Historical Leagues - Page 2

changewand · 07-25-2014, 05:48 PM

I do think that the difficulty of running a historical league is balancing sim length against the desire to both 1) experience all the eras that you'll pass through while 2) ensuring that you'll still be on this earth by the time you sim yourself there

Simming too fast doesn't allow you the opportunity to enjoy the careers of individual players, while simming too slow doesn't allow you to get to the next generation of players.

However, I do think that there's a sweet spot in there for sim times. It helps to populate the owners with a love for baseball across eras who can enjoy the ride without getting bored or disconnect from their team waiting for the year that Mantle or Mays debuts.

Bristolduke · 07-26-2014, 08:16 AM

I am actually a big fan of historical baseball, but "how historical" is desired. As was pointed out, unless some balancing is done, only half the league will have any fun. Also, to be historical, re-calc needs to be used not OOTP player development. I have been in a couple that tried using development and when your favorite players go bust (e.g. Christy Mathewson is horrible and can't make a squad) then people lose interest.

The other side of re-calc is that you know what the player is close to performing before you start (e.g. 1 year wonders).

The other side of historical, is did you know that both Christy Mathewson and Babe Ruth should have started their careers in Cincinnati?

All that aside I'll throw this out. If there is 16 dedicated people who want a historical league, I can consider running it (particularly if I can have some help with the web site)

It would modify history in the following ways.

1. Start in 1901.
2. All teams would be on equal financial footing at the start,
3. Inaugural draft for all players.
4. Rookie draft for the new arrivals. (random draft order)
5. 1 year recalc.- to keep historical performance as close as possible.

Jestre · 07-26-2014, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bristolduke

I am actually a big fan of historical baseball, but "how historical" is desired. As was pointed out, unless some balancing is done, only half the league will have any fun. Also, to be historical, re-calc needs to be used not OOTP player development. I have been in a couple that tried using development and when your favorite players go bust (e.g. Christy Mathewson is horrible and can't make a squad) then people lose interest.

The other side of re-calc is that you know what the player is close to performing before you start (e.g. 1 year wonders).

The other side of historical, is did you know that both Christy Mathewson and Babe Ruth should have started their careers in Cincinnati?

All that aside I'll throw this out. If there is 16 dedicated people who want a historical league, I can consider running it (particularly if I can have some help with the web site)

It would modify history in the following ways.

1. Start in 1901.
2. All teams would be on equal financial footing at the start,
3. Inaugural draft for all players.
4. Rookie draft for the new arrivals.
5. 1 year recalc.- to keep historical performance as close as possible.

This is the ideal historical League format, finances should be kept equal or left out. As long as the commish is active and acts in the best interest of the league it will be successful. Specifically the commish should keep a close eye on trades and tanking, they are the two most league breaking factors. Tanking should always result in expulsion and trades that unbalance the competitive balance of the league should be denied by the commish.

Bristolduke · 07-26-2014, 11:14 AM

One way to avoid tanking is to have a purely random draft order determined at the moment of the draft. Probably should have included that. (Is now)

Jestre · 07-26-2014, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bristolduke

One way to avoid tanking is to have a purely random draft order determined at the moment of the draft. Probably should have included that. (Is now)

That would be completely unfair. You could potentially have the best teams get the top draft picks.

Best way to handle tanking is to boot anyone that does it.

Bristolduke · 07-26-2014, 12:40 PM

Remember in 1901 there is no draft. It was every team for themselves. Yes top teams "could" get top picks but in 1901 they were usually getting the top players anyway,

Booting doesn't work because tanking is subjective (been there tried that). Plus I don't want to constantly try a dig up owners. People hopefully are doing this to experience the players. Since the pool appears small, I'll only try this if I know we have a solid core of GMs.

So far it is just you and me.

Jestre · 07-26-2014, 04:12 PM

I am talking about the yearly rookie entry draft, not the initial 1901 team stocking draft. As the league progresses the teams with the worst record should get the top draft picks. The initial stocking draft should of course be random draft order using snake draft.

As far as tanking goes, I found it easy to handle. In the 75 seasons the MLBC simmed we booted 2 owners for tanking. With historical recalc in play every owner should play the best lineup/rotation possible, there is no excuse not to. If an owner not using an optimum lineup it is very easy to see.

Eddie Paxil · 07-26-2014, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bristolduke

All that aside I'll throw this out. If there is 16 dedicated people who want a historical league, I can consider running it (particularly if I can have some help with the web site)

Gaffer, if you're serious. I'm in. I'll help where I can. Web sites unfortunately, not my forte. My new league uses Fidel's service which sets up the website for you. However, I think a straight historical would be interesting.

Would it use Lahman or Spritze's database?

Bristolduke · 07-26-2014, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jestre

I am talking about the yearly rookie entry draft, not the initial 1901 team stocking draft. As the league progresses the teams with the worst record should get the top draft picks. The initial stocking draft should of course be random draft order using snake draft.

As far as tanking goes, I found it easy to handle. In the 75 seasons the MLBC simmed we booted 2 owners for tanking. With historical recalc in play every owner should play the best lineup/rotation possible, there is no excuse not to. If an owner not using an optimum lineup it is very easy to see.

I was talking about the rookie draft as well. Plan B is the historical no draft. They come in as free agents(first come - first serve)

If it is so easy then you should run the league. Let me know your definition of best lineup/rotation possible in advance though. I don't want any retro active penalties.

BTW I have had two interested responses.

Jestre · 07-26-2014, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bristolduke

I was talking about the rookie draft as well. Plan B is the historical no draft. They come in as free agents(first come - first serve)

If it is so easy then you should run the league. Let me know your definition of best lineup/rotation possible in advance though. I don't want any retro active penalties.

BTW I have had two interested responses.

I commished for years, don't want to do it again.

I have no idea how you plan to have a free agent rookie class.... they are all dumped in at once, how do you plan on handling everyone claiming the same players at the same time...

As far as I know the only 2 choices for the rookie entries is: a) assigning them to their historical teams or b) amateur draft.

Bristolduke · 07-26-2014, 07:12 PM

Option 3. Release the pool to free agency.

Jestre · 07-26-2014, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bristolduke

Option 3. Release the pool to free agency.

And then what???

Bristolduke · 07-26-2014, 08:09 PM

Offer them contracts of course.

captaincoop17 · 07-26-2014, 08:29 PM

Why not just use the wheel system?

The NBA?s Possible Solution for Tanking: Good-bye to the Lottery, Hello to the Wheel «

It was thrown out there as an idea for the NBA and it's 30 teams, so we'd have to modify to work for 16 teams.

Just a thought…it would have to be altered whenever expansion came around though.

I'd be interested in possibly joining this league?

Bristolduke · 07-26-2014, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captaincoop17

Why not just use the wheel system?

The NBA?s Possible Solution for Tanking: Good-bye to the Lottery, Hello to the Wheel «

It was thrown out there as an idea for the NBA and it's 30 teams, so we'd have to modify to work for 16 teams.

Just a thought…it would have to be altered whenever expansion came around though.

I'd be interested in possibly joining this league?

That's a possibility. I have a couple of these type random spread sheets used to add variability to the draft.

The concept is the same. Don't have this specific one but it looks intriguing.

My personal favorite is no draft, since it is closer to historical and rewards well run organizations (not won/loss records), but I would want to run a couple of tests first.

We now have 5 interested GMs.

captaincoop17 · 07-26-2014, 08:42 PM

Just did the quick sequence for the first 16 years…

1
16
5
12
4
13
8
9
2
15
6
11
3
14
7
10

Every 16 years, you get the 1st pick
Every 4 years, you get a top 4 pick

I'm not sure if this system would allow trading though?

Bristolduke · 07-26-2014, 08:52 PM

If you kept a running table so everyone's pick was visible and you published the pool well in advance, you could probably enable trading next year's pick and maybe next +1. Not sure I would do that, but I think its possible.

Eddie Paxil · 07-26-2014, 09:00 PM

Love the wheel idea captaincoop

Jestre · 07-26-2014, 11:58 PM

Being as how historical drafts are not equal at all, some are great, some are crappy, some are average, you are going to have some really unhappy people that are stuck with top picks in crappy drafts. This is getting a bit too wacky for me, I am going to have to bow out.

captaincoop17 · 07-27-2014, 12:22 AM

Jestre makes a good point, and it's one I considered, but overlooked.

The wheel would probably work best in a modern league, or in a random debut league.

Tanking is going to occur, but look at the Houston Astros…they still call themselves a ML franchise. If I had to chose, just draft like normal…in reverse order of the previous years' standings.

I wouldn't mind a lottery or something like that, but it would need to be live or something like that.

07-26-2014, 08:16 AM	#22
Bristolduke All Star Starter Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,404	I am actually a big fan of historical baseball, but "how historical" is desired. As was pointed out, unless some balancing is done, only half the league will have any fun. Also, to be historical, re-calc needs to be used not OOTP player development. I have been in a couple that tried using development and when your favorite players go bust (e.g. Christy Mathewson is horrible and can't make a squad) then people lose interest. The other side of re-calc is that you know what the player is close to performing before you start (e.g. 1 year wonders). The other side of historical, is did you know that both Christy Mathewson and Babe Ruth should have started their careers in Cincinnati? All that aside I'll throw this out. If there is 16 dedicated people who want a historical league, I can consider running it (particularly if I can have some help with the web site) It would modify history in the following ways. 1. Start in 1901. 2. All teams would be on equal financial footing at the start, 3. Inaugural draft for all players. 4. Rookie draft for the new arrivals. (random draft order) 5. 1 year recalc.- to keep historical performance as close as possible. __________________ Commish of the Home Nations Baseball Association Commish of the Baseball Association League Commish of the League of WAR Commish of the On-Line Dynasty League SIMBL2 - Westbury Cannons Great Lakes Baseball - Toledo Neptunes World Baseball - Guantanamo Marines OMLB - Cincinnati Reds Last edited by Bristolduke; 07-26-2014 at 11:15 AM.

07-26-2014, 11:14 AM	#24
Bristolduke All Star Starter Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,404	One way to avoid tanking is to have a purely random draft order determined at the moment of the draft. Probably should have included that. (Is now) __________________ Commish of the Home Nations Baseball Association Commish of the Baseball Association League Commish of the League of WAR Commish of the On-Line Dynasty League SIMBL2 - Westbury Cannons Great Lakes Baseball - Toledo Neptunes World Baseball - Guantanamo Marines OMLB - Cincinnati Reds

07-26-2014, 12:40 PM	#26
Bristolduke All Star Starter Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,404	Remember in 1901 there is no draft. It was every team for themselves. Yes top teams "could" get top picks but in 1901 they were usually getting the top players anyway, Booting doesn't work because tanking is subjective (been there tried that). Plus I don't want to constantly try a dig up owners. People hopefully are doing this to experience the players. Since the pool appears small, I'll only try this if I know we have a solid core of GMs. So far it is just you and me. __________________ Commish of the Home Nations Baseball Association Commish of the Baseball Association League Commish of the League of WAR Commish of the On-Line Dynasty League SIMBL2 - Westbury Cannons Great Lakes Baseball - Toledo Neptunes World Baseball - Guantanamo Marines OMLB - Cincinnati Reds

07-26-2014, 04:12 PM	#27
Jestre All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: North Smithfield,Ri,USA Posts: 612	I am talking about the yearly rookie entry draft, not the initial 1901 team stocking draft. As the league progresses the teams with the worst record should get the top draft picks. The initial stocking draft should of course be random draft order using snake draft. As far as tanking goes, I found it easy to handle. In the 75 seasons the MLBC simmed we booted 2 owners for tanking. With historical recalc in play every owner should play the best lineup/rotation possible, there is no excuse not to. If an owner not using an optimum lineup it is very easy to see. __________________ My eyes perceive the present, but my roots are imbedded deeply in the grandeur of the past. "Chief Meyers"

07-26-2014, 07:12 PM	#31
Bristolduke All Star Starter Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,404	Option 3. Release the pool to free agency. __________________ Commish of the Home Nations Baseball Association Commish of the Baseball Association League Commish of the League of WAR Commish of the On-Line Dynasty League SIMBL2 - Westbury Cannons Great Lakes Baseball - Toledo Neptunes World Baseball - Guantanamo Marines OMLB - Cincinnati Reds

07-25-2014, 05:48 PM	#21
changewand Minors (Single A) Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 88	I do think that the difficulty of running a historical league is balancing sim length against the desire to both 1) experience all the eras that you'll pass through while 2) ensuring that you'll still be on this earth by the time you sim yourself there Simming too fast doesn't allow you the opportunity to enjoy the careers of individual players, while simming too slow doesn't allow you to get to the next generation of players. However, I do think that there's a sweet spot in there for sim times. It helps to populate the owners with a love for baseball across eras who can enjoy the ride without getting bored or disconnect from their team waiting for the year that Mantle or Mays debuts.

07-26-2014, 08:09 PM	#33
Bristolduke All Star Starter Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,404	Offer them contracts of course. __________________ Commish of the Home Nations Baseball Association Commish of the Baseball Association League Commish of the League of WAR Commish of the On-Line Dynasty League SIMBL2 - Westbury Cannons Great Lakes Baseball - Toledo Neptunes World Baseball - Guantanamo Marines OMLB - Cincinnati Reds

07-26-2014, 08:29 PM	#34
captaincoop17 All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 869	Why not just use the wheel system? The NBA?s Possible Solution for Tanking: Good-bye to the Lottery, Hello to the Wheel « It was thrown out there as an idea for the NBA and it's 30 teams, so we'd have to modify to work for 16 teams. Just a thought…it would have to be altered whenever expansion came around though. I'd be interested in possibly joining this league?

07-26-2014, 08:42 PM	#36
captaincoop17 All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 869	Just did the quick sequence for the first 16 years… 1 16 5 12 4 13 8 9 2 15 6 11 3 14 7 10 Every 16 years, you get the 1st pick Every 4 years, you get a top 4 pick I'm not sure if this system would allow trading though?

07-26-2014, 08:52 PM	#37
Bristolduke All Star Starter Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,404	If you kept a running table so everyone's pick was visible and you published the pool well in advance, you could probably enable trading next year's pick and maybe next +1. Not sure I would do that, but I think its possible. __________________ Commish of the Home Nations Baseball Association Commish of the Baseball Association League Commish of the League of WAR Commish of the On-Line Dynasty League SIMBL2 - Westbury Cannons Great Lakes Baseball - Toledo Neptunes World Baseball - Guantanamo Marines OMLB - Cincinnati Reds

07-26-2014, 09:00 PM	#38
Eddie Paxil Major Leagues Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana Posts: 411	Love the wheel idea captaincoop __________________ Eddie Paxil OOTP since 2007 Commissioner of the OMLB GM of the OMLB New Jersey Pioneers Commissioner of the NBBU GM of theNBBU Hoboken Knickerbockers Follow the NBBU Dynasty Thread Here.

07-26-2014, 11:58 PM	#39
Jestre All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: North Smithfield,Ri,USA Posts: 612	Being as how historical drafts are not equal at all, some are great, some are crappy, some are average, you are going to have some really unhappy people that are stuck with top picks in crappy drafts. This is getting a bit too wacky for me, I am going to have to bow out. __________________ My eyes perceive the present, but my roots are imbedded deeply in the grandeur of the past. "Chief Meyers"

07-27-2014, 12:22 AM	#40
captaincoop17 All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 869	Jestre makes a good point, and it's one I considered, but overlooked. The wheel would probably work best in a modern league, or in a random debut league. Tanking is going to occur, but look at the Houston Astros…they still call themselves a ML franchise. If I had to chose, just draft like normal…in reverse order of the previous years' standings. I wouldn't mind a lottery or something like that, but it would need to be live or something like that.