Sandy Koufax movement is a joke.

[Kushiel]

The movement for Sandy Koufax on these cards is a total joke, or error, or the fact that the Devs are too young to have seen him pitch or learn how other players spoke of his pitches. Koufax's 12-6 curveball was devastating and his changeup was above average. He did not throw 100 miles an hour but people these days only think about his 4 seamer. It looked 120 mph because of his breaking pitches. Ernie Banks said that Koufax's pitches had more spin than anybody's. That is a pretty good judgement by a very well respected hitter. Others had similar praise. Spin is afterall the greatest factor in movement. Koufax peak card should be as good as any card issued. You can look this stuff up. I seen him pitch many times and seen him pitch in person a couple times. I have witnessed what he done to hitters. Why does he get no movement respect? Just curious.

[Phunkabilly]

I think the type of movement you're talking about is probably more accurately quantified as "stuff" in OOTP. Since "movement" in the game effects the amount of homeruns given up, I tend to think of in-game movement more as "sink", or perhaps the ability to keep the ball in the lower third of the strike zone. To your point, however, Koufax did have pretty damn good HR/9 stats in the early 60's, even when compared to the other stud pitchers at the time, so I would think his movement rating would be better than it is as well.

And on a side note, while pouring through some of these pitchers' stats from the early 60's, I saw that Dean Chance had a 0.2 HR/9 line in 1964 (to go along with a 1.65 ERA)... that's 7 HR in 278 innings pitched(!), which absolutely blew my mind.

[Kushiel]

Hubbell's HR/9 are little different from Koufax. Clemens' are not as good and neither is Seaver's. This is just a couple pitchers but there are many with better MOV that cannot compete. I just think that his MOV should be 80 at minimum and maybe as high as 85.

Do I have Koufax on my team? A resounding YES! I also had him in past years of PT. I finally feel like I have to say something.

[Sipimi]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

The movement for Sandy Koufax on these cards is a total joke, or error, or the fact that the Devs are too young to have seen him pitch or learn how other players spoke of his pitches.

I'm pretty certain that the devs' opinion of players have nothing to do with the ratings. All stats go through the same "machine" (algorithms).

Quick suggestion:
- Have a closer look at Koufax' HR/9 stats
- Compare them with other elite pitchers of his time
- Look at the global numbers for that era and compare them to other eras
- Note what kind of park he was pitching in (pitcher vs hitter park)

That should give you an idea of why that MOV rating is what it is.

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by Sipimi

I'm pretty certain that the devs' opinion of players have nothing to do with the ratings. All stats go through the same "machine" (algorithms).

Quick suggestion:
- Have a closer look at Koufax' HR/9 stats
- Compare them with other elite pitchers of his time
- Look at the global numbers for that era and compare them to other eras
- Note what kind of park he was pitching in (pitcher vs hitter park)

That should give you an idea of why that MOV rating is what it is.

I am pretty sure that you have no idea what I have already looked at or witnessed with my own eyes.. But thanks for the response.

[DonMattingly]

Not that it's in joke land, but why isn't Nolan Ryan's PEAK Movement higher?

What happened to his 1981 season? He yielded only 2 home runs in 149 innings, good for a crazy 0.121 HR/9, which led the league.

An 85 Movement doesn't really seem to do him justice if PEAK really does pick out career best rates.

Edit: for that matter, what happened to Pedro Martinez's PEAK Movement?

He led the league with a 0.338 HR/9 in a roid-filled 2003 season, and in the AL with the DH. The next closest was Tim Hudson at a 0.563 rate.

How is his PEAK Movement just an 82? He stood head and shoulders above his peers.

[dkgo]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

I am pretty sure that you have no idea what I have already looked at or witnessed with my own eyes.. But thanks for the response.

If you had already looked at that stuff then why not present it as supporting evidence? Movement in ootp is literally just how likely he is to give up a homerun, not if he has "the best doggone curve I swear I did ever see"

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

I am pretty sure that you have no idea what I have already looked at or witnessed with my own eyes.. But thanks for the response.

Ratings are based on stats, not your own eyes.

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by DonMattingly

Not that it's in joke land, but why isn't Nolan Ryan's PEAK Movement higher?

What happened to his 1981 season? He yielded only 2 home runs in 149 innings, good for a crazy 0.121 HR/9, which led the league.

An 85 Movement doesn't really seem to do him justice if PEAK really does pick out career best rates.

Edit: for that matter, what happened to Pedro Martinez's PEAK Movement?

He led the league with a 0.338 HR/9 in a roid-filled 2003 season, and in the AL with the DH. The next closest was Tim Hudson at a 0.563 rate.

How is his PEAK Movement just an 82? He stood head and shoulders above his peers.

I agree about Nolan. I have great love and respect for him as a player and person. One of my grandsons is named after Hank Aaron and Nolan Ryan. He is named Aaron Ryan.

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Ratings are based on stats, not your own eyes.

Yes they are. And the ratings are produced from an algorithm. An algorithm is a step by step method to solve a problem. It is no more than a recipe for a cake and like recipe is fallible. If you left out the baking soda and baking powder out of your cake recipe you will get a not so good cake.

I do not care how hard you can throw the baseball, if it has no movement big league hitters will kill it. They did not kill many pitches that Koufax threw. As far as my own eyes. I have seen hundreds of live MLB baseball games and thousands on TV. I went to MLB games and watched them on TV since Ol' Diz and Peewee were the announcers on the game of the week. My eyes were God made, not man made. I know quite well which pitchers were a bad day for the hitters.

[Syd Thrift]

It doesn't matter what your eyes tell you. If you look at Koufax's HR rate, adjusted for the league and the park, it was good but not great. Sorry if that hurts your feelings but the stats don't tend to care about them all that much.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[RonCo]

OOTP's somewhat inappropriate use of baseball language to obscure what it's doing strikes again.

[daves]

Since you are on the topic of great historical pitchers like Ryan and Koufax with inadequate ratings and PT stats, has anyone had any luck with Bob Gibson?

[Kushiel]

Gibson is another fearsome pitcher from that time that gets the shaft here. How does a pitcher have a 1.12 ERA and have low movement? It is ridiculous. If a pitcher is revered and respected by Boomers, he must be terrible in some way. Let us put a non-existent wart on his career.

[RonCo]

Gibson had times where he gave up a fair portion of homers, so in OOTP his "movement" would be tend to be a little lower than maybe some would think it should.

I know it's frustrating, but "OOTP Movement" is not "real movement."

Oh, would that every pitch had its own movement/command/control/velocity, and oh, would that OOTP ratings be derived from those. Alas, that would be really, really hard to make work well for historical players.

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by RonCo

Gibson had times where he gave up a fair portion of homers, so in OOTP his "movement" would be tend to be a little lower than maybe some would think it should.

I know it's frustrating, but "OOTP Movement" is not "real movement."

Oh, would that every pitch had its own movement/command/control/velocity, and oh, would that OOTP ratings be derived from those. Alas, that would be really, really hard to make work well for historical players.

So his Peak Card should be as low in movement as it is? I wonder how he got that 1.12 ERA for his "Peak" with about a 0.2 HR/9 I think it was if I remember right. I watched him pitch several times that year that year especially and never seen all those homers you speak of nor did I see them in the Fort Worth Star Telegram's box scores..We are not talking Fergie Jenkins here.

[RonCo]

I don't know. And I'm not against you here. I'm of an age to have seen both Gibson and Koufax on TV at least..I think anyway...born in '61. So I understand your revrance for them. I'm just saying that offense was deathly deficient in those days (there is a reason they lowered the mound), and Gibson did give up home runs to a degree.

Regardless "OOTP Movement" does not equal "Real Pitch Movement" despite our desires to think of it in that fashion.

[RonCo]

Bottom line, if my quick math is right, the Cardinals won the National League in Gibson's Peak year while their offense scored something around 3.6 runs a game, and in what Baseball Reference tags as a park that played heavily to pitchers (.94 in 1-year, .97 over three).

[daves]

Originally Posted by RonCo

I don't know. And I'm not against you here. I'm of an age to have seen both Gibson and Koufax on TV at least..I think anyway...born in '61. So I understand your revrance for them. I'm just saying that offense was deathly deficient in those days (there is a reason they lowered the mound), and Gibson did give up home runs to a degree.

Regardless "OOTP Movement" does not equal "Real Pitch Movement" despite our desires to think of it in that fashion.

So Koufax and Gibson are not as Good since they pitched in the 60's when the mounds were higher and hitting was not that rampant overall. Okay, makes sense.

But what about Ryan peak card? Shouldn't his be better?

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by RonCo

I don't know. And I'm not against you here. I'm of an age to have seen both Gibson and Koufax on TV at least..I think anyway...born in '61. So I understand your revrance for them. I'm just saying that offense was deathly deficient in those days (there is a reason they lowered the mound), and Gibson did give up home runs to a degree.

Regardless "OOTP Movement" does not equal "Real Pitch Movement" despite our desires to think of it in that fashion.

You may have seen Koufax pitch but I doubt that you would remember too much except from video these days.. He retired in '66. I was just wondering if he and Gibson pitched on the road. The mound was that high for many years before they lowered it. Around 1950 they made it official 15''. Before that it was not supposed to be higher than 15" but there was no real regulation so many teams made it as high as they wanted it to be. They lowered it after the '68 season. So all the old timers pitched on high mounds from about 1900 to 1968, Lets punish all of their movement on cards before 1968. Maybe Hubbell and all the other super old timers cards in PT were from mounds 15, 16, 17, and maybe 18".