Track manual edits to players - Page 4

Sabermetric Baseball · 02-18-2013, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

Links to said threads please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Got any proof you were cheated by an online commissioner? And a name?
No, of course you don't.

Plenty of proof in the above threads. Look up Michael Fitterer, not only was he outed but they also stalked down all of his personal information.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Up here in Canada

Looking over the numerous threads on this forum over the years about this very subject would indicate that the problem is real and that the concern is valid whether cheating is widespread or not.
For someone to suggest that burglars exist but that someone wouldn't cheat on an online game when it would be easy to do so makes absolutely no sense to me; that is delusional, nonsensical thinking.

qft

VanillaGorilla · 02-18-2013, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byzeil

If scouting is on it shows changes in what your scout thinks of a player but that is no guarantee that the underlying ratings have changed or not.

If scouting is on for the league, then you couldn't see a record of when a player actually went up or down because if your scout doesn't see the change (or projects in the opposite direction) you have lost the whole reason for using scouting in the first place.

I'm back to thinking a simple report logging user changes is a good idea*.

I think it's sad that some people can't trust others in an on-line environment. How very very very sad for them. Their lives are so miserable being filled with paranoia and doubt....come on people!....oh, wait....my gf is calling....gotta take this....it won't be long before her last name is no longer Kekua!!!

Up here in Canada · 02-18-2013, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Links please. I've been here since 6.5 and have never once heard of an online commissioner cheating with secret edits.

Just Google 'cheating commisioners in OOTP' and 'Out of the Park cheating' etc. and you will see the concerns have been there forever......and why wouldn't they be?

Clearly there is something else going on here, you're not making much sense. Are you a commissioner? Are you in an online league and are you manipulating league outcomes with the commissioner? How do you know, for sure, that a league that you play in is play in is on the up and up? Prove that it is.

I have to wonder about a person that in one instance can cite extreme examples of antisocial behavior like driving a vehicle into someones living room or chainsawing through a door to gain access to someone's valuables yet doesn't think someone would cheat on an online game when the opportunity to do so could go could go so easily unnoticed.

VanillaGorilla · 02-18-2013, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabermetric Baseball

Plenty of proof in the above threads. Look up Michael Fitterer, not only was he outed but they also stalked down all of his personal information.

Whoa...this pretty much says it all, right? Or is it just my imagination??

Sabermetric Baseball · 02-18-2013, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Up here in Canada

Clearly there is something else going on here, you're not making much sense. Are you a commissioner? Are you in an online league and are you manipulating league outcomes with the commissioner? How do you know, for sure, that a league that you play in is play in is on the up and up? Prove that it is.

There is no ulterior motive, he just gets a kick out of trolling. If you look at some of the other threads in this forum, you'll see he didn't single this one out. He does the same thing in numerous threads - post a series of illogical responses with a confrontational tone to get people worked up, then disappear once they've been refuted. It's all a game to him, he probably agrees with the edit tracker idea.

tomwolf2008 · 02-18-2013, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byzeil

It may or may not be trivial but it is not imaginary. I was in a league where the commish was caught cheating and the league folded. So from first hand experience I know it has happened.

Yes, but the fact that you guys caught the guy (even have names) and caused the league folded means if someone is cheating it became evident very quickly so it might not be worth the programmer's time to try to code it in the game. And btw, I would be very annoyed if some sign randomly shows up on my player page if it's an edit that everyone agrees upon. So if this is in the game, it has to be optional, which kinda defeated your purpose, aren't it?

The Wolf · 02-18-2013, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabermetric Baseball

There is no ulterior motive, he just gets a kick out of trolling. If you look at some of the other threads in this forum, you'll see he didn't single this one out. He does the same thing in numerous threads - post a series of illogical responses with a confrontational tone to get people worked up, then disappear once they've been refuted. It's all a game to him, he probably agrees with the edit tracker idea.

Wrong on all counts. This is the first time I ever heard of it happening and I'm frankly stunned that it ever did happen. My apologies, I thought much better of the OOTP community than this. There's another piece of faith in my fellow humans lost forever.

And even so, I still think your idea of screwing up offline games is a bad one.

byzeil · 02-18-2013, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomwolf2008

Yes, but the fact that you guys caught the guy (even have names) and caused the league folded means if someone is cheating it became evident very quickly so it might not be worth the programmer's time to try to code it in the game. And btw, I would be very annoyed if some sign randomly shows up on my player page if it's an edit that everyone agrees upon. So if this is in the game, it has to be optional, which kinda defeated your purpose, aren't it?

This cheater was very stupid and confessed when confronted. If someone wanted to cheat and be intelligent about he could get away with it.

Regarding editing notes showing up on a player page: That is why I suggested earlier in the thread that all edits be recorded behind the scenes and there be a report that could be run on demand. So nothing shows up on player pages to 'ruin' anyone's experience.

I agree that if coding it would be too complicated and time consuming that it may not be worth it but only Marcus and Co. know what would be involved and I'd suggest leaving to them to decide if the time commitment is worth it.

Up here in Canada · 02-18-2013, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabermetric Baseball

There is no ulterior motive, he just gets a kick out of trolling.

I figured as much.

I've played this game off and on for a few years and just recently began playing it again. This time around I have found myself, as many on this forum put it, 'immersed' for several hours at a time. I'm beginning to see the addiction potential. At the same time, I like that 'human' competition. My experiences with online leagues with this and other games that didn't utilize a centralized server have been poor. The time will come when this game franchise goes, in some form or another, online with a server. I also do not believe that cheating in online games is rampant but it would be foolish to think that it does not exist. As someone suggested earlier, you have to decide whether or not online OOTP gaming, in it's current format, is for you or not.

Now if you'll excuse me, someone appears to be at the front door. I have to get there before they fire up that chainsaw they are carrying.

The Wolf · 02-18-2013, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Up here in Canada

I figured as much.

And you figured wrong.

Up here in Canada · 02-18-2013, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

And you figured wrong.

Figured what?

OutS|der · 02-19-2013, 03:32 AM

I still havn't seen a reason why i should have edits show up in MY offline game because you don't trust the commish in YOUR online league.

Why should i be forced to how these edits show up?
If it can be turned off and doesn't take much effort to add then sure otherwise i don't see why my game should be affected because you don't trust the league you are in

Bluenoser · 02-19-2013, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabermetric Baseball

Thank you for helping prove my point.

Bluenoser · 02-19-2013, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

Silly...anyone that wants to steal will steal. So why do they lock-up cigarettes at the supermarket? Why put money in a safe? All someone has to do is come in with an axe or dynamite and they will steal, so why bother?

There IS a record of changes to player ratings, as you noted. What you failed to note is that the method of change is not documented. What the heck is so wrong with color coding a change that is done by a user edit, for goodness sake??

ADD: Posted before reading through. Apologies, again.

Thank you for further proving my point.

David Watts · 02-19-2013, 08:06 AM

Couldn't a feature such as this be made so it was optional? Until the other day when someone brought it up, I forgot that Markus added the "are you sure you want to" deal to the game. It gets turned off the day I buy the game and I never even think about it.

The Wolf · 02-19-2013, 09:24 AM

Just don't desecrate the offline game with asterisks, colors or other crap

I'm still in shock. I thought better of you people.

David Watts · 02-19-2013, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Just don't desecrate the offline game with asterisks, colors or other crap

I'm still in shock. I thought better of you people.

I wouldn't want those asterisks either, but other than a nickname or 2, I never edit players.

D-BacksJosh · 02-19-2013, 10:01 AM

I can understand that when humans are involved in anything cheating is definitely a possibility. However, I agree that this option needs to be 'optional' for those like myself that do not play in online leagues. I don't want to see any edits that I make (if any). Maybe find an online league where the commissioner does not own a team, I know some of those exist.

fhomess · 02-19-2013, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byzeil

This cheater was very stupid and confessed when confronted. If someone wanted to cheat and be intelligent about he could get away with it.

Indeed. There are many ways to cheat in OOTP. The requested solution only addresses one of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by byzeil

Regarding editing notes showing up on a player page: That is why I suggested earlier in the thread that all edits be recorded behind the scenes and there be a report that could be run on demand. So nothing shows up on player pages to 'ruin' anyone's experience.

It would STILL need to be optional for online leagues. I can see an online league commish turning it on to help improve trust. However, it would actually break the house rules in some leagues. The PEBA, for example, has the option of improving a player's abilities by sending them to "winter ball". Those changes are not intended to be transparent to the GM. They're manually edited by the commish, but can fall in a range. I've been in other leagues where the commish will go through each ammy draft class and make changes to those players to accommodate their opinion on how players should enter the game.

There will always be cheaters in online leagues. There will always be people who are overly paranoid about cheaters, too. I've seen a commish accused of cheating in an online league where the commish didn't even own a team. The rest of the league basically laughed that GM out of there, and the league is still around several years (real time) later. We can discuss it here all we want, and most will not change their opinion on it significantly. I've been involved in a league that folded on suspicion of cheating as well, and the solution was to find a league I trusted. There are plenty out there, and they probably have an opening or two every offseason. That's just the normal cycle.

Some tips to finding a league you can feel good about:

1. Look for a league that's been around a while. Cheaters can usually make it for some time without getting caught, but eventually, the others start to pick up on things.

2. Thoroughly read the forums before joining. If the league doesn't give access to non-members, demand it as part of your vetting process. If they still won't give it, turn your attention elsewhere. Problems arise in every league. Find out how the league you're thinking of joining has handled them in the past.

3. Look for a league with a non-GM commish. Commishes who own teams can certainly be on the up-and-up, but there's a lot less incentive for a commish that doesn't have a team. These commishes are running the league because they like that aspect of the OOTP experience. Dog Days Baseball is one that immediately springs to mind. In the absence of this, a league with a governing board rather than all the power in the hands of one person is more likely to be stable and trustworthy. The PEBA shifted to this model after our non-GM commish stepped down to pursue other interests.

4. In a league where the commish does own a team, check to see how his team has done. Commishes will typically have good teams simply by virtue of spending more time on the league than other GM's, but if anything looks untoward, then stay away. Commish teams should be expected to go through similar ups and downs as other teams.

5. Review the commish track record of your commish. Personally, I've never had a good experience joining a league at the very start of the league. New leagues fold all the time for reasons well beyond cheating. If you're planning to join a new league, and the commish has never commished before, you have a larger chance of seeing that league fold than if they have. Likewise, commishes with experience know what it takes to run a league and have probably learned some lessons from previous leagues.

The Wolf · 02-19-2013, 01:45 PM

^^ Great advice

02-19-2013, 03:32 AM	#72
OutS\|der Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: In A Van Down By The River Posts: 2,244	I still havn't seen a reason why i should have edits show up in MY offline game because you don't trust the commish in YOUR online league. Why should i be forced to how these edits show up? If it can be turned off and doesn't take much effort to add then sure otherwise i don't see why my game should be affected because you don't trust the league you are in

02-19-2013, 08:06 AM	#75
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 8,849	Couldn't a feature such as this be made so it was optional? Until the other day when someone brought it up, I forgot that Markus added the "are you sure you want to" deal to the game. It gets turned off the day I buy the game and I never even think about it.

02-19-2013, 10:01 AM	#78
D-BacksJosh Banned Join Date: May 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 875	I can understand that when humans are involved in anything cheating is definitely a possibility. However, I agree that this option needs to be 'optional' for those like myself that do not play in online leagues. I don't want to see any edits that I make (if any). Maybe find an online league where the commissioner does not own a team, I know some of those exist.