where we are manager, owners, and all the good stuff that goes with it.

However the one thing that OOTP is lacking in my opinion, is that feeling of playing out a real game. I recognized that right away after playing out a season or two in OOTP3. I always figured well since this is a text baseball game. I'm sure the game will evolve where the game will play out more like the real thing. The news stories will be more interactive, to the point where it would feel like your reading the sports section of a newspaper. I saw certain managerial options missing from the game. No need to re-hash what they are since many of these things have been posted to death.

I figured we would have customised reports so us stat heads could create our own special way of saving the stats that we felt were important to our universe. There are some great guys here who have created fantastic 3rd party utilities to help us out with that too. However I can't understand why having customised reports have been overlooked. Strat had them way back during Dos 5. Playaction Baseball has it. Is it because of the way the gaming engine was designed that we lack some of these things I mention above?

The limitations on certain stats rolling over, or players only having their 1st 25 years recorded is another biggie. Yeah sure we all know, as it's been explained that the database would become much larger and thus take up more room on the hard drive and slow the simulation down. However this is 2004. Hard Drives are bigger, computers are faster, and technology moves on. As with the evolution with *ALL* games specs to play them get higher. Sooner or later, we have to upgrade whether we like it or not. Otherwise we are left with obsolete systems. Since this is a career sim. Not everyone plays this game by the rules. Some will want to play more than a 162 games. I'm not one of them. Some will want to adjust the league settings for more offense. Which will cause problems when they reach that rollover. Look how many people use BOSI? Some people saving many seasons say their stats take up like 1 gig of hard drive space or more.

Yes, your point about making decisions of what goes in, and what doesn't. Or getting excited about adding certain things, and then realizing it was harder then you thought is understood. However you also have to realize that you will never have time to finish and make sure things already added are working correctly, if you keep adding more things. Eventually there will come a breaking point. Where everything will go to hell, if neglected.

The bottom line is this game is very good, even though things need to be fixed and tweaked. It still stands out as a *Great* career baseball game. If you want the game to evolve as simply the *Greatest Baseball Game* then whatever is already in this game should work as it was intended to. Options and features that are just there and are just for cosmetic appearances should be removed. After all what's the point? The one thing that keeps OOTP from reaching the acclaim of the baseball community is the rep it has for not playing out the games realistically.

That is *Always* the main arguement from the Diamond Mine, Strat, and APBA community. If you could somehow finally address this part of the game, then those other games will pale in comparison. For some reason they seem to be afraid to take the plunge and try to create a career simulation like you have. Of course the Console world is another story. Believe it or not they are making great strides, in the way games play out. The career gameplay is becoming better. They still have a ways to go as far as the accuracy of a text baseball game, but they are getting there.

[Cooker]

Markus' post confirms what I knew all along. He does OOTP because he loves baseball and also loves creating games. (It's great having a job you love!) Keep at it, Markus! We love OOTP.

All that's being proposed by those posting is a sticky thread on the main board that gives monthly (or other periodic) updates on "Potential New and Improved OOTP Features."

It could be as simple as this (note - this is only an example - obviously I have no way of knowing the truth!!!):

"Enhanced PBP - I know many of you are frustrated, but due to other priorities this just isn't going to happen in the near future."

"Financial CoEffecient - Coding complexity makes this unlikely to appear in either this or the next version of the game."

"H2H - Expect it to be completed within the next month."

"Pinch-hitting for DH Bug - this has been reported and should be an easy fix to code; expect it to be corrected in the near term."

You get the idea. Short updates. It may frustrate some who will see they won't be getting what they want anytime soon. But at least everyone will know where they stand.

I once read an article by a psychologist who said that in any organization people don't really care that much whether or not they can control outcome. But they do deeply care whether or not they've been heard. A sticky thread with a monthly update from Markus along the lines illustrated above might let people know they've been heard (even if they can't control outcome).

[dougaiton]

Originally posted by Markus Heinsohn

I really enjoy this, but from my perspective it sometimes creates problems as well. See, I try to add as much as possible to the game, and fix as many problems as I can. But every now and then I mention that a certain feature (most of the time it's something I am really excited about) will make it into the release version, and then for various reason I wasn't able to do it. Many times the reason is just simply lack of time (H2H), or simply that it would be way too complicated to put the feature in so that the cons outweight the pros (financial coefficient). Sure, I have to agree that this doesn't seem like a viable business practice, but hey, I still do not see this as 100% business. I do all this because I love baseball and I love to make games... that's why I sometimes get over-excited and 'promise' a feature that doesn't make it into the game in the end. By no means is this intended to lure customers into (pre)ordering. Heck, those who know me would say that I'm the last person that'd have something like that in mind...

Markus,

Thanks for your point of view. It is appreciated.

In this case, I think that OOTPD needs to make a distinction thought between what you say on the boards (I am working on x, y, z), and what is sent out in official OOTPD newsletters. These go out to people who don't frequent the boards often, and perhaps don't realise this.

As EagleEye pointed out early, its an issue of cause and effect. Of course you don't mean to mis-sell the product, but in practical terms, you can see why people would believe that the product has been mis-sold. I bought a product on ebay recently that pertained to be something it was not. The seller replied that she did not know that the item did not represent the whole series that she thought it did. Nonetheless, I returned it - it made no difference to me, the consumer - all that I saw was an incomplete product.

We would never judge you personally on anything in the games. The dedication you guys (and that's including Henry, Steve, Andreas etc. etc.) you have put in since OOTP1 has been amazing. But lines must be drawn between product and person, and when potential features are going out in company newsletters as actual features, that's a real problem. I understand that to yourself it's still a labour of love, but to the consumer, it isn't, especially when you introduce pre-ordering.

Once again, you have made the best sim on the market, and you have remained remarkably dedicated to it, and put in more than enough time (especially on OOTP5 and 4, working products that you continued to improve). It's just that consumers take company press releases as gospel - that's just the way it is.

[kq76]

I must say I'm almost always impressed by whatever Markus says, and this is another case of that. However, like the others have said, possible and definite features really need to be labeled as such. It is especially needed on pages where the game is offered for sale, but it would also be good just on the boards where the merits of possible features are being discussed. It would not only allow customers to know exactly what they're buying, but it would also prevent any arguments over what they were promised. Maybe all features should be labeled as possible until they're definitely working correctly. That would probably create problems with pre-ordering before the game is finished, but then maybe the pre-order should not start until enough features can be promised.

EDIT: As an example, H2H is still listed as being in the game when it is not: https://www.elicense.com/ootpdevelopments/store/

And still at:
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/newsletters/nl0008/

But I see that in some places they're getting better at labeling by listing H2H as "coming soon": http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/ootp/features.php

Another recent example is the download.com labeling of a free trial, which we saw Steve ask Andreas to correct.

The important point though is that if you label things correctly, these unfortunate disagreements should occur much less and you'll instead reap the benefits of more positive and constructive communication.

[TigerGDK]

It the most frustration I have witnessed in my two years on this board. And it doesn't seem to come only from the malcontents, but the reasonable core customers, too.

[

Reason for this: We (the OOTB community in particular) have been spoilt (spoiled?) from a history of a close relationship with Markus. (Same thing goes on in the CM forums often --- where a similar relationship exists). The problem is, with each new version, the game gets more in-depth, more complicated --- the programming gets subsequently more involved. Markus has shown us over the course of many years that he listens --- even if he does not speak. We need to sit back, take a breath, and enjoy what we have. Sending (usually the same) requests over...and over...and over again is not going to do anything...except create more work for those that are responsible for getting the information to Markus about bugs/feature requests/whatever.

I've seen it over and over (and I'll take your word for it, OOTP is the only BB sim I play) -- OOTPx is only the best ([edit: in some opinions]) baseball sim available. If you don't like it, you have the choice: Play as is or quit. The community has obviously grown, and many people are enjoying the game, and will continue to do for...as long as they enjoy it. New players will find and come to love the game, while old timers will find something else to catch their attention. It is the way of things.

Everyone knows there are bugs --- some greater, some lesser. They have been reported hundreds of times usually. Everyone knows there are feature requests (some long-standing). Either they will make it into the game, or they won't. Either way, it won't change the fact that, until someone writes one (any of you complainers actually programmers? Try it some day -- maybe *you* will beable to write a game that satisfies....you), this is arguably the best baseball sim out there.

Give Markus a break. He has proven his loyalty to us for many years.

[sixto]

As is the case with any small business, success is dependent upon understanding demand. You can't create demand that isn't there. So many companies have gone under, because their business model was "I'll create a product so great people won't be able to help but buy it because it's so great."

In the case of baseball sims, the universe of prospective buyers is decidedly finite. It consists of people like us. It is simply not possible to get an accurate sense of the demand without listening to people like us.

This message board is free, continuous market research. It would cost a company more than $20,000, and probably more than $100,000 a year, to get this kind of market research. And we provide it for free.

Anyone who suggests even for a nanosecond, that this message board is for US, is a fool. This message board is for the company. It's an invaluable tool for understanding the customer base - the kind of tool that every company in the world would kill to have.

It would appear that the passion of OOTP's fans - long considered a strength, I think - is now considered a burden. Is that SI's influence? I don't know. Because, I mean, what else has changed from last year to this? It's at least a theory.

Another theory is that, just like a television series, OOTP6 was one of the "weaker episodes." Even Seinfeld or Cheers sometimes laid an egg every so often. Maybe OOTP6 was less well developed, so that OOTP7 can be gangbusters. That's certainly a worthy theory.

Could we all use to take a step back? Probably, yeah. But feedback comes in all shapes and sizes, and IMO stronger moderation - not locked threads but controlled forums - would improve the lines of communications without antagonism.

I'm glad OOTP is fun for Markus but I had to work an hour or two to pay for OOTP and that wasn't all that fun. There are a lot of long-term devotees of the game who have been vocal this year and unfortunately, their comments are being lumped in with any newbie off the street. Well, I don't run the PR dept of OOTPD so I have no say, but IMO, that is a very odd strategy.

[Eugene Church]

Originally posted by Markus Heinsohn

Many times the reason is just simply lack of time (H2H), or simply that it would be way too complicated to put the feature in so that the cons outweight the pros (financial coefficient).

Also, some vocal members of this board have sometimes a certain feature in mind that they want to see added, and keep complaining that it doesn't get implemented. But see, I have to decide what features are worth the time and effort to code them, and in some cases I have to decide against it. That's the life of a developer I guess...

Markus, thank you very much for replying to this thread.

Communication is very important.

Most of us just want a Monthly Report from you giving the status of each of the issues, features (old and new), bugs, etc.

You have told us that HTH will be coming in an update.
You have told us that Financial Coefficient is not possible.

We have been informed of these things and most of the reasonable Forum members accept this.

It is the unanswered things that frustrate us.
My most wanted item in the game is a basic realistic baseball game to play out, complete with play results and strategies.

If you tell me this is not possible or not likely...that is fine. I will know that this is the way the game is going to be and I will accept it and have no expectations of it...and not be frustrated or disappointed in OOTP7.

A Monthly Report would really, really please a lot of your customers.

I hope you will seriously consider it.

Thanks again for the response...Thanks for your great dedication to OOTPB...and Thanks for a great career baseball simulation...When it has all of the basic plays and strategies in it, I will thank you for a great baseball game. too.

[DiMaggio5CF]

Originally posted by Markus Heinsohn
I really enjoy this, but from my perspective it sometimes creates problems as well. See, I try to add as much as possible to the game, and fix as many problems as I can. But every now and then I mention that a certain feature (most of the time it's something I am really excited about) will make it into the release version, and then for various reason I wasn't able to do it. Many times the reason is just simply lack of time (H2H), or simply that it would be way too complicated to put the feature in so that the cons outweight the pros (financial coefficient). Sure, I have to agree that this doesn't seem like a viable business practice, but hey, I still do not see this as 100% business. I do all this because I love baseball and I love to make games... that's why I sometimes get over-excited and 'promise' a feature that doesn't make it into the game in the end. By no means is this intended to lure customers into (pre)ordering. Heck, those who know me would say that I'm the last person that'd have something like that in mind...

Maybe you don't view it as a business because you're the one getting the money from the game, not the one paying for it. It's wonderful to view it as a hobby when you're collecting, but it's not acceptable when you're paying.

If you're doing it as a hobby, for the love of the game, and not as a business, then give it to us for free and feel completely free to add or leave out anything that you want. If you don't view it as a business, then don't treat as one by charging us for it. But as long as we're paying for the game, it should come as advertised. Your overzealousness is no excuse for promising what you can't deliver when we're paying for a game that includes those promised features.

You don't view OOTP completely as a business, but when you charge people for it, it is a business; and part of being a business is customer satisfaction. You may love OOTP6, Markus, but your customers aren't happy.

[SoxWin]

Originally posted by sporr
If I were Markus, I would only reveal new features when they had already been implemented and tested. That way nobody would have expectations that were too high. It would be fine if he said that he would "try" to implement certain features, but if I were him I wouldn't make any promises unless they were already programmed and working.

So you've taken marketing 101 too. Common sense at last.

Do NOT promise unless you can deliver, it's pretty straightforward and leads to far less upset customers.

Edit.

Markus, I greatly admire your ability to code and sure wish I could (then I'd get the game I wanted come hell or high water ) This should be self evident since I've bought every version since v2.

However, as Dimaggio stated above, you're well past the point of a hobby here. I venture to say OOTP has provided most, if not all, of your personal income for at least 3 or 4 years now. This is a business and hopefully you see it as such and not just a hobby because you love baseball.

Just my $0.02

[Night2000]

Well this will probably be my last post in this thread. I see things a little different. What I'm seeing is Markus saying as nicely as he can. That we the customers have a board to sound off on, but sometimes we go too far. Especially the more vocal people. I don't feel like getting his quote. It should just be re-read for those who aren't reading between the lines.

He also mentions that the more vocal people have been asking for features from past versions and are upset when they don't get it. That he doesn't sometimes have the time to add them. Here's one example I recall him saying back during OOTP3 that the News stories would be worked on. So are we to believe that 3 versions, and 3 years later he still didn't have the time to do this? Or for that matter other things that have been neglected far too long?

Yeah you will never have time as long as you keep adding stuff every new version. Figuring that you can just add the other stuff promised, later on in a patch or big update. It's obvious to me and I think some of you, that we are starting to see that our opinions are not as valued, or as important as we were first led to believe, when these boards opened up.

I especially like the way some of us are labeled the more "Vocal ones." more like the unhappy apples in the cart. Well this will be my final point on this.

Markus should have the decency to at least tell us *Exactly* what he will have in the next version. Before it is put out. This way we can evaluate for ourselves, if we want to buy the next version or not. Don't promise the world, and have everyone thinking that certain features will be added. Then after we purchase the next version, finally get the news that sadly they won't be included in the current version.

In other words have the decency to keep your customers informed to what they can expect from the coming version. This way if I see that the stuff I feel is missing from this game won't be added this year, next year or 10 years from now. Then I can choose not to purchase. We all as loyal customers should have the info we need to make the decision to either buy, or not buy.

This stringing the customer along crap has got to stop. Let us know exactly what will be in the coming versions *Before* we shell out our money. Of course if you look at it from a business stand point. Being this honest could lose potential customers. However I've always believed Markus to be a really decent guy. So take the chance in the future, and be honest with your loyal and new customers.

[Treches]

Originally posted by TigerGDK
Reason for this: We (the OOTB community in particular) have been spoilt (spoiled?) from a history of a close relationship with Markus. (Same thing goes on in the CM forums often --- where a similar relationship exists). The problem is, with each new version, the game gets more in-depth, more complicated --- the programming gets subsequently more involved. Markus has shown us over the course of many years that he listens --- even if he does not speak. We need to sit back, take a breath, and enjoy what we have. Sending (usually the same) requests over...and over...and over again is not going to do anything...except create more work for those that are responsible for getting the information to Markus about bugs/feature requests/whatever.

See, I don't know if OOTP customers are spoiled due to Markus' approach over the years. I'll give you that. However, that could certainly be said about Markus as well, given most of his customers (especially old-timers) have been more than willing to overlook some serious and recurrent flaws, and still be quite understanding and keep on purchasing the game.

The game has gotten more complex and in-depth than it was, so coding is more involved at this point, no doubt. Nevertheless, there's where the problems start, in my opinion. Whereas the game gets deeper and customers increase, the working philosophy remains pretty much the same. That philosophy worked for V1 to V3, but not now. It's not a matter of working more, but working better. That's one of reasons I think the merger was a great move by Markus, as SI, albeit not a huge company, will put an end to the disorganization, miscomunication and sometimes blunderism. Hope that doesn't wait until V7, though. I want to believe that Markus' remark about not seeing this "as 100% business" is due to his work being fun and not because he doesn't realize this is obviously 100% business. Otherwise, it'd be a severe case of business myopia.

Anyway, like sixto, I too am of the opinion that lately seems that the passion of customers is considered a burden. To me, the forum has definitely lost importance these days, and looks that feedback is only taken in mind if it's posted on the main board and comes with a revolt attached.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by Treches
customers (especially old-timers) have been more than willing to overlook some serious and recurrent flaws, and still be quite understanding and keep on purchasing the game.

Very true.

Anyway, like sixto, I too am of the opinion that lately seems that the passion of customers is considered a burden.

Yes, indeed; only the passion of satisfied customers is well received. The passion of unsatisfied customers is clearly unwanted. Since the last poll that I saw on OOTP6 said thay 40% to 45% of the responders were unsatisifed with OOTP6, then either the board's attiude about unsatisfied customers has to change or there will continue to be conflict - and eventually, the unsatisifed customers will have to revolt/leave or just suffer on in silence.

feedback is only taken in mind if it's posted on the main board and comes with a revolt attached.

Sad but apparently quite true.

[Malleus Dei]

Are OOTP customers spoiled? I don't think so; DMB customers used to be able to (and may still be able to, I haven't tried lately) pick up the phone and talk to Tom Tippett. Now THAT was spoiled.

[Malleus Dei]

Oh, and I'd like to echo what Night 2000 has been saying about this. He sums up my point of view pretty well. I've been waiting on some much-needed features since Version 3 myself, and if they're never going to be implemented, I'd really like to know that.

[Steve Kuffrey]

Currently there are some communication issues which need to be resolved, I apologize for my "burnt" response.....it's hard not to hit a mulligan when you post as much as I do at times....I am sorry.

I hope to talk with Markus in the next couple of days and make some progress in the communication area.









-This post has been edited from it's original state due to a lack of constructive content.

[Henry]

I posted this in the OOTP 7:SI thread, and it belongs here as well...

Originally posted by Night2000
However we should have the right to know from now on, what will make it, and what won't make it. This way some of us can decide if we want to buy, or pass.

Even if we all agree to this statement, we have to weigh it against the fact that V7 is now under a new flagship.

Here's only "MY" assumption of how this will play out.

V6 - probable outcome

Markus will issue a number of further patches attempting to fix as much as possible with what doesn't work right. Enhancements will probably be minimized with the exception of H2H. At some point, maybe in a couple months? , he will have to move on to V7.

V7 - probable direction

Since we already know the game will likely go through a significant update, many of the things that have been "in the wings" may now be possible - but it is important to realize that EVERYTHING will not and cannot be added between now and Fall of 2005. There will be a V8 after that, hopefully a V9 after that one.

I guess I'm still preaching the point that Markus will, as he always has, try and add as much to the game as possible - but the list is much longer than any given time window, so there will always be a priority list.

In terms of Markus letting us know more detail, maybe what is MOST realistic (if he would agree) is a quarterly update, maybe July 04, Oct 04, Jan 05, Apr 05, Jul 05 and Oct 05. In these quarterly reports, he could provide some feel for how things are going on the major issues (the top ten). Then we could follow things and know well ahead of time when something was in trouble (for example, the coefficient hasn't been stated yet in the Jul 05 quarterly report).

Of course, Markus would have to take out some time to write this up every three months - and if he were to do this, the community has to try and avoid harsh criticism if things don't go their way.

The bottom line is we have to believe Markus is attempting to do his best with the game as we see ourselves doing, but he is on the front line, and knows on a daily basis what is working and what isn't. As a result, he is the one that has to make those decisions.

[sixto]

1. IF you tell customers that part of the purchasing "experience" is getting periodic updates...

THEN, it's the customer's prerogative to want information on those updates.

2. IF you tell customers that they've purchased a game as is and any and all patches and updates are at the company's prerogative...

THEN, caveat emptor.

You cannot have it both ways, Steve. You tell us, "Come on guys, you know Markus is good for some patches and some updates." I do not really see how, based on the marketing strategy, you could suggest that we should be left in the dark as to what and when.

It's very simple, really. I could not. Could not. Could not. Could. Not. Care. Less. If Markus has to write specs on updates 25 hours a day in addition to a 12-hour workday for SI. Your infrastructure is not my concern. If between the lot of you, you can't write a simple newsletter, you have an organizational problem. Don't you think?

Stop taking it out on us. I've never seen a customer service rep berate a customer in public before. First time for everything.

[holyroller]

I think the reason those of us who have problems with the game are feeling unwelcome is that:

a) If we criticize yet don't offer any suggestions or solutions, we are told that we aren't being constructive. The old "not part of the solution, you are part of the problem" syndrome so to speak.

b) If we do offer suggestions, we are accused of trying telling the company how to run its business and it isn't our business, etc.

c) Post like Steve's above, basically berating anyone who is unsatisifed with the game, apparently trying to browbeat us in to being satisfied.

What is it that the OOTPD staff would like us to do? Keep quiet? Go away? Obviously, voicing our concerns is not welcome, at least judging from the reaction. Working in customer service myself, I understand it can be frustrating to deal with dissatisfied customers, but it comes with the territory and is part of your job. To be honest, the reaction to my reaction to the game is making me less likely to continue to support this game than any problems with the game itself.

I think we all may need to take a step back here (mods and customers), take some deep breaths, and realize that we all want the same thing. Theoreticaly, we are all on the same side, we want the best game possible. Pissing in each other's faces doesn't help a damned thing.

[holyroller]

dola,

I don't mean to sound like a jerk or just pick on Steve (that post just rubbed me the wrong way), I am just feeling like people with concerns like sixto and I aren't very welcome here. I hope that is not the case, but if it is, I will leave.

[sporr]

We should all take a step back. Markus has just signed on to SI recently. Let's give him a chance to get settled and fix these issues. Things won't happen instantly.