New storyline idea

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Maybe you should read the whole story and not just the first sentence.

They did it. They admitted it. The MLB knows they did it. The FBI knows they did it. ESPN knows they did it. Small things that live in the bottom of the oceanic abyssal deeps know they did it.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Raidergoo

Whatever happened, it's so unprecedented and massive that St. Louis preemptively surrendered.

It's the biggest scandal in baseball history.

[ThatSeventiesGuy]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

It's the biggest scandal in baseball history.

Okay, I was with you up until THAT one. That's trolling a bit. Black Sox, anyone? Nobody threw any games here, so while it's bad, it still isn't that bad, barring unforeseen revelations.

[ThatSeventiesGuy]

Originally Posted by Orcin

I don't know anything about your work experience, but I can tell you from my own background that this is totally unrealistic. A manager cannot be expected to know the 24/7 activities of every person working for him. Is he supposed to be in their homes snooping on them? That invasion of privacy would be worse than the alleged crimes.

If the reports are true, the activities took place on a computer in a home shared by several Cardinals employees. It is unknown whether there were multiple employees involved or just one. One lone person working at a computer could be hacking the Astros, surfing porn, or stealing credit cards - and there is no way John Mozeliak, or even the other residents of the home, could or should be expected to know about these activities.

You can fall on your sword if you want, but you should at least be reasonable about it.

In most real-life work situations, you'd have a point. But since this is on such a huge media stage...

This is more akin to if a Senator's campaign staffer does something illegal, like, say, accepting illegal contributions, or, dare I say, hacking a political opponent's e-mail. The Senator's still gonna take the heat, because the press can and should ask, "What did he know, and when did he know it?" Same with Mozeliak, and to a slightly lesser extent, DeWitt. Nixon didn't raid Democrat HQ at the Watergate hotel all by himself. It's what he knew that got him caught. It's the culture you set up. That whole "computer at a home shared by several employees" sounds like a situation ripe for abuse to me, and he should have at minimum known better than to allow that.

We shall see what happens. I still think at least one big Cardinal head is gonna have to roll, and Mo's the likeliest candidate. Too bad, because I think he's been one of the best GMs in baseball over the last decade, but them's the breaks, I guess.

The main thing here isn't anyone trolling or not trolling (although if you think that Wolf's trolling here, you haven't seen many comments on articles about this thing yet. Ouch!). The thing that must be admitted here, is this looks bad, and makes the trolls and haters look right in the eyes of others. It's a black eye on an organization that prides itself on doing things the right way, which is one of the things I've always admired about this team. This is not the right way, and I personally want anyone with even the stench of this scandal on 'em out the door. I'll wait and see what happens, but this looks bad, and I can't fool myself into thinking any other way right now. As much as I'd love to be proven wrong, it's looking less likely by the hour.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by ThatSeventiesGuy

Okay, I was with you up until THAT one. That's trolling a bit. Black Sox, anyone? Nobody threw any games here, so while it's bad, it still isn't that bad, barring unforeseen revelations.

That one didn't involve the FBI, multiple federal crimes and prison time. This one does.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by ThatSeventiesGuy

if you think that Wolf's trolling here, you haven't seen many comments on articles about this thing yet.

Exactly.

[CatKnight]

Sorry, Orcin. I know you're a Cardinals fan, and I have a great deal of respect for you, but I think Wolf's more or less right here. This really puts the Cardinals in a bad light, and the penalty has to be severe if MLB wants to be taken seriously about it.

[Raidergoo]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

It's the biggest scandal in baseball history.

I am comfortable rating this episode as the 4th worst baseball scandal of all time, based on the data we know today. I think the worst scandals in baseball history are the color bar, the throwing of the 1919 World Series, and 1980s owner collusion of free agent wages.

I think this is worse than the Pittsburgh drug trials but not as bad as Rose betting on baseball.

[IsaacR]

Does it put the Cardinals in a bad light? Yes.
Does it demand severe penalties? Maybe.
Is it the biggest scandal in baseball history? Not even close. Old information gained through hacking, even if it does carry prison time, doesn't even come close to the Black Sox, Pete Rose, or Kirk Radomski scandals.
Could it have been a few rouge interns and low level employees? Absolutely. This doesn't call for Mozeliak's head unless it's proven that he had or should've had direct knowledge of said attacks.

I also think this should be moved to Talk Sports.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by CatKnight

Sorry, Orcin. I know you're a Cardinals fan, and I have a great deal of respect for you, but I think Wolf's more or less right here. This really puts the Cardinals in a bad light, and the penalty has to be severe if MLB wants to be taken seriously about it.

You do realize that no charges have been filed, right? It's amazing to me that otherwise intelligent people can lose their ability to reason when confronted by a stream of vitriol from trolls and a heaping mound of conjecture by 24/7 media who have to fill air time with something.

I am not suggesting that a guilty Cardinals organization would deserve no punishment. I am saying that we don't know the facts.

IF (and that's a reeeally big IF) it is proven that Bill Dewitt and/or John Mozeliak ordered the hacking to gain a competitive advantage or get even with Luhnow, then I will be ashamed of this organization and agree that the punishment should be severe. If it is proven that some employee or group of employees, acting alone without the knowledge of upper management, performed the crime, then I will believe that the Cardinals were the victims of someone's poor judgment or at worst made a bad hiring decision.

Something in between? Well then, let's see what it is and I will tell you what I think of it. But I will not condemn and sentence anyone based on pure conjecture and media hype. The Cardinals' upper management has said they were not involved and I think they deserve to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.

Sincerely,
BFIB

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by IsaacR

I also think this should be moved to Talk Sports.

Of course it should have been started in Talk Sports. But the troll that started the thread knew he would get more attention here.

[Ruthian23]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Well, denying bad password usage as being part of the matter wouldn't surprise me. Who would want to admit to it? Especially when it led to such serious consequences?

I think he brought some other people from STL with him, so it could have been one of them who was the password guy rather than the GM himself.

[cody8200]

In the modern era, the only thing I think is close to this is the steroid scandals. Did you read the kind of information they had access to? They knew what players each and every team was interested in trading, what the GM's were looking for based on what they communicated to the Houston GM/owner, and that's just what has been publicly released. It's akin to having someone look over the shoulder of someone you're playing high stakes poker with and relaying what's in their hand. This information could absolutely be used to win championships - it makes the deflategate crap look like child's play. It needs to be dealt with severely.

[Ruthian23]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

That one didn't involve the FBI, multiple federal crimes and prison time. This one does.

Biggest criminal action in baseball history, maybe, but I definitely don't think it's a bigger scandal than the Black Sox at the very least.

[David Watts]

I'm now very suspicious that all those errors in the 2006 World Series were more than just fielding lapses by Tiger pitchers . If the Cardinals can hack a computer, could they also be experts in the field of voodoo? Yup that has to be it...... Oh and is it possible that Kenny Rogers wasn't even responsible or even aware that foreign substance was on his hand? I now think the Cardinals probably hired someone to break into Kenny's hotel room and.......

[IsaacR]

Originally Posted by msupoke

Also, they did not do this for sh!ts and giggles. The information was used, and the front office had to have known.

Very possible that they just did it for no competitive reason. The working theory - from what I've read - is that it was a disgruntled group of employees who did not care for their former boss. If they wanted a competitive advantage, why the Astros, who they haven't played since the hack? Why not the Cubs or Reds or Pirates?


I'm not even sure you can call this a scandal at this point. It's more a joke that will end up with the Cards getting fined and a couple of people fired, while the rest of the baseball world laughs about "the best hackers in baseball" and "the Cards sure are getting their hacks in."

[Padreman]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

It's the biggest scandal in baseball history.

Like mentioned Blaxk Sox Scandal but come on steroid era? So many precious records tainted now. And the government even had to step in

[The Wolf]

Only this one will result in federal criminal charges.

[IsaacR]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Only this one will result in federal criminal charges.

So did the Kirk Radomski scandal, the BALCO scandal, and the rest of the steroid era. Clemens and Bonds ring any bells?

[The Wolf]

And I really think that this crime will make a great storyline for OOTP 17. Much better than the semi-Wilpon Ponzi scheme.