Hernandez at short?

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by bailey

So, in theory, what kind of defense ratings could Brock Holt get at each of the positions he plays? 100 in all of them?

From what I understand, you can only give your players experience at different positions, you cannot improve their underlying ratings such as IF Range, IF Error, IF Arm and Turn DP or OF Range, OF Error, OF Arm. You only add experience. In the single player game, it takes 200 games to reach the max position rating based on the underlying ratings. I'm not sure if it works the same in PT, but I would guess it does.

[Splitter24]

Since this thread is about Keith Hernandez's defense, I figured I would post this here.

I have a team with both 1979 Keith Hernandez and 1980 Cecil Cooper. They're both only rated at first base. Hernandez has a little bit better rating in every defensive category than Cooper, yet Cooper's overall defensive rating is 81 while Hernandez is a 79. Why is that?

[One Post Wonder]

Originally Posted by Splitter24

Since this thread is about Keith Hernandez's defense, I figured I would post this here.

I have a team with both 1979 Keith Hernandez and 1980 Cecil Cooper. They're both only rated at first base. Hernandez has a little bit better rating in every defensive category than Cooper, yet Cooper's overall defensive rating is 81 while Hernandez is a 79. Why is that?

It means that Cooper is more experienced at playing first base than Hernandez is.

Your defensive rating at a position is a direct measure how much experience a player has there. But the highest rating a player can have at a position is dictated by those defensive categories. So Mo Vaughn would never be rated 100 at 1b no matter how much he plays there, because he wouldn't have the necessary range.

But what your case implies is that Keith should still be able to gain more rating at 1b. If you play him there, his rating should still go up. If he never gets as good as Cecil Cooper than that's a bug IMO.

[One Post Wonder]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

I don't agree, considering it was a bug that LH players were ever allowed to learn other infield positions. They shouldn't leave bugs in the game forever.

I didn't mean that, since Keith is the only such player I can think of who would both hit better than a good shortstop and play defense well enough to hang there. It wouldn't impact more than a couple of players.

I was talking more about some of the other suggestions I've seen (not just on this thread) which would severely penalize players who are out of position, or prevent people from learning other positions all together. Widescale changes like that in a live game would do more harm than good.

[Bluehead]

Just stumbled upon this threat, I'm the owner of the New York Magpies I've been wondered what you've changed regarding the left handed shortstops like my Hernandez. Did you just disable the ability of left handed infielders to gain experience at SS or did you change how they perform ingame aswell?

[DonkeyKongSr]

Originally Posted by Bluehead

Just stumbled upon this threat, I'm the owner of the New York Magpies I've been wondered what you've changed regarding the left handed shortstops like my Hernandez. Did you just disable the ability of left handed infielders to gain experience at SS or did you change how they perform ingame aswell?

He'll no longer have any Position Rating at SS and will perform extremely poorly. All SS, 2B, and 3B will need to be right-handed, just like 100% of current MLB players and 99.9% of all MLB players all-time.

[CrazyWR]

well you seem fun

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

It means that Cooper is more experienced at playing first base than Hernandez is.

Your defensive rating at a position is a direct measure how much experience a player has there. But the highest rating a player can have at a position is dictated by those defensive categories. So Mo Vaughn would never be rated 100 at 1b no matter how much he plays there, because he wouldn't have the necessary range.

But what your case implies is that Keith should still be able to gain more rating at 1b. If you play him there, his rating should still go up. If he never gets as good as Cecil Cooper than that's a bug IMO.

1B is one position that there are other minor factors at play in defense too. I believe player height is a small modifier, so if Cooper is taller that might be enough boost to be a couple points better.

[Bill Veeck]

This thread is another reason I love OOTP. What a great community and what great discussions. PT may not be perfect at this point, but it's amazing and going to be fascinating to watch it grow and change

[max venerabel]

Just to add to this discussion, I'm training a historical gold glove RF to play center field. Its going slowly.

So far, in a couple moths of work, he's gone from 0 to 35, and my ability to prevent runs is definitely feeling it. I guess what I'm hearing, however, is that there's no penalty from moving down the defensive spectrum, etc. He has ratings in outfield range, arm and error prevention that should make him a 70-80ish rated CF, based on what I'm seeing from other players... so can I assume he will eventually get there?

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by max venerabel

Just to add to this discussion, I'm training a historical gold glove RF to play center field. Its going slowly.

So far, in a couple moths of work, he's gone from 0 to 35, and my ability to prevent runs is definitely feeling it. I guess what I'm hearing, however, is that there's no penalty from moving down the defensive spectrum, etc. He has ratings in outfield range, arm and error prevention that should make him a 70-80ish rated CF, based on what I'm seeing from other players... so can I assume he will eventually get there?

I've trained an Ichiro card to play CF and his rating was 87 in RF. He only got up to 63 in CF and I think that's as high as it's going to get.

[SJM1583]

Originally Posted by Bluehead

Just stumbled upon this threat, I'm the owner of the New York Magpies I've been wondered what you've changed regarding the left handed shortstops like my Hernandez. Did you just disable the ability of left handed infielders to gain experience at SS or did you change how they perform ingame aswell?

I don't like this change. Maybe put a CAP on the rating of lefties trying to play 2B/3B/SS - but particularly with the shorter throws at 2B I don't see why a guy with good range can't at least have a rating there - Keith would be a better 2B/SS than lets say Mo Vaughn, but you can train Vaughn there and get him at least SOME rating

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by SJM1583

I don't like this change. Maybe put a CAP on the rating of lefties trying to play 2B/3B/SS - but particularly with the shorter throws at 2B I don't see why a guy with good range can't at least have a rating there - Keith would be a better 2B/SS than lets say Mo Vaughn, but you can train Vaughn there and get him at least SOME rating

As long as the cap is that they'll be unplayable there, then I'm fine with that. Still, it's a waste of time. It would be like trying to train deGrom to pitch with his other arm. The most athletic left handed fielder would always be excruciatingly slow in throwing to 1B simply because batters run around the bases counter clockwise. They would have to spend about 5 times the time in turning around to get anything on a throw as a comparable right handed player.

[Dogberry99]

Originally Posted by SJM1583

Maybe put a CAP on the rating of lefties trying to play 2B/3B/SS

Had they gone this route, it would have been similar to how short players at 1B are penalized for their lack of height.

Personally, I would have rather seen garbage infield arm ratings for all southpaws, either the main arm rating or a hidden modifier for arm rating based on the position. Penalize the crap out of Mattingly's arm at 3B, but he was good enough in spite of that to play 3B in an emergency ahead of other infielders. He definitely lost arm effectiveness, but he still had range that he could have learned to use.


Ultimately though, I think the ban on southpaws is probably overkill, but it also doesn't really make a difference one way or the other. Real life has self-sorted itself well enough that this only applies to good fielding first basemen, and none of those players have ratings that are sufficient to play other positions well anyways.

[SJM1583]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

As long as the cap is that they'll be unplayable there, then I'm fine with that. Still, it's a waste of time. It would be like trying to train deGrom to pitch with his other arm. The most athletic left handed fielder would always be excruciatingly slow in throwing to 1B simply because batters run around the bases counter clockwise. They would have to spend about 5 times the time in turning around to get anything on a throw as a comparable right handed player.

Sure, but Keith would at least get to the ball that a strong-armed righty with the range of a statue - lets call him Shmerek Shmeter - would never even get a glove on. and some of those balls turn into outs too.