Calling Richard Hanna & Dave Koch

[professordp]

Originally Posted by zyberianwarrior

I want to mention something about this game that is UNIQUE to the boxing games and why a lot of people (including me) would not buy "fighter packs" the RFG generator. Granted its hit and miss but why buy when you can make your own? The RFG I use(d) in ALL of my unis and enjoy the wild variances for the fighters. This is why I will have trouble finding a similar game. To the one that mentioned Downey Games they haven't had a fighter update pack since 2013.

This is based on a few questionable assumptions.


1) "Unique" to boxing games? I don't know what you're talking about concerning "RFG"? And I wonder how many people are interested universes "with wild variances"? I don't know if I'd like a sports game that has ratings that are, to use your wording, "hit or miss".


2) You can make your own? Few of use can "make our own" given the limits of our "expertise". Furthermore, many games, certainly not all, don't tell you anything with regard to how you can "rate your own". Moreover, it takes considerable research, if you want to do it properly, to "rate your own".


3) "To the one that mentioned Downey Games". That's directed specifically to me...why didn't you just address me directly? No revisions to Downey since 2013? And what's happened here with TBCB since 2013?? Oh, that's right. PISD/Paul offered us a game that doesn't work. By the way, you're a little rusty on your facts. There's a 2018 update for Downey's game.


4) So you don't want to pay for ratings. That's fine, but how do you think the game will survive?


5) "This is why I will have trouble finding a similar game." You answered that yourself by stating that you're not willing to pay for boxer ratings.

If you have not learned this to date, let me give you a taste of reality...there's no free lunch!

[professordp]

Originally Posted by zyberianwarrior

I want to mention something about this game that is UNIQUE to the boxing games and why a lot of people (including me) would not buy "fighter packs" the RFG generator. Granted its hit and miss but why buy when you can make your own? The RFG I use(d) in ALL of my unis and enjoy the wild variances for the fighters. This is why I will have trouble finding a similar game. To the one that mentioned Downey Games they haven't had a fighter update pack since 2013.

This argument is based on some questionable assumptions.


1) "(A) lot of people would not buy 'fighter packs". Can you prove this claim? I ask this because I get the opposite impression whenever this has been proposed.


2) So you use a RFG generator that, as you say, is "hit or miss", producing "wild variances for the fighters". I not certain that I'd enjoy a game that is that uncertain with "hit or miss" ratings.


3) "Why buy when you can make your own." You must have far greater expertise than I do or any member of this forum. I've rated fighters and it takes me a lot of research. And I only concentrate on a twenty year time frame (mid-1950s to mid-1970s)


4) "To the one who mentioned Downey Game..." That's me, so why not just address me directly. You're a little "rusty' on your facts here. Actually Downey recently issued 2018 ratings. Just as an aside, what has PISD/Paul given us since 2013...a bug-ridden game that doesn't work!


5) "This is why I will have trouble finding a similar game." Of course you will! Especially if you're taking the attitude expressed in you're post. Why pay for the ratings when you can get them for "free"? We'll just "loot the store" and when there's no merchandise left, we'll move on to the next one!


6) One thing you need to learn. There's no free lunch. So you're free to take that RFG and have all kinds of fun with it and not pay for ratings. But in the same breath, to decry the decline of TBCB strikes me as more than a little hypocritical .

[professordp]

Originally Posted by professordp

This is based on a few questionable assumptions.


1) "Unique" to boxing games? I don't know what you're talking about concerning "RFG"? And I wonder how many people are interested universes "with wild variances"? I don't know if I'd like a sports game that has ratings that are, to use your wording, "hit or miss".


2) You can make your own? Few of use can "make our own" given the limits of our "expertise". Furthermore, many games, certainly not all, don't tell you anything with regard to how you can "rate your own". Moreover, it takes considerable research, if you want to do it properly, to "rate your own".


3) "To the one that mentioned Downey Games". That's directed specifically to me...why didn't you just address me directly? No revisions to Downey since 2013? And what's happened here with TBCB since 2013?? Oh, that's right. PISD/Paul offered us a game that doesn't work. By the way, you're a little rusty on your facts. There's a 2018 update for Downey's game.


4) So you don't want to pay for ratings. That's fine, but how do you think the game will survive?


5) "This is why I will have trouble finding a similar game." You answered that yourself by stating that you're not willing to pay for boxer ratings.

If you have not learned this to date, let me give you a taste of reality...there's no free lunch!

See below

[hamed2]

Originally Posted by professordp

2) You can make your own? Few of use can "make our own" given the limits of our "expertise". Furthermore, many games, certainly not all, don't tell you anything with regard to how you can "rate your own". Moreover, it takes considerable research, if you want to do it properly, to "rate your own".


4) So you don't want to pay for ratings. That's fine, but how do you think the game will survive?


5) "This is why I will have trouble finding a similar game." You answered that yourself by stating that you're not willing to pay for boxer ratings.

If you have not learned this to date, let me give you a taste of reality...there's no free lunch!

Good points here, we need to support this game.



Also I like getting ratings from guys like IT, Jackyle & bear because I'm using those ratings against other fighters they rated. Also when they produce new ones, I wonder do they make sense?



And yes, many time a new rating will appear and that updated fighter is now a 7 & he just beat a 6 so that new rating does make sense.

[Cap]

I remember buying season discs for LaRussa baseball. Creating hundreds of new players would have way too much work for me, so I didn't mind buying from someone who knows baseball way more than I do.

Boxing is a different animal. I've been following it for about @!##@$% years and have absorbed quite a bit over that stretch. I wouldn't think of trying to create boxers for use by others, but I will make them for my own use. Generally I look for a boxer already in the game's database who was similar to someone I'd like to add, copy that guy's ratings to clone a new boxer, then tinker with the new guy's ratings a little to make him closer to my idea of what the new boxer was like. I'm only interested now in boxers from about 1890 to about 1955. Once in a while I toss in someone from a later period, but he's from the existing database.

I only use heavyweights and don't use currently active boxers so I don't use ratings provided by our esteemed ratings boffins. As for the RFG I can see where this would be useful if you have a totally fictional universe bereft of historical or active boxers. To each his own.

A select few here have been testing the Alpha version of Paul's PISD game. At present it would appear that man will establish a permanent colony on Mars before we see the new version of TBCB. I certainly wish it were otherwise. Perhaps Paul's son will inherit the project and finally see it to fruition. I don't think a consistent flow of revenue is the problem. At least one other person has offered funds, only to be turned down.

As I sit here now I wonder how many times I've written similar malarkey or read it from others over the last ten or twelve years!

Keep buying those lottery tickets!

Cap

[hamed2]

Cap, so it's true there is a new version of the game they're working on?

[Cap]

Originally Posted by hamed2

Cap, so it's true there is a new version of the game they're working on?

So I've been told. I think Bear is one of the Alpha Test team, but I'm not even sure he's still with us. Folks vanish from here never to be heard from again.

Cap

[Hootowl9]

As I'm building a new Uni after my 2.5 version crashed again I must say I have been overcome by a feeling of deep sadness as I'm downloading John Dewey's & others fighters ratings! How does that quote go,...."say it ain't so !!". I'm sure we all miss you John Dewey !! - RIP


It strikes me with the latest ongoing conversation on the game status & viability of the same, that all posting really care about this niche game. I am very thankful for all whom have posted fighters ratings.


Would I want to "pay" for yearly fighter updates or twice a year at a reasonable
price? Yeah I would, if it would support the game! (not the crap EA put's out.) I wish a company with the resources to produce a new version of this game with this format could happen. Wish in one hand & sh1t in the other I guess. I do think with proper marketing & support this game could turn a profit I think.


Having said that, I also like the fact and enjoy all the ratings posted here, and that is one of the unique things that stands apart from other gaming communities!

Seems all here are pleased to share their creations and input. Varied as they may be I appreciate & value the ratings posted. I try to do some research at least before I posted the few fighters I have and may do more soon. It's one of the things I really enjoy about the game. The history, the Bio's....ect. The game itself is almost an after thought! lol


Anyway, just my useless thought's, that and a dollar will get ya a cup of coffee!

All good and valid points on both sides of the coin as it were.

[Cap]

One final point.

As for supporting the game, let Paul or someone else produce a first rate version of Title Bout that is stable and able to handle our existing AUs without a hitch and I will support it with my hard-earned cash. I bought three copies of TB2013 when it came out (six licenses) to show my support. I'd do it again if we get something worthwhile.

If someone is in contact with the reclusive Paul Norman. Give him a nudge or a smack upside the earhole and ask him to give us a frank assessment of where the game is at.

Cap

[bob_bask]

I'd happily of brought packs of fighters if the ratings were editable. The rest can be locked in.

If ratings locked in, probably would have short interest in TB.

[Hootowl9]

[QUOTE=bob_bask;4368964]I'd happily of brought packs of fighters if the ratings were editable. The rest can be locked in.

If ratings locked in, probably would have short interest in TB.

[/QUOTE

Totally agree with your statement Bob_Bask ! Editable ratings for fighters would be a must for me as well.

Cap as well, yup, agree!

[Rob Morris]

Originally Posted by professordp

To quote our late friend, Danny, quantity seems to has surpassed quality as it relates to TBCB.
.

I had the exact same conversation with Danny before he passed away. His reasoning was (and I have to say I agreed with him) was that TBCB needed to get the ratings right for the original fighters it had before adding new ones in. Not knocking the guys that produce new ratings, I guess his point was, sometimes less is more.

[Hootowl9]

Originally Posted by Rob Morris

I had the exact same conversation with Danny before he passed away. His reasoning was (and I have to say I agreed with him) was that TBCB needed to get the ratings right for the original fighters it had before adding new ones in. Not knocking the guys that produce new ratings, I guess his point was, sometimes less is more.

As I'm filling my Uni from the Misc. fighter thread & others I often find myself tweaking some posted fighters. I am thankful for all those posted, but again I would pay a reasonable amount for tested & accurate updates.

Looking at some ratings I see fighters with limited fights be given a HP of 7, 8, or 9 with a CF of 6 or 7 and Draw of 3 or 4.
Yes it is true that HW Joe Shucker has won 6 of 8 bouts by KO or TKO. Not bad for a guy picking up an extra $60 to $80 Bucks boxing when he's not doing his rural paper route in his rusty 1987 Dodge pickup!

When checking his opponents I see he fought over the hill TC's or some guy's that love the sport but just not very good. In venues from the local school gym or Sam's Bar & Dance Hall to the farmers equipment shed on the edge of town in the open area right behind the John Deer tractor near the hay loft. (I do think your tractor is sexy however).

Anyway I just can't justify the high ratings above based on whom Joe Shucker fought. So yeah, you might have to up his ratings to reflect his record but is that the way to go??!!?? Just asking?

I am no expert and would like to post a few fighters I've rated but not comfortable doing that I guess. There are no good or bad ratings, it's your / our game so whatever works.

Thx for letting me vent. (BTW, from older thread posts not recent.)

[Jackyle]

Fighter ratings are tough, they are subjective, and people rate differently for sure. Bear is tougher on defense than I am, I think I tend to be tougher on punching accuracy... I think

I just studied IceTea, and John Dewey's ratings as my general guide, but love seeing Bear's, Bask's and other's ratings to get insight on how different ratings can work in game.

If I could point to one rating done that opened my eyes a bit it was IceTea's rating of Leo Santa Cruz and how aggression and punching accuracy can work for some fighters instead of power even though they have high knockout percentages. It's not always the power right.

Anyway. I only post my ratings because I do them. So I figure sharing is good.

[Hootowl9]

Originally Posted by Jackyle

Fighter ratings are tough, they are subjective, and people rate differently for sure. Bear is tougher on defense than I am, I think I tend to be tougher on punching accuracy... I think

I just studied IceTea, and John Dewey's ratings as my general guide, but love seeing Bear's, Bask's and other's ratings to get insight on how different ratings can work in game.

If I could point to one rating done that opened my eyes a bit it was IceTea's rating of Leo Santa Cruz and how aggression and punching accuracy can work for some fighters instead of power even though they have high knockout percentages. It's not always the power right.

Anyway. I only post my ratings because I do them. So I figure sharing is good.

Hello Jackyle,
Thx for your reply. Yeah, as I'm learning I also have studied some of the same ratings from John Dewey, Bear, Bask and others. I would also say that I pay attention to your posted fighter's that are outstanding!!
So thank you for putting those up!

Hell, most here have forgotten more than I know. I'm starting to get a feel for rating & do some play testing. I like going back and reading old posts from Bear, Bask,..well the Prof and many others. Really some good reading. Other peoples results in their Uni's is cool also.

I seem to recall some charts people have posted to help with rating.
I printed one from Bear he had posted awhile back on 3 point punch guidelines & HP 3pt range. I thought I had seen another chart on Control Rating base on a fighters record & other factors. Can't recall where?

Yeah, it's all subjective to an extent but I really value what you, Bear , Icetea, ect. you guy's are a open book of knowledge I have to consider when working on a few fighters . So you make it less subjective based on real expertise that I don't & never will have.

Just happy to see people still here & keeping things going.
Thx all!

[IceTea]

Originally Posted by Hootowl9

Hello Jackyle,
Thx for your reply. Yeah, as I'm learning I also have studied some of the same ratings from John Dewey, Bear, Bask and others. I would also say that I pay attention to your posted fighter's that are outstanding!!
So thank you for putting those up!

Hell, most here have forgotten more than I know. I'm starting to get a feel for rating & do some play testing. I like going back and reading old posts from Bear, Bask,..well the Prof and many others. Really some good reading. Other peoples results in their Uni's is cool also.

I seem to recall some charts people have posted to help with rating.
I printed one from Bear he had posted awhile back on 3 point punch guidelines & HP 3pt range. I thought I had seen another chart on Control Rating base on a fighters record & other factors. Can't recall where?

Yeah, it's all subjective to an extent but I really value what you, Bear , Icetea, ect. you guy's are a open book of knowledge I have to consider when working on a few fighters . So you make it less subjective based on real expertise that I don't & never will have.

Just happy to see people still here & keeping things going.
Thx all!

Here is a copy.

[hamed2]

Originally Posted by Jackyle

Fighter ratings are tough, they are subjective, and people rate differently for sure. Bear is tougher on defense than I am, I think I tend to be tougher on punching accuracy... I think

I just studied IceTea, and John Dewey's ratings as my general guide, but love seeing Bear's, Bask's and other's ratings to get insight on how different ratings can work in game.

If I could point to one rating done that opened my eyes a bit it was IceTea's rating of Leo Santa Cruz and how aggression and punching accuracy can work for some fighters instead of power even though they have high knockout percentages. It's not always the power right.

Anyway. I only post my ratings because I do them. So I figure sharing is good.

Yes & they're much appreciated!



If I have various ratings for a fighter, I use those in negotiations on if other fighters agree to face them & then who gets to be the home based fighter?



For instance I used the 5 rated Indongo back in May vs. the 4 rated Ray Mancini. Julius wanted the fight & I could picture him being overconfident, maybe not training as hard since he's younger & so much longer. Had the 2 met in their primes, Julius probably blows Ray away.

[Cap]

To anyone who is still part of the test team:

1. Are you in touch with Paul Norman?

2. Is work still being done on the "new version" by anyone?

3. Baseball season is pretty much over so there is no excuse to avoid working on the so-called new version. If something was being done to complete this game we suckers should have heard something by now.

Cap

[IceTea]

To be honest, I don't follow any of the universe threads religiously. I read caps on occasion because it's good reading. I don't remember browsing your spice-o-life thread but I did so today. I downloaded one of your boxers and it was very good work.

Originally Posted by professordp

That raises a question that I've wondered about since I first joined this forum ten years ago...how do one's ratings get into the official database?


If my memory serves me well, my very first post concerned the failure to include the original Battling Torres (circa, late 50's-early 60's) in the official database. Subsequently, I had rated him a number a years ago. I'm not sure he ever got into the database.


In my "Spice O' Life" thread, which is exclusively for ratings, I made numerous adjustments to the official database ratings (i.e., Terry Kruger, Harley Breshears, and LaMar Clark, to name just a few). These revisions were generally received positively by members. Yet, they never made it into the official database.


I also received positive responses for my revisions of both Bobick brothers, Dick Wipperman, and a host of others. I don't think any of them made it to the official database either.


Finally, I rated many boxers who were overlooked by the initial ratings team but deserved a place in the game, considering what's in the official database. Yet they were somehow not included in the official database.


The only fighter that I rated that was included in the official pool was Skinny Jimmy Rothwell. But I was never given credit for that one...LOL!.


Here's the larger question I have for you. Earlier in this thread, you bemoaned the fact that the initial group of raters sort of fell by the wayside. So does that mean that the official database is simply the exclusive domain of Bear and you (with Jackyle as an occasional contributor)? Or can anyone join.


How exactly does this all work? Through the years there have been a number of excellent threads devoted to ratings. Do you ever look at them, or are the ratings contained in the official database simply the product of Bear, Jackyle, and you?

[Rob Morris]

Richard Hanna was the main programmer on the latest version of Legends of Boxing.