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Old 01-10-2019, 06:48 PM   #21
mcdog512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcharlesxii View Post
Well if you're going with a defensive-focused team, you're actually putting the cart before the horse with the top post.

What matters the most completely depends on what pitchers are on your team. That's step 1. There's a couple ways you can go with that: heavy groundball staff (higher BABIP but less XBH) or a heavy flyball staff (lower BABIP but potentially more gap hits). Get a bunch of pitchers that fit the profile you want to build to first. If you have a lot of strikeout pitchers, the defensive value will matter less overall. Generally regardless of what type of pitchers I pick, I tend to focus on movement and control with an adequate level of stuff. High stuff is for teams where you have a weaker defense behind them but isn't bad for this type of team either.

Second, you need to get elite defenders that complement those pitchers. You don't want "good enough" defenders, you want elite, even if you're giving up offense for it. You can put worse defenders on whichever area you're not focusing on (ie you can probably put worse defenders on 1B and 3B if you're focusing on outfield defense. However, I would only punt on one of the OF corners if you're focusing on the infield, two bad defenders in the corner seems to spell trouble even if your CF is elite). I prefer range over all else in the OF, while arm is important at 3B/SS only and error rating is important, along with height at 1B).

Combine that with appropriate strategy settings and you can build a cheap and pretty good team. ZR is the metric you want to be looking at - unlike in real baseball, OOTP's ZR should be a perfectly accurate measurement of how well a player is doing defensively. Team defensive efficiency will fluctuate due to luck but team ZR is a good predictor of the future performance of your defense.

That's the route I've taken. Average defensive team with high strikeout pitchers. I am very curious though on how this experiment works.
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Old 01-10-2019, 06:50 PM   #22
Joshrapley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingcharlesxii View Post
Well if you're going with a defensive-focused team, you're actually putting the cart before the horse with the top post.

What matters the most completely depends on what pitchers are on your team. That's step 1. There's a couple ways you can go with that: heavy groundball staff (higher BABIP but less XBH) or a heavy flyball staff (lower BABIP but potentially more gap hits). Get a bunch of pitchers that fit the profile you want to build to first. If you have a lot of strikeout pitchers, the defensive value will matter less overall. Generally regardless of what type of pitchers I pick, I tend to focus on movement and control with an adequate level of stuff. High stuff is for teams where you have a weaker defense behind them but isn't bad for this type of team either.
I thought Park Factors was the step before deciding the type of pitching staff you have? If you have a HR friendly park, you should be looking for GB Pitchers and focus on having an elite infield. If it is a Pitchers friendly park, then FB Pitchers with elite outfield.

I am likely completely mistaken on something here but wanted to see if this logic is correct as this could help develop a more defensive team on PT by editing your Ball Park Factor to suit your teams strengths?

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Originally Posted by DonkeyKongSr View Post
This is a game changer for me, thank you! Spent so much time trying to develop players in other positions only to realise they aren't going to get any better. Think I have been valuing Outfield Arm too highly when Range is clearly the biggest contributor to Outfield Rating.

What is the ideal height for 1B as have never taken this into consideration when retraining a player here?
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Old 01-10-2019, 06:54 PM   #23
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Couple tips for OP - since so many people mentioned retraining, just be aware that retaining does NOT carry over from entry pool into bronze league from what I can tell. So you will have to do it all over in bronze (which is not an issue since you definitely want to do it and get guys ratings up as soon as you can - but just something to keep in mind).

I trained Ichiro from 0 to a 70something CF in Diamond, and lets just say his ZR was not particularly stellar during the nearly full season haha.

List of budget OFs Ive notice that you can pick and choose and usually get for 50PP or less:

Kevin Pillar
Willie Wilson
Ichiro Suzuki (little more expensive but still under 100)
Kiermier

Can probably get some decent silvers too around 100-200 such as Shane Victorino for example.

So depending on what you want to spend you can field a super budget defensive outfield that can hit ok (for average at least) and decent speed.

Try Victorino, Pillar, Ichiro for example
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Old 01-10-2019, 06:57 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Joshrapley View Post
I thought Park Factors was the step before deciding the type of pitching staff you have? If you have a HR friendly park, you should be looking for GB Pitchers and focus on having an elite infield. If it is a Pitchers friendly park, then FB Pitchers with elite outfield.

I am likely completely mistaken on something here but wanted to see if this logic is correct as this could help develop a more defensive team on PT by editing your Ball Park Factor to suit your teams strengths?
When it comes to park factors it all fits together....offense, pitching, defense. It doesn't necessarily matter which choice you make first, but you should definitely attempt to align all three into a cohesive strategy.
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Old 01-10-2019, 07:00 PM   #25
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From personal experience, a staff of all groundball pitchers will not perform well, no matter how elite your infield defense is. One reason is the high BABIP that comes with having a GB pitching profile. Additionally, the elite GB/EXGB options are extremely limited - so much so that it is impossible to field a starting rotation of all diamonds. They simply do not exist.

To have any chance of this type of strategy working at higher levels, you'll need to add in some quality pitchers with a neutral profile.
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Old 01-10-2019, 07:09 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Joshrapley View Post
This is a game changer for me, thank you! Spent so much time trying to develop players in other positions only to realise they aren't going to get any better. Think I have been valuing Outfield Arm too highly when Range is clearly the biggest contributor to Outfield Rating.

What is the ideal height for 1B as have never taken this into consideration when retraining a player here?
Somewhere over 6'. It really is a huge factor. Test out the formula by adding or subtracting 2-3 cm (1"=2.54 cm) and see what happens. Brandon Belt is the top defensive 1B in the game because he's both good and a giant.

If you dig into the formulas, here's essentially the breakdown of order of value each stat is to each position.

1B: Height > Range > Error (Arm and DP are almost worthless)
2B: Range >> Error = DP > Arm
SS: Range >> Error = DP > Arm
3B: Arm > Range >> Error > DP

LF: Range >>> Arm > Error
CF: Range >>>>> Error > Arm (Arm is almost worthless, very heavily range influenced here)
RF: Range > Arm >> Error

Last edited by DonkeyKongSr; 01-10-2019 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 01-10-2019, 07:18 PM   #27
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One thing I've noticed is that a player's Error rating is more important to overall defensive performance than I once thought it was. It doesn't just effect the likelihood of a error on the scoreboard, but also has an easily observable effect on plays made.

I find that when I look at the advanced breakdown of defensive stats, low Error rating players (like the Tris Speaker I have in CF, with a 21 Error) do slightly worse on "routine", but very poorly on "even chance" plays. If they have good range, they are usually still as good as you'd expect on tough or near impossible plays. But, the "even chance" plays are numerous. Speaker, with that low rating, some years is in the range of 20% on even chance, while guys with high error ratings are well up in the 70-80% range.

I've stopped obsessing with Range because of this. Well, I'm still obsessing, just slightly less so.
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Old 01-10-2019, 07:32 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by mcdog512 View Post
That's the route I've taken. Average defensive team with high strikeout pitchers. I am very curious though on how this experiment works.
Strikeouts are never bad. Even with elite defense, BABIP luck can still swing against you. Strikeouts remove that possibility. The thing is, you still need control & movement to make up for the bad defense. Walks + hits (from bad D) + homers = bad times. You'd need to be a strikeout GOD to make up for all that.
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Old 01-10-2019, 07:38 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by chazzycat View Post
Strikeouts are never bad. Even with elite defense, BABIP luck can still swing against you. Strikeouts remove that possibility. The thing is, you still need control & movement to make up for the bad defense. Walks + hits (from bad D) + homers = bad times. You'd need to be a strikeout GOD to make up for all that.
Agreed. I go for high stuff and try for 60+ in both movement and control and set my ballpark to less dingers.

As a side note, is that you on Civ Fanatics?
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Old 01-10-2019, 07:44 PM   #30
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Just a suggestion for you, but try Pillar in Center and Wilson in Left. I know that Pillar has like 120 rating or something in LF, but his 100+ in CF is better than Wilson's CF - mainly due to the error and the range for Pillar being better - and CF is more important defensively. I suspect you will get a better combo that way. Wilson already comes with 90+ LF so you dont need to train him up.
Thanks, I was doing that on my other team, that is until I got Garry Maddox for CF. Still too early to tell how that's going to play out.
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Old 01-10-2019, 08:09 PM   #31
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So here is my cheap starting defensive lineup so far. This is the baseline starting point just put together with my starter points. I need to still find someone for 1B and upgrade C.

Then start nabbing some pitchers who will benefit from the defense

Albert Belle is a nice DH in the middle of a lineup without much pop. Bader in LF, McReynolds in CF and Suzuki in RF (although based on DonkeyKongs rating hierarchy it seems like maybe I should put Bader back at CF and play Mcreynolds superior arm in LF.

Thanks to DonkeyKongs spreadsheet it shows that Bader could end up at about 114 rating in LF
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Last edited by Maddox; 01-10-2019 at 08:16 PM.
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Old 01-10-2019, 08:18 PM   #32
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Thanks, I was doing that on my other team, that is until I got Garry Maddox for CF. Still too early to tell how that's going to play out.
I wanted to try Maddox (Its the name) but he is still too expensive for the points I had.
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Old 01-10-2019, 08:21 PM   #33
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Serious question, has anyone had any luck with a good hitting catcher? I have gone to using the strongest DEF rating guys that I can find, and just accepting the .220 to .230 BA. I just never see any production from the C position.
had decent luck with Cochrane so far with my pre-ww2 team.... ignoring his first/partial season, he's done a solid job compared to what other catchers have done for me (course, it's only been silver league and half a season in gold so far; so no telling what would happen at higher levels, depending on where your team(s) are at).
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Old 01-10-2019, 08:29 PM   #34
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As a side note, is that you on Civ Fanatics?
Haha, Yep! I am usually playing civ during the baseball offseason, but this year I've just been playing OOTP instead. You'll probably see me disappear from here for a while when the expansion drops
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Old 01-10-2019, 09:08 PM   #35
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Haha, Yep! I am usually playing civ during the baseball offseason, but this year I've just been playing OOTP instead. You'll probably see me disappear from here for a while when the expansion drops
One month Although I'm upset they have to drop it in February. Can't they release it in April or May, you know, when I don't have a ton of work on OOTP to get done?
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Old 01-10-2019, 09:12 PM   #36
mcdog512
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Haha, Yep! I am usually playing civ during the baseball offseason, but this year I've just been playing OOTP instead. You'll probably see me disappear from here for a while when the expansion drops

I took a couple days off of work to play the heck out of it.
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Old 01-10-2019, 09:22 PM   #37
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So here is my cheap starting defensive lineup so far. This is the baseline starting point just put together with my starter points. I need to still find someone for 1B and upgrade C.

Then start nabbing some pitchers who will benefit from the defense

Albert Belle is a nice DH in the middle of a lineup without much pop. Bader in LF, McReynolds in CF and Suzuki in RF (although based on DonkeyKongs rating hierarchy it seems like maybe I should put Bader back at CF and play Mcreynolds superior arm in LF.

Thanks to DonkeyKongs spreadsheet it shows that Bader could end up at about 114 rating in LF
Your OF are virtually always going to be best in LF, then RF, then CF (only the worst OF don't follow this). However, there can be bigger swings on some players, so you do need to run the calculator to optimize your OF.

Of note, in my records, I've found 6 guys who will rate over 100 at CF, 32 at RF, and 63 at LF.

For a budget 1B, there's always Brandon Belt and his 104 1B rating. However, Silver Tulowitski and Bobby Crosby should peak higher (110 & 108 according to the calculator, but 1B overcalculates by 2 points often).

Last edited by DonkeyKongSr; 01-10-2019 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 01-10-2019, 09:37 PM   #38
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Serious question, has anyone had any luck with a good hitting catcher? I have gone to using the strongest DEF rating guys that I can find, and just accepting the .220 to .230 BA. I just never see any production from the C position.
I've have three catchers that can produce offense.

Francisco Mejia
Gabby Hartnett
Johnny Bench (OVR 92)

Here is Mejia stats. I was platooning him with Gabby until I pulled the Bench card. Now he is my DH against right-handers.

My entire team had their best offensive year of their lives last year (maybe because I was in Bronze for the third time) and he won the batting title. When he needed PA's to get on the leaderboard, he took over for Gabby as full-time DH.
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Old 01-10-2019, 09:38 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Joshrapley View Post
I thought Park Factors was the step before deciding the type of pitching staff you have? If you have a HR friendly park, you should be looking for GB Pitchers and focus on having an elite infield. If it is a Pitchers friendly park, then FB Pitchers with elite outfield.

I am likely completely mistaken on something here but wanted to see if this logic is correct as this could help develop a more defensive team on PT by editing your Ball Park Factor to suit your teams strengths?
You can but you're playing half the games on the road so it's not as big a factor as you might think. I actually prefer neutral parks just because I want a team that can win with any park factors. Remember, your team has to hit with those park factors too.

It's less bad to do it in Perfect Team vs real OOTP though as you keep the players as long as you want them.
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Old 01-10-2019, 09:57 PM   #40
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For a budget 1B, there's always Brandon Belt and his 104 1B rating. However, Silver Tulowitski and Bobby Crosby should peak higher (110 & 108 according to the calculator, but 1B overcalculates by 2 points often).
Rookie Tulo is a 110 at 1B? This is where he caps out at 2B I think the better play for 1B is to focus on the offensive profile of your choice where the player has acceptable defensive stats. For example, my starter pack gold was the 2017 All Star Corey Seager. Only a 69 positional rating at SS, but he gets to 104 at 1B. Being 6'3" definitely helps, but otherwise his defensive ratings are nothing special, just mid 70's on everything. And even if they don't quite reach triple digits at 1B, its not like its a premium defensive position... Tulo's 110 is WAY more valuable at 2B than at 1B.

Last edited by Dogberry99; 01-10-2019 at 09:58 PM.
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