Bagwell at 2B/3B?

[sportsbamer]

Has anyone trained Bagwell at 2B or 3B? If so is he serviceable there or does his fielding kill you?

[DonMattingly]

Someone with a spreadsheet can tell you exactly what he would train up to at 2b and 3b.

Even without the spreadsheet though, 1b will train up lower at every other IF position. I would definitely not put him on 2b, he'd be a major liability there defensively.

I'd be pretty hesitant to do it at 3b as well because his error rating is so low, and his arm isn't really up to that position. He wouldn't kill you there like he would at 2b, but he would still be pretty bad.

[writtenendge]

According to the spreadsheet I have, he's a 40 2B and a 33 3B so yeah, not great

[RoteLaterne]

Originally Posted by sportsbamer

Has anyone trained Bagwell at 2B or 3B? If so is he serviceable there or does his fielding kill you?

Which Bagwell are we talking about? 97, 91, 75?

[Bunktown Ballers]

Originally Posted by sportsbamer

Has anyone trained Bagwell at 2B or 3B? If so is he serviceable there or does his fielding kill you?

Why at 2nd base? Jeff Bagwell has played only 1 other position beside 1st base or DH in his entire career. That was in RF for 1 game. The option of Bagwell training at any other position is what leaves the game less than what it could be. It's like Jose Abreu can train at 2nd base & 3rd base which he has never played. OOTP - PT is obviously not trying to be a accurate simulation if so many players can train elsewhere even though they have never played there before. I think stats, across the board would be more accurate for teams & players if players were only allowed to play positions they played IRL. That's why Strat-O-Matic is a far more accurate representation of baseball than OOTP in my opinion. As long as managers can load up a team of infields/outfields/bullpens with all kinds of crazy ways stats will be skewed. Facing a team of HOF starters being used in bullpens & starting rotation is reducing the fun for many players. If it's time consuming to get accurate positions for each and every player in game...reach out to customers for assistance. I'd be willing to get accurate playing positions if asked. I REALLY have nothing to do in my life. I love this game but too many PLAYER options ruin it for many. IRL HOF shortstops having better rating at 3rd base or 2nd base base without ever playing at all there or very little is ridiculous to me. Imagine having accurate represention of games...It's be awesome IMO...Just my two cents, but it's probably why I'm not a huge winner...I like things sorta close to realistic....I'd love a league with players playing their true positions...ENOUGH from me...Good Luck Too All

[Bunktown Ballers]

Originally Posted by writtenendge

According to the spreadsheet I have, he's a 40 2B and a 33 3B so yeah, not great

Not great but better than 85 rated 3rd base that hits .250 8 HR's a year right?

[BatAround]

Could someone post a link to said spreadsheet?

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Bunktown Ballers

Not great but better than 85 rated 3rd base that hits .250 8 HR's a year right?

Probably not. The difference between a 3B who can actually cut the mustard and a converted 1B can be along the lines of like 5 wins per season. That’s the difference between Bagwell’s hitting and a guy who hits below replacement level, like .210 with crap secondary stats.

[DonMattingly]

Originally Posted by Bunktown Ballers

Why at 2nd base? Jeff Bagwell has played only 1 other position beside 1st base or DH in his entire career. That was in RF for 1 game. The option of Bagwell training at any other position is what leaves the game less than what it could be. It's like Jose Abreu can train at 2nd base & 3rd base which he has never played. OOTP - PT is obviously not trying to be a accurate simulation if so many players can train elsewhere even though they have never played there before. I think stats, across the board would be more accurate for teams & players if players were only allowed to play positions they played IRL. That's why Strat-O-Matic is a far more accurate representation of baseball than OOTP in my opinion. As long as managers can load up a team of infields/outfields/bullpens with all kinds of crazy ways stats will be skewed. Facing a team of HOF starters being used in bullpens & starting rotation is reducing the fun for many players. If it's time consuming to get accurate positions for each and every player in game...reach out to customers for assistance. I'd be willing to get accurate playing positions if asked. I REALLY have nothing to do in my life. I love this game but too many PLAYER options ruin it for many. IRL HOF shortstops having better rating at 3rd base or 2nd base base without ever playing at all there or very little is ridiculous to me. Imagine having accurate represention of games...It's be awesome IMO...Just my two cents, but it's probably why I'm not a huge winner...I like things sorta close to realistic....I'd love a league with players playing their true positions...ENOUGH from me...Good Luck Too All

I agree, I think they should do away with the ability to train a player at other positions in PT. The card otherwise never changes and never ages, and already in tournaments training is ignored.

You can't tell me that any and every strong infielder who doesn't play 1b can train and become a better 1b than Keith Hernandez was so long as they're at least 6' tall. It's not realistic. I am tired of seeing teams use trained guys to fill out uber defensive lineups because they can take advantage of the current algorithm.

If you have a card of a player from a certain year, than that card should only be able to play the position(s) that player did that year.

[Syd Thrift]

That seems more like a problem with Hernandez’s ratings or the game engine itself. Hernandez as a lefty will never get rated at any other infield position no matter how much you train him, so in turn you can get away with rating him pretty high in Infield Range and the like. My guess is that the game’s algorithms still decided he was only a good fielder instead of one of the greatest 1Bs of all time.

Still, if you were to go crazy with that, would a Cal Ripken in his prime be a better 1B than Hernandez? You’d never make that move in real life because Cal is too valuable at SS, but in the world of PT where you’ve got, like, Ozzie Smith there and Brooks Robinson at 3rd, why wouldn’t you? The big advantage Hernandez has over most elite shortstops at 1st is his height, and Ripken was one of the first tall shortstops. He had pretty good range for a shortstop which equates to fantastic range for a 1B, and his hands were outstanding. As great as Hernandez was, I don’t see how this would be a bad baseball move...

[DonMattingly]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

That seems more like a problem with Hernandez’s ratings or the game engine itself. Hernandez as a lefty will never get rated at any other infield position no matter how much you train him, so in turn you can get away with rating him pretty high in Infield Range and the like. My guess is that the game’s algorithms still decided he was only a good fielder instead of one of the greatest 1Bs of all time.

Still, if you were to go crazy with that, would a Cal Ripken in his prime be a better 1B than Hernandez? You’d never make that move in real life because Cal is too valuable at SS, but in the world of PT where you’ve got, like, Ozzie Smith there and Brooks Robinson at 3rd, why wouldn’t you? The big advantage Hernandez has over most elite shortstops at 1st is his height, and Ripken was one of the first tall shortstops. He had pretty good range for a shortstop which equates to fantastic range for a 1B, and his hands were outstanding. As great as Hernandez was, I don’t see how this would be a bad baseball move...

Compared to the way the other 1b are rated, Hernandez is the best defensively right now. And I'm OK with not being able to train him to be an Ozzie-like SS, I don't think he would have been able to do that in RL.

My issue is that in OOTP, tons of infielders have better ratings in range, error, arm and turn DP than Hernandez. And so long as they have a sufficient height, they can all be trained to be better 1b in every way than Hernandez.

I'm sure Ripken would have been a really good 1b, but I'm not sure any human on earth including Ripken would have been better than Hernandez was there. In the PT world, tons of players can be better than Hernandez at 1b so long as you train them there long enough.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by DonMattingly

I agree, I think they should do away with the ability to train a player at other positions in PT.

This is the biggest single thing that could be done to improve the game mode.

Originally Posted by DonMattingly

If you have a card of a player from a certain year, than that card should only be able to play the position(s) that player did that year.

And the peak cards should be able to play every position that the player did in his career at the competency level that he played it.

[DonMattingly]

Originally Posted by Orcin

This is the biggest single thing that could be done to improve the game mode.




And the peak cards should be able to play every position that the player did in his career at the competency level that he played it.

I'd go one step further, I would nix the PEAK cards. They represent something the players never were in reality at any given time. They are fictional players IMO, I would much rather have all the cards based on a single year of actual, historical performance.

[Caedus]

Bagwell is one of my teams' 2B against LHP because I don't have anyone else that can hit lefties to play infield. Cano or Tulo come in to play defensively late in games.

[sportsbamer]

[QUOTE=Bunktown Ballers;4669894]Why at 2nd base? /QUOTE]

Because the game lets him play there? I ended up never trying him at any other position besides 1st, it didn't seem like it would be worth it. The idea of having his bat a 2nd with a stud 1B and DH to go with him in the middle of the lineup was tempting to try though. I do like keeping it as realistic as possible as well though.The only play I've actually trained out of position is George Kell who plays 2nd for me sometimes now. I don't even like the idea of loading the bullpen with a bunch of SPs.

[Bunktown Ballers]

[QUOTE=sportsbamer;4669965]

Originally Posted by Bunktown Ballers

Why at 2nd base? /QUOTE]

Because the game lets him play there? I ended up never trying him at any other position besides 1st, it didn't seem like it would be worth it. The idea of having his bat a 2nd with a stud 1B and DH to go with him in the middle of the lineup was tempting to try though. I do like keeping it as realistic as possible as well though.The only play I've actually trained out of position is George Kell who plays 2nd for me sometimes now. I don't even like the idea of loading the bullpen with a bunch of SPs.

And then I read about the unrealistic stats on here, but otherwise Bagwell playing a position he never ever played IRL is fine....Go figure

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by DonMattingly

My issue is that in OOTP, tons of infielders have better ratings in range, error, arm and turn DP than Hernandez. And so long as they have a sufficient height, they can all be trained to be better 1b in every way than Hernandez.

I'm sure Ripken would have been a really good 1b, but I'm not sure any human on earth including Ripken would have been better than Hernandez was there. In the PT world, tons of players can be better than Hernandez at 1b so long as you train them there long enough.

I don't understand how this is a problem. Of course an elite shortstop would convert to an ELITE first basemen if given the reps and sufficient height. The reason that never happens in real life is because value is created on BOTH sides of the plate, and 1B is the easiest defensive position. You need a big bat there to add value relative to the average first basemen in the league.

The fact that the game allows training just gives players more freedom to do really, really stupid things like playing a glove-first player at first base. What's not to love about that?

[Spieler]

Originally Posted by DonMattingly

I agree, I think they should do away with the ability to train a player at other positions in PT. The card otherwise never changes and never ages, and already in tournaments training is ignored.

Disagree. Would make a lot of theme teams untenable, especially team-based theme teams (White Sox, Tigers, Mets, whatever). I think most would agree diversity in the regular game should be supported, not undermined.

No one is running theme teams in tournaments, so don't see a problem there.

[DonMattingly]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

I don't understand how this is a problem. Of course an elite shortstop would convert to an ELITE first basemen if given the reps and sufficient height. The reason that never happens in real life is because value is created on BOTH sides of the plate, and 1B is the easiest defensive position. You need a big bat there to add value relative to the average first basemen in the league.

The fact that the game allows training just gives players more freedom to do really, really stupid things like playing a glove-first player at first base. What's not to love about that?

For a player to learn he needs time, and time ages that player. Do you also want PT cards to age then? If a card is based on a historical season and never changes otherwise, why should it be able to change defensively?

What's not to love? Teams with nothing but all trained SSs in the IF and all trained CFers in the OF sucking the life out of offense across the league.

Training is something you should be able to do in the single player game only with the players aging.

Tournaments have it right.

[DonMattingly]

Originally Posted by Spieler

Disagree. Would make a lot of theme teams untenable, especially team-based theme teams (White Sox, Tigers, Mets, whatever). I think most would agree diversity in the regular game should be supported, not undermined.

No one is running theme teams in tournaments, so don't see a problem there.

You can still make theme teams, but you would be playing some guys out of position and taking the same hit you'd take for that in tournaments.

Diversity can be supported by adding more players and more cards with different seasons for more players. You have literally all of MLB history to choose from.