Catcher ability in OOTP 13

[The Wolf]

Note that in my signature I am expressing my wish for Markus to add the ability buy and sell players. I'm sure that this will appear in some future version, maybe next year, maybe in OOTP 18 or so. In the meantime I will keep supporting the series.

[RchW]

I continue to marvel at how he gets this done. Anybody complaining about the additional people at OOTPD now? To me it seems clear that Markus has had some time to make significant changes in some core features. Brilliant!!

[The Wolf]

I'm delighted to know for certain that Markus reads Baseball Prospectus. There's tons of useful, applicable stuff to be found there. It makes me really hopeful about future versions of OOTP.

[oman19]

Originally Posted by SWardle

Hmmm. Well, finally a new feature that I've wanted for a long time. It appears I won't get enhancements to the way the game tracks history but at least there has been a bigger significance placed on catcher defense. If I am still as excited by this feature tomorrow as I am right now, I will pre-order. I am going to sleep on it to decide if this feature is really worth it. I mean, not buying the game seemed to work for the crowd that wanted associations and custom playoffs so maybe it will work for those of us that want enhancements to history tracking. I gotta decide if I want to sell out or not.

Now that customizable playoffs are coming expanding the history the game tracks is the next big thing on my wishlist. (Team vs Team standings over the history of the league being the big one for me)

I know Markus and co. listen though and does his best to get us the best game possiable and I will keep supporting him until I feel that changes. (Which I highly doubt will happen.)

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I'm delighted to know for certain that Markus reads Baseball Prospectus. There's tons of useful, applicable stuff to be found there. It makes me really hopeful about future versions of OOTP.

I've been a subscriber at BP for 8 years now

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Reikazawa

Yea, the effect is certainly real. Where we should take caution is taking the results of those studies as if they are true talent levels. Molina is not 3 wins better than the average catcher in framing. 3 wins is the observed result from the sample; regressing that will give you the true talent.

This is the hardest thing for me to grasp. I mean Ryan Howard is a 3 win player. Its hard for me to imagine framing pitches can be as important to a team as Ryan Howard is. I think its a great concept but I just dont know if we can safely say framing pitches is as important as initial claims are saying. As long as he is using caution I cant wait for this. Catchers handeling of pitchers did need some love and it is finally here.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

I've been a subscriber at BP for 8 years now

Only eight years?

Rookie.

[The Wolf]

Actually, Markus, that information is very pleasing. Future versions will surely keep getting better and will be more refined.

As usual, good job.

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Yes, but some people didn't seem to read the part where he wrote "Yes. I did indeed use values slightly lower than the BP article suggested. I basically took the average out of all the research results I could find..."

That comment came in response to the concern expressed, not before it.

[tigey75]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

This is the hardest thing for me to grasp. I mean Ryan Howard is a 3 win player. Its hard for me to imagine framing pitches can be as important to a team as Ryan Howard is. I think its a great concept but I just dont know if we can safely say framing pitches is as important as initial claims are saying. As long as he is using caution I cant wait for this. Catchers handeling of pitchers did need some love and it is finally here.

I think having a good catcher is definitely worth at least 3 wins a year. I never really paid attention to it much until certain pitchers started having their preferred guy, like Maddux. If Greg Maddux prefers a catcher, there is something to it!

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

I've been a subscriber at BP for 8 years now

Hah! This means that you have access to all the data you need to properly value players in differing financial, league, and team environments (including seasonal win expectation effects) so I will be awaiting the ability to buy and sell players expectantly.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by tigey75

I think having a good catcher is definitely worth at least 3 wins a year. I never really paid attention to it much until certain pitchers started having their preferred guy, like Maddux. If Greg Maddux prefers a catcher, there is something to it!

Somebody might even ask our own very gehrig38 (aka Curt Schilling) about this issue. I'll bet that he has a strong opinion on the matter.

[OutS|der]

a catcher should have an influence.
It was the catcher, Jake Taylor who turned Rick Vaughn onto the need to wear glasses and Crash Davis was there to calm Nuke LaLoosh down so glad to see that will be reflected in OOTP

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

Originally Posted by tigey75

I think having a good catcher is definitely worth at least 3 wins a year. I never really paid attention to it much until certain pitchers started having their preferred guy, like Maddux. If Greg Maddux prefers a catcher, there is something to it!

The question isn't whether having a "good catcher" is worth 3 wins. It's whether framing, specifically, is worth 3 wins.

I agree that a framing effect is real, I just think the concern, as expressed before, is making sure that its impact is at an appropriate scale.

[tigey75]

Originally Posted by Cinnamon J. Scudworth

The question isn't whether having a "good catcher" is worth 3 wins. It's whether framing, specifically, is worth 3 wins.

I'd venture a guess and assume "bad" catchers aren't great at framing. I'll take Molina over Josh Thole any day of the week even if Molina bats .230

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

Originally Posted by tigey75

I'd venture a guess and assume "bad" catchers aren't great at framing. I'll take Molina over Josh Thole any day of the week even if Molina bats .230

Correct, but other defensive qualities of a "good catcher" have already been captured within OOTP's catcher rating. The question specifically being asked here is what is the added marginal benefit of framing skill.

[tigey75]

Originally Posted by Cinnamon J. Scudworth

Correct, but other defensive qualities of a "good catcher" have already been captured within OOTP's catcher rating. The question specifically being asked here is what is the added marginal benefit of framing skill.

True, Molina is also great at throwing out potential base stealers and that has been factored in already. You're right though, it's a delicate balance of making it a subtle team improvement without catchers becoming demi-gods within the game.

[The Wolf]

I'm still trying to figure out what all the post-announcement bickering is about. Markus uses rigorous studies to implement a new feature that reflects something missing and needed in the game, he specifically addressed any concerns about extreme effects, and yet people continue to second-guess him?

Nothing more to see here, guys. Move along.

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I'm still trying to figure out what all the post-announcement bickering is about. Markus uses rigorous studies to implement a new feature that reflects something missing and needed in the game, he specifically addressed any concerns about extreme effects, and yet people continue to second-guess him?

Nothing more to see here, guys. Move along.

I think now I'm just bickering about you claiming people are bickering. I see no bickering, really. Just people expressing a legitimate concern (the skill is real but its actual impact is still quite fuzzy), which Markus addressed.

[CBL-Commish]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I'm still trying to figure out what all the post-announcement bickering is about. Markus uses rigorous studies to implement a new feature that reflects something missing and needed in the game, he specifically addressed any concerns about extreme effects, and yet people continue to second-guess him?

Nothing more to see here, guys. Move along.

I think you need to be cautious and conservative when implementing features based on some recent studies that appear to indicate a fairly large shift in how the game is interpreted and OOTP implements this. Just based on framing we'll now have the spread between two catchers in the game go from zero wins and zero runs to five wins/fifty runs. A catcher you had in OOTP12 who was worth 0 WAR might now be a marginal all star, while your marginal all star from last year might barely be holding onto his job.

Forgive us if we reserve a bit of skepticism and have some reservations before wholeheartedly embracing this.

I'll always go back to Bill James' statement that any stat that is consistently surprising is probably wrong. I'm not saying this effect is wrong, but some of the results are fairly surprising, or at least very different from the assumptions we'd made a year or two ago.

Plus, I want to be able to turn this off in my league that features robot umps who are unaffected by framing!