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Old 06-06-2014, 05:47 AM   #1
katielied
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Historical Import Inconsistent

why is it that when i import pitchers from other eras (1900-1950) their ratings are low even though they dominated their time period?

i tried changing their ages but doesn't make any difference.

joe mcginnity has an real ERA of 1.61 and a whip of 0.96 yet gets a 1/2 star rating and 'overall stuff' rating of 49.


i import verlander wit ERA of 2.40 and whip of 0.92 and he gets a 3 star rating and 'overall stuff' rating of 140.

what am i missing?

thanks
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Old 06-06-2014, 06:03 AM   #2
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I don't think you are missing anything. I have had this issue since I first began playing. Historical players imported are generally weaker than fictional or even mlqs players. Especially pitchers, as the ratings set up does not factor in era, and they get burned with the low strikeout high hit numbers.

I have created "adjusted" values for all players in history in order to midernify them. I use those values when I create them. Short suggestion, just add 10 to all their main values after you import (even add 10% to their GB %) and that will help.

Do you have a specific pitcher you want in the game. I can give you my adjusted values for them
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Old 06-06-2014, 09:42 AM   #3
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The historical ratings appear to adjust for quality of competition faced. Since the overall talent level of MLB was weaker back in the day, guys with better stats against vastly weaker competition take a ratings hit relative to their modern-day counterparts.
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Old 06-06-2014, 12:00 PM   #4
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I don't think that is right jm.

Import a player into an historical league, say 1930's or something, and the ratings of that player will basically be the same
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Old 06-06-2014, 12:28 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katielied View Post
why is it that when i import pitchers from other eras (1900-1950) their ratings are low even though they dominated their time period?

i tried changing their ages but doesn't make any difference.

joe mcginnity has an real ERA of 1.61 and a whip of 0.96 yet gets a 1/2 star rating and 'overall stuff' rating of 49.


i import verlander wit ERA of 2.40 and whip of 0.92 and he gets a 3 star rating and 'overall stuff' rating of 140.

what am i missing?

thanks
Stuff is largely based on strikeouts. Since there were much fewer strikeouts in early 1900s, players will import with much lower Stuff ratings.

Hope that helps.
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Old 06-06-2014, 02:50 PM   #6
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Part of the problem could be that thier velocity tends to be a lot less then modern pitchers. Cy young tends to suck in most RD leagues after 2000 because he threw around 88 mph. Even WalterJjohnson & Christy Mathewson tends to be #4 guys in a rotation.
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Old 06-06-2014, 03:16 PM   #7
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As far as the low stuff ratings...I've always looked at it this way

Here is the NL's SO/9inning over the decades. (went with the NL since it is more consistent since no DH was introduced)

NL SO/9
1901: 3.8
1911: 3.9
1921: 2.8
1931: 3.2
1941: 3.6
1951: 3.8
1961: 5.4
1971: 5.4
1981: 4.9
1991: 5.9
2001: 7.0
2011: 7.3

If the stuff ratings are heavily influenced by SO...then historically speaking....the stuff ratings are going to be very low compared to recent decades.

My problem with historical leagues...is because SO and HR were so low from 1901 to early 20's...my expectation (sometimes of anticipation) of the great pitchers never get met because there is little to no separation between players ratings. They all are low stuff high movement decent to great control. When you add in random talent gains and losses and injuries...you seldom get to feel like Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson etc ever live up to what you want them to be in the game.
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Old 06-07-2014, 01:32 AM   #8
katielied
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in the spirit of customizing the way we want it...

why isn't there an option to adjust this?

i want mathewson and w johnson and mordecai brown to be to good pitchers...not below average...

why can't we have an option to make the import engine just base things on stats and no certain periods?

seems like we got options for everything else.

thanks for all your help...
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Old 06-07-2014, 03:03 AM   #9
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I'm just not sure how I would rate guys from that time period.

Christy Matthewson Career
H/9: 7.9
HR/9 : 0.2
BB/9: 1.6
SO/9: 4.7

Walter Johnson Career
H/9: 7.5
HR/9: 0.1
BB/9: 2.1
SO/9: 5.3

NL 1911 League Average
H/9: 8.6
HR/9: 0.3
BB/9: 3.5
SO/9: 3.9

They are obviously better then the league average but its hard to give either one of them incredible stuff and even average pitchers are going to have great movement due to the lack of homers they gave (stat-wise). Really it was their control that separates them...and perhaps having a +1 to stuff compared to the average pitcher of the time. Still...its difficult to create enough separation ratings wise.

For me this period has always been trying for me...I just hate seeing the all-time greats from this period not being able to stay in the rotation but its outside of constantly editing them...they are very hit and miss....and usually, for me anyway, have a 2-4 year peak.
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Old 06-07-2014, 05:17 AM   #10
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That is why I use adjusted ratings, where I modify a player based against the era. The star players stay as star players in the modern era- yet the get modernified, so dead ball pitchers give up more homers, but strike out more batters.

As I am almost exclusively fictional-or qs, with ml stars drafted in each year

Its a simple formula I use, but takes a few minutes as I use 7 years to grade players- and now that ootp has a different rating system itself (batters weaker, pitchers better) in the qs-fictional modes, I had to alter my ratings. The key stat for me is adjusted ERA, what the import in the game mostly ignores. I work the adjusted hit-walk-k ratings around to get the adjusted ERA to work. The star pitchers from all eras play like stars, and Johnson, Hubbell, Young, Kaufax, Feller, lead the way in the years the play,

Give me a player (pitcher for this discussion) and I will give you the ratings I use when he comes into my game world.as an example for you

Last edited by sprague; 06-07-2014 at 05:23 AM. Reason: Update
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Old 06-07-2014, 05:43 AM   #11
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When you say give up more homers...how much we talking...?

Many versions ago...I dabbled with trying a few things to tweak it more to my liking but I felt I was getting to many 300k pitchers and too many guys hitting double-digit homers. But that was I believe OOTP 10. Its been awhile.

I mostly play fictional leagues...but once or twice a version I'll do a history replay where I don't have a team.
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Old 06-07-2014, 07:55 AM   #12
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Mordecai Brown in my current random debut league. I'm currently at the beginning of the 4th season. Brown is now 34 years old.

1978 23-9 2.69 1.14 162
1979 14-15 2.28 1.06 151
1980 17-10 3.02 1.18 121

This league is permanently locked in 1978.

Brown pitches for the San Diego Friars
1978 91-71
1978 82-80
1980 80-82
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Old 06-07-2014, 01:10 PM   #13
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Ok since their names came up in the thread, here is Three Finger Brown and Christy Mathewson. However they oddly became quite similar in the test. So I figured I should give a third as a test. So 1920's Yankee pitcher Waite Hoyt is the third

Keep in mind I do this mainly for either fictional leagues with 20-30 teams, or MLQS. If someone had a league of 8-10 teams, then the import value of the player might be fine.


First thing I did for you was import them into a game, just the way they normally come in.Here is their results for REAL STATS, (I checked nuetralized as well, there was not much of a difference in case you were asking)

S=Stuff, M-Movement, C=Control

Brown
import
S 69 M 255 C 153 real
59%GB 220 stamina

and his stats line
IP 231 H 232 HRA 3 BB 47 K 119 ERA 312

christy Mathewson imports
79 255 170
53 220

IP 231 H 227 HRA 8 BB 36 K 131 ERA 308

Waite Hoyt imports
47 237 140
57 203

IP 225 H 246 HRA 8 BB 55 K 79 ERA 384



Ok so not bad, but even Brown and Mathewson would not be the super star in a modern day major league QS for example. And they won't be striking anyone out, which of course if they had modern training, they would be.

so we have to adjust them. I take the 8 best years for a pitcher in ERA, IP, W and K
(no other values are needed. Not hits or home runs actually. You can add them to the formula for accuracy, but they won;t much effect the final outcome of the ratings-stats)

The years are selected best in that category (not 8 individual seasons). The walk total however is the walks the pitcher gave up in the season selected in the strikeout category. I add the 8 values, and add the top 2 twice- divide by 10 (makes doing the math a bit easier)

Brown complete workthrough

His real life best 8-10 turn out as
1.60 ERA 290 IP 137 K 52 W

Impressive. But now we have to adjust them. For example an average year in this era the era for a league was around 2.50 or strikeouts in a game 3.60.
I moved things to a modern type era of 4.20 ERA, 7.20 strikeouts, 3.20 walks

That gives Brown an adjustment to
2.70 290 289 64

The game however uses a 232-240 innings pitch calculation on the Resulting stats column, which allows for handy "create current ratings based on stats"

Moving that to 232 innings gets
ERA 2.70
IP 232
K 231
W 56

Now that's more like it. But how to make the player ratings complete.

First I increase speed to 92mph. And the groundball percentage around 60%

then put in the walk total and k total into the boxes-
Doing so he would wind up with a 2.30 era. But he need to be a bit above 2.70, so now we increase the homeruns I had to increase to 13, with him still at 60% GB range puts him right at 2.76 ERA suggested
his totals on the game screen becomes

IP 238 H 208 HRA 13 BB 56 K 232 ERA 2.76

the ratings being
142 Stuff,
187 Movement,
139 Control

(so he still is good in not giving up homeruns, but will give up a few walks, and now is a more above average strikeout guy)

I change his stamina rating to a more modern-like 180 (based on an adjustment from his era)

voilla there is THREE FINGER BROWN

142, 187, 139
60%, 180 STMA
IP 238 H 208 HRA 13 BB 56 K 232 ERA 2.76



Without all the additional math here is Mathewson


CHRISTY MATHEWSON
the ratings being
177 stuff
154 movement
143 control

GB 54%, stamina 195

IP 244 H 197 HRA 21 BB 54 K 289 ERA 2.65

(he becomes more rounded as a pitcher, with extra strikeouts)


Thus the two actually become rather similar in how they work, just mathewson will strike out more but give up a few more homeruns, while Brown will get a few more outs on the ground, but they will tend to be similar


Here is how Waite Hoyt winded up

WAITE HOYT
129 stuff
180 movement
129 control

GB 57%, stamina 170

IP 236 H 217 HRA 16 BB 63 K 211 ERA 3.17


That makes Hoyt good, probably a #1 starter for almost all teams, but not in the class of Brown and Mathewson.


That is how I create the real life players into my fictional worlds. If my league was small, say 10 teams, I give them a small penalty in ratings

Last edited by sprague; 06-07-2014 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 06-08-2014, 10:12 AM   #14
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that's awesome!!!

now why isn't that an option so we don't have to go in and do all those changes?

Last edited by katielied; 06-08-2014 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 06-08-2014, 11:11 AM   #15
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It would be cool to have an option to modernize ratings on import or an option to scale based off specific era.

With that said, if you were running a vanilla historical replay it wouldn't be realistic because pitchers would be striking out too many and there were be higher than normal homers but for a random debut league it would be great.
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Old 06-10-2014, 01:29 AM   #16
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So why aren't the talent ratings generated on a scale vs the mean of the league they played in vs. their stats in general? It would stand to reason that struck out 40% more batters than average should have a much higher stuff rating vs the other pitchers in his league. Similarly, a guy who gave up 67% less home runs than average should have considerably more movement.

Then ERA+ and/or FIP should be a buffer. Maybe the guy's K/9, BB/9 and HR/9 are all only slightly above average but his ERA+ and FIP are eons above the rest. Then he should get an additional boost since he obviously pitched far above the mean as a whole.

Truthfully, I always thought this was kind of how it was. I only really play 1970+ leagues so never really noticed this before. However, it doesn't make much sense that the game values historically low HR/9 numbers just because they're low and not because they're significantly better than the mean.
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Old 06-10-2014, 05:37 AM   #17
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Well the game does an ok job in doing what it is meant to do, recreate a historical season with the players from that year, to those basic stats

The problem only comes if you want to move a player to a different era, play a different "stats age" for a season, and I guess random debut players.

The game just has no code or setup for it. You can see above how much math there is to do. Neutralized stats are supposed to do that, and the sort of do for players post 1960- but as you go further back, the way the stats were originated are wonky- dead ball players still have no home runs, while 20's-40's players are underrated in my view as well.

As such I have done the math myself. If marcus is really interested I can share my formulas with him, as a possible option for imports of players- but me now thy are hand done, and I bring them into my fictional worlds. Really love it actually, just takes a while at the draft with all the player revisions.
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Old 06-11-2014, 07:08 AM   #18
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Sprague!!!

ok because of you i'm looking under the hood and blah!!!

the historical import changes everything...pitchers and hitters.

why can't it just keep the imported year stats and rate the player accordingly?

more realistic? sometimes i just want to see what happens when the best seasons go head to head.

what's the use of importing these dominant players in other eras if they gonna perform like below average players. makes no sense to me at all.

i can't even duplicate what you did. i change one setting and the other automatically changes.

there should be some options on importing. but by default it should leave the imported stats as is.

if that's the season i want imported, that's the season i should get.

then if i want real, there should be a checkbox to say change everything like now.

baseball is stats...

the whole fantasy historical thing for me is to see how walter johnson would have handled barry bonds in their peak years based on their best year stats. according to the this games changes things on import, walter johnson may as well be kevin correia.

appreciate all the info. is there a way to change the stats before import?
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Old 06-11-2014, 02:31 PM   #19
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Neutered Stats

Using Neutralized stats puts every league/year/player into the same context of 715 runs per team. It doesn’t matter how those 715 runs are scored so that 1906 and 2006 players may have very different stats makeups but they each would contribute their share of the 715 runs. If you then put these neutered players in a different run environment their stats will reflect that environment.
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Old 06-11-2014, 03:01 PM   #20
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Katielied, I think most people would agree that Walter Johnson would get crushed by Barry Bonds. He didn't throw hard and his repotoire was vastly underdeveloped compared to the next 100 years of evolution. Personally, I don't think many pre-1920 players would fare well at all in modern day baseball.
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