George Chuvalo - Very Sad Situation

[Cap]

Just found out about this from a tweet from a friend of his. Should be a third party involved who can act on behalf of Chuvalo.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...dge-rules.html

Cap

[Rob Morris]

Very sad indeed, I heard an interview with him just a few years ago and he seemed pretty lucid and eloquent.

[Cap]

Apparently he was pretty good up until about three years ago.

Cap

[Rob Morris]

He is brilliant in The Facing Ali documentary, him and Ron Lyle steal the show.

[professordp]

Sad about Chuvalo! Sometimes it takes years for concussive brain damage to manifest to the degree that a person can't function.


And George took a lot of shots in his career.


Baseball went to mandatory batting helmets about sixty years ago; football helmets came a long way from the leather headgear in the early days; and hockey players have had to wear helmets for the past three decades.


So what about boxing? In comparison to the above mentioned sports, boxing has to be number one when it comes to brain damage. Getting hit countless times on an unprotected head with fists with only eight ounces of padding isn't healthy for the grey matter.


The obvious solution would be protective headgear. Only problem is that most boxing fans never laced up a pair of mitts in their lives. And why should we deny them the opportunity to live vicariously through the
the pain and suffering of others.


There would be fewer knockouts and cuts if fighters wore headgear. Then again, there would be fewer fighters who wind up like George Chuvalo.

[Cap]

Statistically there is a high probability amongst men to get some form of dementia once you hit 70 especially if one of your parents had it. George was good well into his seventies. Just the luck of the draw.

I know a lady who never took a punch in her life who is in advanced stages and she's only 68.

The statistics on Alzheimer's and other forms of dementia in North America are pretty scary.

Cap

[pilight]

Pat Summitt died from Alzheimer's at 64.

As far as headgear goes, it doesn't work. Studies from the AIBA and the British Journal of Sports Medicine both showed more concussions in boxers using headgear than in those that didn't.

I always think of one of the oldest adages in boxing: there's no safe way to get hit in the head.

[professordp]

Originally Posted by Cap

Statistically there is a high probability amongst men to get some form of dementia once you hit 70 especially if one of your parents had it. George was good well into his seventies. Just the luck of the draw.

I know a lady who never took a punch in her life who is in advanced stages and she's only 68.

The statistics on Alzheimer's and other forms of dementia in North America are pretty scary.

Cap

I think that getting hit in the head frequently would increase the incidence of brain trauma. Yeah, Glenn Campbell and Charlton Heston suffered from Alzheimer's, and that's the case with many who never entered a boxing ring.


I'm sorry that I can't accept it just being the "luck of the draw". Look at the studies of brain damage with American football players in recent years.


You might want to look into dementia pugilistica.

[professordp]

Originally Posted by pilight

Pat Summitt died from Alzheimer's at 64.

As far as headgear goes, it doesn't work. Studies from the AIBA and the British Journal of Sports Medicine both showed more concussions in boxers using headgear than in those that didn't.

I always think of one of the oldest adages in boxing: there's no safe way to get hit in the head.

Before I can accept your contention, I'd have to see these studies for myself.


In essence you're claiming it's safer to get hit in the head with no protection than wearing something that cushions the blow. With all due respect, that's a ridiculous proposition.


By that logic, the NFL should go back to leather helmets to deal with their concussion problems...less is better?


Provide me with the citations for both studies and perhaps I'll change my mind.

[pilight]

The one from the BJSM is here:

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/47/5/250

The AIBA study is here:

https://journals.lww.com/cjsportsmed...&type=abstract

Both were sited by the IOC when they removed headgear from Olympic boxing

[professordp]

Originally Posted by pilight

The one from the BJSM is here:

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/47/5/250

The AIBA study is here:

https://journals.lww.com/cjsportsmed...&type=abstract

Both were sited by the IOC when they removed headgear from Olympic boxing

Thank you for the article citations. I'll read them over and respond.

[Cap]

I seem to recall someone saying it made the amateurs more reckless thinking they were more protected from knockouts. Probably helps protects from certain cuts though. Maybe they should go back to five-ounce gloves as bigger gloves really protect hands more than heads.

Cap

[pilight]

Originally Posted by Cap

I seem to recall someone saying it made the amateurs more reckless thinking they were more protected from knockouts. Probably helps protects from certain cuts though. Maybe they should go back to five-ounce gloves as bigger gloves really protect hands more than heads.

Cap

The biggest thing is that refs and doctors are slower to stop fights with headgear. Fighters with headgear get hit more because the fights go longer. The latest research suggests the number of blows to the head is more important than the force level when it comes to developing CTE.

[epidemika]

In 2016, George Chuvalo was abducted from his matrimonial home by a group of people that included a family member from his first marriage and a security guard by the name of Tom Doyle. George was told he was being taken to Muhammad Ali's funeral. George never arrived at the funeral and never returned home. His wife of 24 years, Joanne Chuvalo, called 9-1-1 to report his abduction, but police let the car containing George leave without speaking with his wife or her attorney. Since then, Joanne Chuvalo has been prevented from knowing where her husband is. She administers a Facebook group dedicated to the goal of returning her husband home and raising awareness about issues of elder abuse and undue influence.

By the time George was abducted, the children from his prior marriage had already used power of attorney to force their father's divorce from his current wife. When George was notified that his children were trying to force his divorce without his consent, he tried to prevent them from getting away with it by revoking their power of attorney. George's revocation was sent to his children's lawyer, but she refused to withdraw and instead continued pursuing the divorce against his wishes. A complaint against the children's attorney has been filed with the Law Society of Ontario. A documentary detailing his children's interference with his marriage is also in the works. Feel free to join the Facebook group to view George's revocation and for more information about the case. Joanne Chuvalo is doing everything she can to get her husband back.

[epidemika]

Here's the Facebook group link:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1538877719514004/

[professordp]

Originally Posted by pilight

Pat Summitt died from Alzheimer's at 64.

As far as headgear goes, it doesn't work. Studies from the AIBA and the British Journal of Sports Medicine both showed more concussions in boxers using headgear than in those that didn't.

I always think of one of the oldest adages in boxing: there's no safe way to get hit in the head.

I've read both the studies you've referenced, and my specific comments appear below. If I were to say that this is comparing apples to oranges, I'd be intellectually dishonest.


Instead, I contend that we're really comparing cucumbers to pickles. Like a cucumber, the amateur boxer is fresh off the vine while the professional fighter has been age in brine and has developed a more complex nature as you'd find in a pickle. I'll elaborate as I go along.

The British Journal of Sports Medicine article doesn't mention boxing at all. In reference to headgear it states, "No new valid evidence was provided the use a current standard headgear in rugby, or of mouth guards in American football, can significantly reduce players' risk of concussion" (p. 17). How do I correlate rugby or American football with boxing?


In contrast, the Clinical Journal of Sports Medicine focuses exclusively on amateur boxing. On page three, the study states, "Studies have shown the presence of headgear reduces the force transmitted to the head." It then qualifies this statement by postulating that headgear increases the incidence of head blows because "the padding around the eyes limits a boxer's vision" (p, 4). The headgear they're referring to is the traditional type that's used in sparring sessions and isn't meant for a formal match (see p. 2).


So does this mean we can't design head protection that doesn't obscure a fighter's vision? We live in in an innovative age! There's a vague reference on page four to the "many different head guards" that have been tried, but the authors don't discuss the results of such experimentations.


The article goes on to argue that headgear encourages "risk taking" through a false sense of security. Although it isn't spelled out in the article, I'd infer that they mean carrying your hands low to protect the body and engage in "headhunting". I don't doubt that a novice amateur might follow that course of action.


But for a seasoned professional boxer, it's an entirely different matter. Early on in their careers they're schooled in the rudimentary principle, "kill the body and the head will die." You don't last very long in pro boxing if you don't follow this cardinal-rule.


Regardless, there's no supporting data to this inference concerning head shots and headgear cited by the authors. Did anyone actually quantify the number of punches to the head for headgear versus non-headgear users? If it exists, the authors didn't present it.
Thus, without sustaining quantitative it's just an hypotheses.


The entire study, in my view, is devalued by the authors' admission, "Limitations include the small sample size and the use of stoppages due to blows as a surrogate for concussion" (p. 4).


When the authors state there's a small sample size, they're conceding that the results don't count for much and there's a need for additional research. In the end, the study considers only sixty-six total stoppages. Thus a small sample size doesn't produce statistically significant results.


Using stoppage due to blows to the head as a surrogate to concussion strikes me as a major flaw in the study. In essence they're claiming a stoppage equals a concussion which is a totally absurd proposition. A fight can be stopped without the loser suffering a concussion.


The article offers no data with regard to how many concussion were actually experienced. More importantly, there's no statistical analysis comparing concussions in relation to wearing or not wearing headgear.


During my thirty-six years in academia, I've read literally thousands of professional journal articles and have come across far too many that suffered from confirmation bias. This is when a researcher has a preconceived theory and unconsciously shapes his findings and methodology to confirm his position, That's the bin in which I've toss this study.


Let me put this article in perspective. It's all of five pages with two pages dedicated to an abstract and references. So we're only talking about three pages of "meat". It's a study based upon three amateur competitions where fighters box a maximum of five three-minute rounds. To attempt to transpose this into something related to professional boxing is ludicrous.


I'll close with my cucumber and pickle comparison. Five rounds is something the usually takes place in his first year or two as a prelim boxer. If he's any good and he stays in the game, he graduates to eight and then ten rounds. If he's exceptional, it's on to twelve and ultimately fifteen rounds. That's a lot more shots to the head than an amateur takes in the course of a fight.


Additionally, I could be wrong, but I'd say that an amateur career lasts a couple of years. A mediocre, run-of-the-mill, professional usually hangs up the mitts after as decade of pro combat. Once again, that's a lot more shots to the head than an amateur takes in a career.


Finally, the study fails to deal with dementia pugilistica, a type of CTE, which develops as a result of blows to the head over a sustained period of time.