The Spice O' Life

[professordp]

Originally Posted by a87star

Do you think that the handlers of these white heavyweights went to these publications and asked for a good word or did the media just sought these guys out so we could accept them as legit contenders when it really was the opposite? I'm thinking the latter but i'm sure there were a few cases when word of mouth played a role.

I suspect that it was a "combination of the two". I guess it's best to put in a bit of historical perspective. The civil rights movement was just starting (I'm talking about late 1950s-early 1960s) so it was still legal to segregate people on the basis of race in hotels, diners, movie houses, etc.

If you read boxing publications like The Ring during the late 1940s into the mid-1950s, African-American boxers weren't just described as boxers...they were identified as "Negro" boxers. This was pretty much dropped by the mid-1950s, but you still get a strong sense of the prevailing attitudes in the editorial offices. Just go back and read late 1950s copies of Boxing Illustrated and you'll see how quick they were to jump on the Ingemar Johansson band wagon while reducing Patterson to a grain of dust.

But you do raise a vaild point concerning managers and promoters. They sure let the boxing press know all about their latest "Great White Hope" and both BI and The Ring seemed more than willing to run with it. If you go back in time, you'll see that they devoted a lot of unwarranted ink to the likes of LaMar Clark, Mike DeJohn, etc.

Remember that back then, the heavyweight champion was beyond a doubt the most recognized sports figure in the world. Also, in the lighter divisions during the period you had African-Americans (or those of African descent) holding the titles. Archie Moore wore the light-heavy crown, Sugar Ray was middleweight king. In the welters, after Basilio moved on the title passed to Virgil Atkins, Don Jordan, Benny Paret, and Emile Griffith. "Old Bones" Joe Brown had a lock on the lightweight crown. And Davey Moore (an African-American) had lifted the featherweight title from Hogan "Kid" Bassey, a Nigerian.

What I found most interesting was when Johansson knocked out Patterson, there wasn't the outcry to "bring the title back to America". The boxing establishement seemed very content that the crown once again rested upon a white head. In fact, the big fight that they were looking for was Marciano-Johansson...not Liston-Johansson or Cleveland Williams-Johansson. BI did a big spread on a potential Rocky/Ingo match shortly after Ingo won the crown.

Now before this all turns into some political thing, I'm a registered Republican, my all-time political hero is a fellow from Arizona named Barry Goldwater (that started when I was in high school), and in my mind the country was never in better shape than when Ol' Ron was at the helm.

So, I'm far from a "left-wing, bleeding heart/Red Diaper-Doper Baby".

Still, I think that with my two unis as well as this thread, given the time period I'm dealing with, I'm obligated to bring the question of racism into the mix...it was a fact of life in professional sports back then.

Just for a point of reference. Neither the Boston Red Sox (Pumpsie Green hit Fenway in 1959) nor the Washington Redskins (Bobby Mitchell was the first in 1962) had ever had an African-American on their squad. The all-white nature of both teams wasn't an accident...it was team policy!

[David Ball]

Probably Lewis' manager did work at promoting him, but I don't think that's the issue. Whether we're talking about a boxer, an actor, a popular musician, a performer of any sort, a manager, agent or promoter who's at all competent will do everything possible to hype his or her principal. The crucial question is how receptive the media will be.

Suppose you've got not just a white boxer, but a white heavyweight with an attractive, hard-hitting style, and a native American who speaks good, unaccented English of the sort people are comfortable with (no Russians need apply) -- in other words, if you have more or less Terry Lewis -- then the media people will be flinging the office doors wide when they see you coming to talk about him. If your guy is, let's say, Eddie Machen, you'l find it tougher just getting in to talk to them, though Machen may be a far superior fighter. I suspect that would still be true to a considerable degree today.

[professordp]

Originally Posted by David Ball

Probably Lewis' manager did work at promoting him, but I don't think that's the issue. Whether we're talking about a boxer, an actor, a popular musician, a performer of any sort, a manager, agent or promoter who's at all competent will do everything possible to hype his or her principal. The crucial question is how receptive the media will be.

Suppose you've got not just a white boxer, but a white heavyweight with an attractive, hard-hitting style, and a native American who speaks good, unaccented English of the sort people are comfortable with (no Russians need apply) -- in other words, if you have more or less Terry Lewis -- then the media people will be flinging the office doors wide when they see you coming to talk about him. If your guy is, let's say, Eddie Machen, you'l find it tougher just getting in to talk to them, though Machen may be a far superior fighter. I suspect that would still be true to a considerable degree today.

Huh???

[David Ball]

Well, I'm sorry if I'm being unclear, because essentially I'm just trying to agree with you. I'm saying that Lewis' handlers no doubt did try to promote him, but other people were doing the same for every boxer of significance. The difference is that the media were much more receptive when the fighter in question was a white heavyweight with a punch.

[professordp]

Originally Posted by David Ball

Well, I'm sorry if I'm being unclear, because essentially I'm just trying to agree with you. I'm saying that Lewis' handlers no doubt did try to promote him, but other people were doing the same for every boxer of significance. The difference is that the media were much more receptive when the fighter in question was a white heavyweight with a punch.

Just busting you!!! Although at times you do sound a little like Casey Stengel

[IDES]

Thanks for the rating Mark and glad you're back prof -

[RANGER11JP]

Originally Posted by bear

Thanks for sharing the personal memories of Jimmy. We all have some personal sports memories like that.

My dad took me to my first baseball game back in '59. Sox vs. Yankees. Earl Torgeson was sent up to pinch hit for the Sox. My dad told me to watch what he did at the plate. He fidgeted around in the batter's box in between pitches to try to upset the Yankee hurler's rhthym. He pretended to get something in his eye, asked for time and stepped out of the box when the pitcher had begun his wind up. My dad taught me more about the subtleties of baseball with that at bat than 95% of the color commentators I've heard over the years. We have a ton of memories like that that invlove a number of athletes in different sports.

I rember Ingo's appearence on the Dinah Shore show prior to his defense vs. Floyd. Toonder and Lightning. He appeared to be the picture of confidence. Made Floyd's recapture of the title seem all the more impresive to me back then.

My all-time favorite hockey player is the very ordinary Al MacNeil. He sparred with HW fighters in the off-season and I was at the Stadium once when I saw John Fergeson skate away from him rather than fight. He became my hero that night. Got one of the leagues most belicose goons to behave himself without doing anything.

Bear,

After seeing the great job you have done with the 4-F's, I was wondering if you ever thought of rating some hockey tough guys in a similar manner?

Thank you.

JP

[bear]

Originally Posted by RANGER11JP

Bear,

After seeing the great job you have done with the 4-F's, I was wondering if you ever thought of rating some hockey tough guys in a similar manner?

Thank you.

JP

JP
I gave the idea a passing thought, at least for the hockey players I found in a wikipedia list of something called the battle of the hockey enforcers. Given the number of real fighters and 4Fs that remain to be done it didn't become a high priority. I did add a speculative MacNeill to my TC parade along with amateur NHL stars Rick Caseres & Chuck Drazenovich because the guys were childhood favorites.

[professordp]

The impetus for this revision was the result of an exchange in another forum with a fellow gamer who had posted the results of a Data Boxing Duane Bobick fantasy sim. He concluded his Bobick simulation with a fifteen rounder against Ali using 1978 DB ratings for both fighters with Ali winning a unanimous decision.

After discussing the probability of this actually happening with my new friend, I decided to take a look at Bobick within the context of the TBCB world.

There are currently at least two TBCB ratings of Bobick. One was done by the TBCB rating team and is in the default fighter pool. The other was posted on the Day Council (DC) a few years ago.

After staging a series of TBCB sims against actual opponents and reviewing Bobick's record, I came up with a with a somewhat different interpretation of his career.

I'll only be presenting where I differ from the existing ratings and will be working "left-to-right" from the ratings screen.

Concerning strategy, both the team and DC give a Cover Up of "1". I've taken it down to "0". After viewing Duane's matches with Stevenson (1972 Olympics and Kenny Norton once more and reading accounts of his kayo losses to Kallie Knoetze and John Tate, one of Bobick's weaknesses was that once he got tagged with a hard right, he wound up taking a lot more.

I upgraded his "Intellect" from "5" to "8", however. To be sure, Duane had a weak leaning curve, never learning to avoid those rights, but he was trained by Eddie Futch who was in his corner during the fights. The upgrade is really tied to Eddie's boxing acumen rather than Duane's ring smarts.

The team gives a "Control" rating of "9" versus both sluggers and boxers which was upgraded to 10 in the DC rating. I dropped it down to "7" for both styles.

The reason? Whom did Bobick fight and how good were they? Missing from his resume are names like Holmes, Lyle, Leon Spinks, Joe Bugner, Earnie Shavers, Jimmy Young, and Stan Ward. Contenders all during his career.

The only contenders he actually fought (Norton, Knoetze, and Tate) knocked him out. If you're reading this, no doubt you're going to Box Rec and ready to dash off a terse retort that he stopped Mike Weaver.

Let's put that one in perspective. That bout was back in 1974 when Weaver was a directionless twenty-three year old "up & down" boxer who came into the bout with a 6-5 record. A much different fighter from the one five years later who gave Holmes a tough fight and subsequently went on to hold the WBA title.

To be sure, he beat some guys whose names you might know. A thirty-seven year old Chuck Wepner, a thirty-something Larry Middleton, a most likely forty-plus "Scrap Iron" Johnson, and a beefed-up Bunny Johnson. I'll get to Scott LeDoux in a moment.

Given Bobick's record, both the team and TC were far too generous with awarding Duane "Hitting Power" of "9" and "10" respectively. I took it down to "7", giving him every benefit of the doubt.

Accrording to the TBCB manual, HP represents "...the ability to take out an opponent with a single shot...(I)t's pure concussive power, not accumulative blows to wear an opponent down."

A perusal of Bobick's record reveals that the guys he actually knocked out...who took the ten count were a bunch of stiffs that you never heard of (Henry Patterson, John Jordan, Fernando Motes, Tom Nickerson, et. al) or ancient fellows over the hill, (Pedro Agosto and Manny Ramos).

His stoppages against guys with a name you've heard (Wepner, LeDoux, Bunny & Scrap Iron Johnson, Mike Schutte, Irish Pat Duncan, and Tommy Prater) were guys who were stopped via TKO, sometimes without hitting the canvas.

I was also a bit generous with Bobick's endurance. He only averaged 4.1 rounds over his fifty-two bout career. Both the team and DC set him at "8"; I dropped him to "7", giving him some credit for going ten with LeDoux, Middleton, and Fred Houpe, taking unanimous decisions in each instance.

In my rating his "Fast Starter" was raised to "2". It's "1" with both the team and DC. Here I bought into the explanation of the Bobick apologists who claim he was caught "cold" in the Norton match. Yep, he was also caught cold in the Tate bout as well. He was somewhat of a slow starter; if you check his record, his early kayo wins came against the aforementioned stiffs.

I slightly alterd his punching from "38" to "36"...he wasn't all that fast.

For those of you who live and die with the "Overall Rating" (I personally don't), my interpretation takes him from "6" to "4".

The photo was taken (I think!) from one of Cube's packages.

[professordp]

I neglected to mention above that I increased Duane's "Cut" rating from "2" to "3". While no Wepner or Henry Cooper, Bobick started having problems with cuts following his 1975 match with Scrap Iron Johnson in which he suffered a severe gash, perhaps due to a butt.

Nasty cuts were a factor in his loss to Knoetze, and the direct cause of his TKO loss to George Chaplin in what would prove to be Bobick' final fight.

[IDES]

Prof
I think your assessment is right on the mark. Looking forward to more of your ratings. And don't stay away so long next time.
Ides

[professordp]

Hootowl9 asked me to work up a rating for Stan Savold, older brother of 40s-50s heavyweight contender Lee. Hoot's working on his own rating, which I think will be definative.

Stan, also an heavyweight, was pretty much a prelim fighter who appeared mostly on Minnesota undercards between 1934 and 1940. He compiled a record of 4 (KO 3) and 19 (KO'd 5 times) against local talent.

Outside of his record, there really isn't much to go on with Stan. No descriptive accounts of his matches or the guys he fought. Moreover, the only opponent I found that was rated for TBCB is Johnny Paycek who kayoed Savold in the 4th of a ten rounder. For the rest, I was dealing with sketchy information on a group of local pugs.

Using what I call "The Conn Chris Sub-Zero Ratings", I was able to put together a rough composite which I then tested in sims with Paycek. After a bit of tweaking, I was able to refine Savold's rating to the point where I had him consistantly hitting the mat for the count between rounds three and six against Paycek.

All things considered, the result, if not the rating, is fairly realistic. But by no means is the attached a finished product.

I'll wait for Hoot to give us the real deal!

[professordp]

I hope this works!

[professordp]

I don't think you can actually import the file en masse (all at once). You have to open the file and import each rating. At least that's how I recall the process when I first added them.

[IDES]

Thanks Prof- I'll try it again tonight .
Tom

[professordp]

Since I've gotten a few pm's concerning the "Chris Sub-Zero Templates" which I utilize in developing TBCB ratings, I thought I'd mention another template which I also employ when working on ratings.

These were created by a member named "Montreal" in 2004 (does he still check in here?) and were posted at the old "Cornerworks" website.

Unfortunately, the zip file size exceeds the limits for posting here. I'll check with Chris to see if he has them posted elsewhere. If you want them right away, just pm me with your email address, and I'll send them to you asap.

How do I employ these templates? Typically, when I'm working on a boxer who has fought a lot of stiffs, I match him up against different levels of sub-zero levels until he starts to perform as he did in actuality. (See my discussion of Terry Kreuger a few pages back).

That sort of gives me a general idea as to where he falls in terms of his level...from that point on, it's a matter of just refining the rating.

The templates allow you to establish a figher's "basement". Typically, you already have his "ceiling" in the form of the best fighters he's faced...they're rated and in the TBCB data pool. Working through the levels in the sub-zero rankings gives you the opportunity to narrow the range of his rating.

Think of the vise in your workshop; as you turn it, you constrict the available space.

And remember, as Chris has demonstrated, all "0" boxers are not equal!!!

[professordp]

No, I'm not about to make that argument! Rather I took the thought from a "puff" piece on the Bobicks which apeared in an old issue of The Ring (June 1974). To be sure, the suggestion that Rodney was the "Real Bobick" was in large part hype.

Nevertheless, in 1974, the brothers were pretty much ranked equal by The Ring in both the annual ratings and the monthly United States rankings.

Unlike his high-profile brother, Rodney didn't have much of an amatuer career, turning pro at age eighteen in 1972. Duane started boxing for cash a year later at twenty-three.

Lacking his brother's physique as well as his punching power, Rodney didn't draw the national attention enjoyed by Duane, although he had a strong following among Minnestoa boxing fans.

They had a number of common opponents including Scott LeDoux, Mike Schutte, Pedro Agosto, Jimmy Cross, Lou Bailey, Rico Brooks, Mike Weaver, Harold Carter, and Raul Gorosito.

Typically, Rodney would be on "point", seemingly scouting for his big brother by fighting these guys first. Usually, Rodney's match would end in a decision (sometime winning...sometimes losing) while Duane would characteristically knock the guy out at a later date.

The highpoint of Rodney's career was actually a loss to Larry Holmes in 1975 as part of the undercard for the "Thriller in Manila". Although outclassed, and stopped via TKO in the sixth round, Rodney proved to be a tough opponent, never backing away from Holmes. (See the video)

Larry Holmes vs. Rodney Bobick (Pt. 1 of 2) - YouTube

A review this video and reading accounts (albeit brief) of Bobick's other fights in The Ring resulted in this alternative rating for Bobick.

Although I've not changed much of the substance of the rating, I did make a major change stylistically.

The default rating has Bobick as a "Boxer" with a "Fight Inside" rating of 1 who "Seldom" fouls. In my eyes this just doesn't reflect reality.

As you can see from the above cited video, Bobick was an inside banger, looping shoots with little use of his jab. Constantly moving towards his opponent, Rodney leaned his 6'3", 220-230 lbs. frame on his opponent to wear down the other guy. A clean fighter? Read accounts of his battles with Scott LeDoux and think about him "seldom" fouling!

Angelo Dundee recognized these traits and hired Bobick to serve as one of Ali's primary sparring partners as the Champ prepared for his third fight with Frazier. As you'll hear Kenny Norton say during the Holmes-Bobick fight commentary, Rodney sort of emulated Smokin' Joe's style.

Tragically, Rodney was killed in a car crash at age twenty-five on June 5, 1977. So we'll never know how his career would have turned out. One month prior to Rodney's death, Duane was stopped by Norton in one round and began a rather quick descent.

Thus, perhaps the statement that Rodney was the "better" Bobick was something more than hype.

I'd like to give proper credit for the photo...most likely it's from Cube...but I'm not 100% certain.

[professordp]

Here it is in XML...so you'll have to enter it manually.

[professordp]

As boxiing moved through the 1970s, there emerged a new subgenus of boxer somewhat akin to the old club fighter. For the lack of a better term, I'll call this breed "casino gladiators".

Like the club fighters of old, these pugs were not of exceptional abilities, but took root in particular cities (usually Las Vegas) where they staged most of their bouts.

Earl Tripp was your typical casino gladiator who in the span of his brief four year pro career fought all but three of his twenty-one pro matches in Las Vegas...thirteen of which were in the Silver Slipper, where he was somewhat of a fixture.

Tripp generally squared off against fighters who were also based in Sin City, which was pretty much the norm.

Even by the standards of forty years ago, Tripp was small for a heavyweight (standing at 5'11" and usually tipping the scales at about 195 lbs.).

Tripp was one of those poor souls that I call a "tweener". He couldn't get the weight down to 175 to match up against light heavies, and he was really too small to mix it up with the big guys.

There wasn't really a cruiserweight division at the time that Earl fought, so BoxRec lists him as an heavyweight. I rated him as a cruiser, however, for reasons I'll expalin below.

With a few excptions, his opponents were rather nondescript, thus allowing him to compile decent looking paper record of 16 (KO 10) and 5 (3 by KO).

Outside of Tony Pulu, who was kayoed by just about everybody in the 70s, you wouldn't recognize any of the names of his knockout victims, so I won't bother to mention them.

He defeated Kevin Isaacs in the New York Golden Glove to take the city heavyweight title but dropped a unanmous decision to him in the pros. He also scored a ten round decision over S.T. Gordon but lost two subsequent rematches via kayo. Earl also squeaked out a decision over the one-armed Leroy Caldwell but was taken out in one by the rising Michael Dokes who outweighed Tripp by more than twenty pounds.

The Ring (May 1979) did a feature on him..are you ready..."Earl Tripp:New Heavyweight Threat". Cutting through the hype, which was rather thick, you got a good sense of his limitations

Just listen to his manager, Stan Tischler, who was quoted extensively in the article.

"Earl is the best fighter I've had so far in my thirty years of managing."

I guess that poor old Stan had three very lean decades before he hooked up with Tripp.

"Earl reminds me of Joe Louis in the way he punches."

No doubt he was speaking about the Joe Louis of the 1970s who was sixty-five, in ill-health, and confined to a wheel chair when this article went to press, and not the Brown Bomber circa, 1930s-40s.

The article goes on to mention that Tripp had a certain affinty for the canvas, getting dumped in several of his fights.

Earl could go the distance and sometimes win against a light hitter like Caldwell, but when matched against someone who could belt, like Gordon or Dokes, Tripp was in trouble.

Looking over his record, Earl generally fought guys who were his weight...roughly 195 lbs. So although I have him as a cruiser, you need not do a pre-match weight adjustment when he's squaring off against the heavies who are on the light side.

But when he's facing someone 200 lbs. plus, you should do the weight class adjustment for a more realistic result.

[professordp]

Basically, there are two things that you do with horses...ride them or eat them.

Analogous to professional boxing, there are fighters who are trial horses and those who are red meat.

The former serve as testing grounds, affording young prospects a chance to hone their skills as they progress through the ranks. The latter provide an opportunity to beef up a fighter's record at minimal risk.

Such was the case with Tony Pulu, a 1970s heavyweight from Tonga, who began his career on the running track and ended it at the abattoir.

At 5'10" and usually weighing in around 210 lbs., the short, squat, stocky Pulu turned pro at sixteen, compiling a record of 9 (5 by KO) wins against only one loss, There's one caveat, however. All of these matches were held in Nukualofa, Tonga and recorded in BoxRec with the advisory, "exact date unknown". That always makes me wonder!

Tony's only loss was a ten round decision against Fonomanu Young Sekona. Sekona would later go on to win New Zealand's heavyweight crown and fight on the international stage with minimal results. The Pulu fight was Sekona's first as a pro.

Taking a year off from boxing, Pulu emigrated to the United States in 1973 and became a fixture on undercards at the Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles. Tony typically fought six rounders against guys who thought about a professional boxing career but ultimately decided to move on to something more in line with their abilities.

The only fights of note during this period were a second round TKO loss to a young Mike Weaver (with a 2-3 record) and three bouts with Marty Monroe. Monroe outpointed Pulu in their first meeting (a four rounder). A month later they fought a five round draw. Six months after that, Marty flattened Pulu in the third at the Las Vegas Tropicana.

Following the third Monroe fight, Pulu walked away from the ring, only to resurface three years later when he was planted in one round by cruiserweight Earl Tripp at the Silver Slipper.

Pulu moved on to Salt Lake City where he became a fixture at the Salt Palace for the next few years. The change of scenery intially proved positive for Pulu, at least in the beginning.

He started out fighting main events at the Palace defeating local favorite Jeff Shelburg by unanimous ten round decisions in his first two bouts in Salt Lake City. Beating Shelburg twice put him in line for the Utah state heavyweight belt which he gained by taking out Freddie News (5-1 at the time) in the first round. Nine months later, he would kayo News again (this time in five) to retain the crown.

In between his two fights with News, it seemed time for Tony to move up to the next rung in the divisional ladder. A ten rounder was scheduled against Columbian slugger Bernardo Mercado. This didn't work out well for Pulu who took a pretty bad beating for eight founds before the match was stopped.

The Mecado match seemed to have a transformational impact upon Pulu and put him on the path to the boxing slaughterhouse. After the second News fight, he was kayoed by Reggie Phillips in five...it was only Phillips' third pro contest! Two months later, Olympic heavyweight silver medalist (1976 Olympics) Micea Simon of Romania planted Pulu in three.

After the loss to Simon, Pulu became an infrequent fighter. Following a layoff of more than a year, he was knocked out in six by Stan Ward. This led to another twelve month hiatus from boxing. In his return to the ring in 1981, Tony dropped a unanimous six round decision to Marvis Frazier.

Now Pulu's periods of inactivity grew longer. Moreiver, it became obvious that Tony was no longer a trial horse but simply a piece of red meat.

Away from boxing for two years, Pulu was pounded to the canvas in three by James Broad. He then sat out another two years and in March 1985, he fought his last professional fight against future Canadian heavyweight champ Willie de Wit, who had only two pro bouts prior to meeting Pulu. Tony's sixteen year career ended that night when he was counted out in the third round.

In setting a condition rating, given the "in-and-out" nature of Pulu's career, I was torn between an 8 (Fights Too Frequently) and a 7 (Inactive Fighter).

After a virtual coin flip, I settled on the 8 rating which was a reflection of his days at the Olympic Auditorium and his comeback period in Salt Lake City.

But if you are simming him in fights after 1979, I'd suggest that you change is conditioning to 7 for a more realistic result.

The photo was posted by Jofre several years ago.