My letter to Markus & Co. Part II - Page 4

dpwoodford · 06-07-2004, 01:49 PM

Nice to see a positive spin on things... I really wasn't trying to scare in my earlier posts, just explaining how I saw things...

MV's post on the testing policy should please some too!

D Love · 06-07-2004, 01:56 PM

Is there an ongoing thread anywhere where all the outstanding bugs are listed? It does seem that there are more bugs in OOTP6 than in other versions given the time that has passed.

However, I do vividly recall a thread for OOTP5 that said OOTP5 had way more bugs than any prior version of OOTP had. I think Markus quickly replied that that was not the case and OOTP5 was comparatively less buggy.

Sooo, I am having trouble figuring out whether OOTP6 is truly more buggy or it's simply squeakier wheels making noise about the bugs that it does have.

Dan Theman · 06-07-2004, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marc Vaughan
As I'm here and Markus isn't at the moment I thought I'd reply ...

With regards to supporting his existing products, SI will in no way block this from being done - however obviously he is working hard on drawing up designs for the new game at the moment during 'office' hours at SI (although I have tended to turn a blind eye towards work on them and indeed let Markus work full-time inhouse here for the last OOTP patch).

Markus will decide what support is required for his existing products and I'm sure as with his previous games this will go far beyond that normally given in the industry.

Um. Guys?

This isn't saying that SI is turning a blind eye towards Markus writing patches or updates to OOTP6. In fact, Marc is saying that he turned a blind eye towards current development of OOTP7 (the meaning of the "new game" phrase), allowing Markus to work on the OOTP6 patch (and presumably future patches, hence the phrase "I have tended to" instead of "I did" - I think the tense is past imperfect, meaning incomplete, but I'm a few miles away from my writer's guide so forgive me if I'm wrong). I hope Marc's post is more understandable, now.

- Dan

silvam14 · 06-07-2004, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by D Love
Is there an ongoing thread anywhere where all the outstanding bugs are listed? It does seem that there are more bugs in OOTP6 than in other versions given the time that has passed.

However, I do vividly recall a thread for OOTP5 that said OOTP5 had way more bugs than any prior version of OOTP had. I think Markus quickly replied that that was not the case and OOTP5 was comparatively less buggy.

Sooo, I am having trouble figuring out whether OOTP6 is truly more buggy or it's simply squeakier wheels making noise about the bugs that it does have.

I don't think that number of bugs is as important as the severity of the bugs. In this case, I think that there are more bugs with higher severity than in previous versions. Weather or not there were more total numbers of bugs really shouldn't be the issue

D Love · 06-07-2004, 02:01 PM

Malleus-

For the record, I don't object to the gist of your letter as much as your tone. But we'll have to agree to disagree.

Anyhow, one thing you did not touch upon and no one else really has, either, is the TIMING of Markus' announcement of the SI merger.

I'm not in marketing, but I thought it was horrendous judgment to announce (and therefore distract current & potential customers) a merger with an established company, as well as announcing a release date for the next version some 18 months down the road, just WEEKS after releasing OOTP6.

This announcement, I feel, has caused problems on many different levels (too many to discuss here) while, IMHO, not created ANY advantages.

What did Markus gain by announcing so early? Unless his agreement with SI required it, this was something that would have been better received this winter. And in the meantime, no one would be doubting Markus' ability or desire to patch up OOTP6. Instead, it seems many feel like OOTP6 is an abandoned stepchild.

Anyhow, I need to get back to work.

silvam14 · 06-07-2004, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan Theman
Um. Guys?

This isn't saying that SI is turning a blind eye towards Markus writing patches or updates to OOTP6. In fact, Marc is saying that he turned a blind eye towards current development of OOTP7 (the meaning of the "new game" phrase), allowing Markus to work on the OOTP6 patch (and presumably future patches, hence the phrase "I have tended to" instead of "I did" - I think the tense is past imperfect, meaning incomplete, but I'm a few miles away from my writer's guide so forgive me if I'm wrong). I hope Marc's post is more understandable, now.

- Dan

Good point Dan. (Although I will point out that I predicted that Marc's words would be picked apart to the punctuation mark. Past Imperfect..Ugh, reminds me of 12th grade French class....thanks a lot.

D Love · 06-07-2004, 02:03 PM

I didn't necessarily mean number of bugs. Quality over quantity, of course. Man, you gotta be precise on these boards!

silvam14 · 06-07-2004, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by D Love
I didn't necessarily mean number of bugs. Quality over quantity, of course. Man, you gotta be precise on these boards!

LOL

Henry · 06-07-2004, 02:22 PM

I think it was Markus' intention to let everyone know asap about the delay for V7 - rather than wait until a few months from the expected release - then drop a bomb that everyone is going to have to wait 6 more months.

Henry · 06-07-2004, 02:59 PM

My problem was the fact Markus was called a liar - outright. That's why the post was locked.

EagleEye_0 · 06-07-2004, 03:02 PM

ok, Henry. Ive lied before, Im sure you have too. I didnt say Markus was a liar, but he did lie. It happens. I still have faith that he will correct his broken promises.

Henry · 06-07-2004, 03:04 PM

The point is, such language has no point or use on this board. "Liar" denotes an intentional action to decieve. That IS NOT what happened.

Anyway, if we can't discuss things in an adult manner with some reasonable tact, then nothing will get accomplished.

EagleEye_0 · 06-07-2004, 03:07 PM

I'm sure it wasn't Henry and I stated as such. I still have high hopes for OOTP's future and think V6 will be patched to where it needs to be.
I'm just frustrated with the game right now.

silvam14 · 06-07-2004, 03:16 PM

I have to say that I like Markus' "overexuberance" if you will. I like the fact that he tries to put these things into his game and I completely understand if he falls short sometimes. I think we owe it to Markus to find his way again as I'm sure the move to SI has been a great move and a time consuming move.

I think everyone here has the same goal in mind...they want a bright future for OOTP. I don't think the $35 should be an issue to anyone because we all know we're going to shell it out for the next version.

While the boards have DEFINITELY been more interesting to read lately. Its starting to feel like a lynch mob is forming and that just doesn't make me feel good.

Mike

Henry · 06-07-2004, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by silvam14
While the boards have DEFINITELY been more interesting to read lately. Its starting to feel like a lynch mob is forming and that just doesn't make me feel good. Mike

Well, their prime target is going to take a well deserved sabatical. See you guys sometime after the new board returns

adventureran · 06-07-2004, 03:19 PM

Would you take a suggestion?

Another online community had similar problems with PR. The boards (and there were many more than OOTP has) were filled with comments similar to what we are seeing here.

They implimented a Top 20 Bugs List that was kept updated as to the status. Now, not everytime the developers worked on it, but as significant progress was made, or when it was in beta, or estimated date of delivery, etc.

This seemed to appease most because they felt they were being heard and work was being done.

Obviously not everyone is going to be satisfied - ever. But communication is an important part of a community - and that is what this is.

For all the bad-mouthing, trolling, name-calling, locked threads, etc. that has gone on here recently. And I will admit, I have done my share of pissing on the parade. The one thing that is abundantly clear is that everyone here really enjoys OOTP and even those of us who don't feel that the latest version is up to "standards", want to help to get it there.

If people didn't care, the emotions wouldn't be running so high as they appear to be here.

rwd59 · 06-07-2004, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by silvam14
we all know we're going to shell it out for the next version.

Not necessarily!
But I do feel adventaran's suggestion would be helpful.

gmo · 06-07-2004, 03:20 PM

*sigh*

People aren't interested in discussion, because this is not discussion going on along these lines. It is alternating declarations. People already have their minds made up. They aren't here to see points be made by various sides and try to sort out the issues. Perspectives are set and opinions are established on why the current problems exist, what those problems are and how they should be prioritized, what the future holds for V6 and for future versions under SI, what Markus did, is doing, will do, and so, etc, ad nausem.

I would like to discuss the issues currently on the front burner. But to me that means as much asking questions as stating opinions, less certainty going into the discussion, and though there is love of the game a detachment so as to keep gushing and bashing out of the discussion. I hope using "people" in the paragraph above was painting with too wide a brush, but I guess this is just not the time for emotionless moderate voices and minds not made up.

EagleEye_0 · 06-07-2004, 03:25 PM

It is getting ridiculous yeah. I imagine that the point has gotten through to Markus and the rest of the team, so it's probably time to cut it out. Ultimately one really good patch that fixes most of the bugs and features will go a long way to restoring the lost faith. But it is frustrating from a fan's point of view to love a game so much, but have a few problems that just kind of ruin the experience. I first posted today about the situation. A bad idea probably, as I was overly frustrated today about multiple things not ootp related.

I imagine it's not easy for Steve and Henry.

silvam14 · 06-07-2004, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by adventureran
Would you take a suggestion?

Another online community had similar problems with PR. The boards (and there were many more than OOTP has) were filled with comments similar to what we are seeing here.

They implimented a Top 20 Bugs List that was kept updated as to the status. Now, not everytime the developers worked on it, but as significant progress was made, or when it was in beta, or estimated date of delivery, etc.

This seemed to appease most because they felt they were being heard and work was being done.

Obviously not everyone is going to be satisfied - ever. But communication is an important part of a community - and that is what this is.

For all the bad-mouthing, trolling, name-calling, locked threads, etc. that has gone on here recently. And I will admit, I have done my share of pissing on the parade. The one thing that is abundantly clear is that everyone here really enjoys OOTP and even those of us who don't feel that the latest version is up to "standards", want to help to get it there.

If people didn't care, the emotions wouldn't be running so high as they appear to be here.

That sounds great, but I think Markus has really done a great job in general with just staying in touch now and then.

I mean, these boards should ideally be for feedback (not only positive) and help and general discussion. I don't think our money that we spend on this game gives us a right to tell markus how to program his game and demand fixes or else (or else what? is more like it)

I think these boards are a great tool for Markus to use Henry and Steve to update him on what we, the users feel are problems with the game, and which, if any direction we would like it to go.

I personally would rather have Markus spending more time nose-deep in his OOTP code fixing things, than here trying to take in every little concern I have. I TRUST <---(good word here) Henry and Steve fill him in on the very important issues and that is all I can ask.

06-07-2004, 03:16 PM	#74
silvam14 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Dedham, MA Posts: 9,746	I have to say that I like Markus' "overexuberance" if you will. I like the fact that he tries to put these things into his game and I completely understand if he falls short sometimes. I think we owe it to Markus to find his way again as I'm sure the move to SI has been a great move and a time consuming move. I think everyone here has the same goal in mind...they want a bright future for OOTP. I don't think the $35 should be an issue to anyone because we all know we're going to shell it out for the next version. While the boards have DEFINITELY been more interesting to read lately. Its starting to feel like a lynch mob is forming and that just doesn't make me feel good. Mike __________________ Senior "Nancy Boy" of the OOTP Boards _______________________________________________

06-07-2004, 03:20 PM	#78
gmo Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: Longmont, CO Posts: 3,162	sigh People aren't interested in discussion, because this is not discussion going on along these lines. It is alternating declarations. People already have their minds made up. They aren't here to see points be made by various sides and try to sort out the issues. Perspectives are set and opinions are established on why the current problems exist, what those problems are and how they should be prioritized, what the future holds for V6 and for future versions under SI, what Markus did, is doing, will do, and so, etc, ad nausem. I would like to discuss the issues currently on the front burner. But to me that means as much asking questions as stating opinions, less certainty going into the discussion, and though there is love of the game a detachment so as to keep gushing and bashing out of the discussion. I hope using "people" in the paragraph above was painting with too wide a brush, but I guess this is just not the time for emotionless moderate voices and minds not made up. __________________ Making Baseball Schedules

06-07-2004, 01:49 PM	#61
dpwoodford Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 103	Nice to see a positive spin on things... I really wasn't trying to scare in my earlier posts, just explaining how I saw things... MV's post on the testing policy should please some too!

06-07-2004, 01:56 PM	#62
D Love All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 908	Is there an ongoing thread anywhere where all the outstanding bugs are listed? It does seem that there are more bugs in OOTP6 than in other versions given the time that has passed. However, I do vividly recall a thread for OOTP5 that said OOTP5 had way more bugs than any prior version of OOTP had. I think Markus quickly replied that that was not the case and OOTP5 was comparatively less buggy. Sooo, I am having trouble figuring out whether OOTP6 is truly more buggy or it's simply squeakier wheels making noise about the bugs that it does have.

06-07-2004, 02:01 PM	#65
D Love All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 908	Malleus- For the record, I don't object to the gist of your letter as much as your tone. But we'll have to agree to disagree. Anyhow, one thing you did not touch upon and no one else really has, either, is the TIMING of Markus' announcement of the SI merger. I'm not in marketing, but I thought it was horrendous judgment to announce (and therefore distract current & potential customers) a merger with an established company, as well as announcing a release date for the next version some 18 months down the road, just WEEKS after releasing OOTP6. This announcement, I feel, has caused problems on many different levels (too many to discuss here) while, IMHO, not created ANY advantages. What did Markus gain by announcing so early? Unless his agreement with SI required it, this was something that would have been better received this winter. And in the meantime, no one would be doubting Markus' ability or desire to patch up OOTP6. Instead, it seems many feel like OOTP6 is an abandoned stepchild. Anyhow, I need to get back to work.

06-07-2004, 02:03 PM	#67
D Love All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 908	I didn't necessarily mean number of bugs. Quality over quantity, of course. Man, you gotta be precise on these boards!

06-07-2004, 02:22 PM	#69
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	I think it was Markus' intention to let everyone know asap about the delay for V7 - rather than wait until a few months from the expected release - then drop a bomb that everyone is going to have to wait 6 more months.

06-07-2004, 02:59 PM	#70
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	My problem was the fact Markus was called a liar - outright. That's why the post was locked.

06-07-2004, 03:02 PM	#71
EagleEye_0 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 1,426	ok, Henry. Ive lied before, Im sure you have too. I didnt say Markus was a liar, but he did lie. It happens. I still have faith that he will correct his broken promises.

06-07-2004, 03:04 PM	#72
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	The point is, such language has no point or use on this board. "Liar" denotes an intentional action to decieve. That IS NOT what happened. Anyway, if we can't discuss things in an adult manner with some reasonable tact, then nothing will get accomplished.

06-07-2004, 03:07 PM	#73
EagleEye_0 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 1,426	I'm sure it wasn't Henry and I stated as such. I still have high hopes for OOTP's future and think V6 will be patched to where it needs to be. I'm just frustrated with the game right now.

06-07-2004, 03:19 PM	#76
adventureran Major Leagues Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 447	Would you take a suggestion? Another online community had similar problems with PR. The boards (and there were many more than OOTP has) were filled with comments similar to what we are seeing here. They implimented a Top 20 Bugs List that was kept updated as to the status. Now, not everytime the developers worked on it, but as significant progress was made, or when it was in beta, or estimated date of delivery, etc. This seemed to appease most because they felt they were being heard and work was being done. Obviously not everyone is going to be satisfied - ever. But communication is an important part of a community - and that is what this is. For all the bad-mouthing, trolling, name-calling, locked threads, etc. that has gone on here recently. And I will admit, I have done my share of pissing on the parade. The one thing that is abundantly clear is that everyone here really enjoys OOTP and even those of us who don't feel that the latest version is up to "standards", want to help to get it there. If people didn't care, the emotions wouldn't be running so high as they appear to be here.

06-07-2004, 03:25 PM	#79
EagleEye_0 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 1,426	It is getting ridiculous yeah. I imagine that the point has gotten through to Markus and the rest of the team, so it's probably time to cut it out. Ultimately one really good patch that fixes most of the bugs and features will go a long way to restoring the lost faith. But it is frustrating from a fan's point of view to love a game so much, but have a few problems that just kind of ruin the experience. I first posted today about the situation. A bad idea probably, as I was overly frustrated today about multiple things not ootp related. I imagine it's not easy for Steve and Henry.