Poor talent in recent Draft Years - Page 4

Righty Groove · 05-11-2013, 07:37 PM

Another question: how are the options "overall ratings based on all players, not positions" and "overall ratings based on AI evaluation, not actual ratings" in your league?

Mine are un-checked, as is default.

byzeil · 05-11-2013, 07:38 PM

Well the quality of the draft pool MIGHT be affected by the overall quality of the league otherwise I would think it would not be easy to keep overall league production fairly consistent.

Totally out of my league there though, need someone that knows more abot the stats engine than I do.

I'm at a loss for now of what the difference is between my set up and yours.

You might want to set up a test league from scratch, everything default, and take a look at the draft pool.

byzeil · 05-11-2013, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Righty Groove

Another question: how are the options "overall ratings based on all players, not positions" and "overall ratings based on AI evaluation, not actual ratings" in your league?

Mine are un-checked, as is default.

I don't have either of those checked. Checking the first one causes issues with the Player Dev Reports (a bug I reported).

Lafayette53 · 05-11-2013, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byzeil

As far as I know the quality of players in the draft pool doesn't ave anything to do with the overall quality of talent in the league. In other words if the league has a lot of talent is the draft pool toned down? I don't think so but I really don't know the answer.

Edit: My PCMs are all 1.000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Righty Groove

That would be my answer aswell. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's not related.

Apologies if you answered this question already, but did you import from '13? If so the talent not measuring up in '14 is what I'd guess the issue is, mainly because we all seem to have noticed slightly less overall, and regardless of whether you did I'd make another quick test league starting in '14 to see if the problem persists. I mean talent creation has never been perfect, but I haven't seen anything like what you describe so I'm a bit flummoxed.

Righty Groove · 05-11-2013, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byzeil

Well the quality of the draft pool MIGHT be affected by the overall quality of the league otherwise I would think it would not be easy to keep overall league production fairly consistent.

Totally out of my league there though, need someone that knows more abot the stats engine than I do.

I'm at a loss for now of what the difference is between my set up and yours.

You might want to set up a test league from scratch, everything default, and take a look at the draft pool.

I'm doing that right now, will post soon. It seems like it matches your results...

Righty Groove · 05-11-2013, 07:44 PM

League created from scratch, 100% canadian, players created 18-19 years-old.

150 (!) players with potential rating 50+

Righty Groove · 05-11-2013, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafayette53

Apologies if you answered this question already, but did you import from '13? If so the talent not measuring up in '14 is what I'd guess the issue is, mainly because we all seem to have noticed slightly less overall, and regardless of whether you did I'd make another quick test league starting in '14 to see if the problem persists. I mean talent creation has never been perfect, but I haven't seen anything like what you describe so I'm a bit flummoxed.

Thanks for the input. Yes, the league is imported, and seems the problem is with that league...

byzeil · 05-11-2013, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lafayette53

Apologies if you answered this question already, but did you import from '13? If so the talent not measuring up in '14 is what I'd guess the issue is, mainly because we all seem to have noticed slightly less overall, and regardless of whether you did I'd make another quick test league starting in '14 to see if the problem persists. I mean talent creation has never been perfect, but I haven't seen anything like what you describe so I'm a bit flummoxed.

I ave tested it in both an Imported from v13 league and have created test leagues in v14 and haven't seen the issue. The difference is that the league that I imported from v13 to v14 uses Feeder Leagues and the v14 test league does not to match Righty Grooves' setup.

byzeil · 05-11-2013, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Righty Groove

Thanks for the input. Yes, the league is imported, and seems the problem is with that league...

I would submit a Bug ticket and ask them directly to look at it. Seems my imported league with Feeders isn't having the issue but your imported league without feeders is having the issue. Also point them to this thread so they can see what we hhave done.

Also, I would go through all the league setting comparing the default in the new test league you created with your imported league in case something got wonked in the import.

byzeil · 05-11-2013, 07:51 PM

I think I will try one more thing. I'm going to create a league in v13 (as I set up my test league for this), sim a few seasons then import it into v14 and check it out.

Righty Groove · 05-11-2013, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byzeil

I would submit a Bug ticket and ask them directly to look at it. Seems my imported league with Feeders isn't having the issue but your imported league without feeders is having the issue. Also point them to this thread so they can see what we hhave done.

Also, I would go through all the league setting comparing the default in the new test league you created with your imported league in case something got wonked in the import.

Thanks, I'll try to get some help there. I'll definetely direct them here.

I don't think the issue is with league import, as only one of the leagues on my saved game (Canada league) is having problems, while the US league is generating draft pool similar to yours.

I'll mess around with league setup, see if I can luck it out. Maybe it's the overall talent of the league thing, afterall...

Once again, thanks a lot for the help. I'll sure post anything I find here.

byzeil · 05-11-2013, 08:02 PM

You may have trouble getting into the Support Website, I did at first. Then I got some help and I had to clear my browser cookies and when I would log into the support site DO NOT check the remember me box. When I do that I get a Server Error. If I do not check 'Remember Me' it works fine. Once you check it you have to clear cookies again.

endgame · 05-11-2013, 08:12 PM

Well, good luck gaining some perspective on what may be occurring with your league. Given the hiatus/vacation status, don't be surprised if it's some time before you have any sort of response in terms of answers.

May I add that sometimes the Thanks button just isn't enough. byzeil, the contributions and patience you've demonstrated in these helpful exchanges are a testament to what makes a community like this thrive.

byzeil · 05-11-2013, 08:44 PM

Did one last test. Created the Canadian league in v13, simmed a season then imported it into v14. Then simmed up to the draft pool and the draft pool looks fine. So as unlikely as it was it doesn't look like it has anything to do with Canada

Quote:

Originally Posted by endgame

May I add that sometimes the Thanks button just isn't enough. byzeil, the contributions and patience you've demonstrated in these helpful exchanges are a testament to what makes a community like this thrive.

Thanks Endgame. This is a great game made better by the user community. I have zero problem helping anyone as long as they are respectful and open to ideas and looking at things from other perspectives. 'Righty Groove' was very co-operative and willing to work with me and hopefully we have narrowed down his problem some.

Righty Groove · 05-11-2013, 09:23 PM

Thanks a lot for your time, byzeil. I'm in the process of uploading my league files to submit a support ticket. I'll share anything I find here. It seems there is something on the league.

If you are interested, I can make the files avaible to you aswell.

Endgame's comments about it probably taking a while for me to get an answer on that made me somewhat pessimistic on that front. No offense, endgame, I'm just very attached to this saved game and it pains me to play it without knowing if it's messed up beyond repair.

milkman41 · 05-22-2013, 10:58 AM

I hope this isn't a repeat post, since I see that people have had similar issues and I'm not sure they've really been resolved. I just got to the announcement of my upcoming draft class, and I felt the talent quality was poor (using star ratings). After changing to 20-80 scale and running a re-scout (though the re-scout doesn't appear to change anything), the draft class is still poor (only 9 players with potential above 50).

This is a major-league game started in OOTP13, which I've run for several season (at 2021 now) and then imported into OOTP14, and I know there's been some stuff regarding the conversion resulting in low player potentials. I don't use feeder leagues. I do have the latest patch as well.

I hope I haven't rehashed too many old problems, but I looked through some old posts and I don't think I got a definitive answer as to a) whether or not this is normal (in which case I'll just have to suck it up and deal with it), and b) if this is abnormal, can anything be done to fix it?

Thanks in advance.

HH20xx convert · 05-22-2013, 11:34 AM

Thanks for posting milkman41. It helps keep this issue in front of the OOTP brain trust.

TNCubsFan · 05-22-2013, 11:47 AM

YMMV.

The overall talent pool is the same its just that your scouts are behaving in a more human way. Remember the movie "Moneyball"? The scouts are telling Beanes parents that most kids only have one or two tools and they hope to develop another one. Basically thats what the scouts are telling you too. I had a scout tell me that the first time he saw Tim Hudson pitch he knew he was going to have a long MLB career as long as he stayed healthy. The same scout was almost fired for not turning in one of our kids who touched 93 with wicked movement from the left side in an open camp.

Scouts dont make their reputations on first round draft picks. They make them on 30th rounders who make contributions to the ML team. Scouts dont keep their jobs telling the brain trust that this kid is the next Mickey Mantle. They keep it by finding the kids who develop.

sprague · 05-22-2013, 12:15 PM

This has been a very interesting discussion.
Here is why I disagree with the set up of drafts as is

Some say it is more "real-life" to not really be sure who is going to develop or not, because that is how things work in real life
But in real life, scouts go out and interview the player, the coaches, the parents. They get a chance to look for something that others miss. A scout sees potential when others don't see it- there is nothing in the game to allow that to happen really if the 'devlopment" engine of young players is mostly random. A 3 star pitcher or a 3 star catcher or a 3 star left fielder are equal. Thus for the game's purposes it makes more sense that they will likely become a 3 star

NOW if the game could somehow give one a chance to "reveal" a hidden modifier for a player- ie one player has actually more than 3 star potential, while another is really a 1 but just looking like 3, and I had the chance of with the right scout to find the hidden modifier, what the player will really become, then this system makes sense for realism. Without that it really doesn't matter who you draft at all after picks 1-3 as their is no way of determining what underlying factors might be there

2 cents..

BIG17EASY · 05-22-2013, 12:25 PM

I agree with sprague, this has been very interesting.

Maybe Markus and crew should look at rating players the way Baseball America started doing last year. They put a potential rating (20-80 scale on increments of five) on a guy that they believe is the ceiling (or absolute best) a guy could turn out to be. Then they rate that player's chances of reaching that ceiling. I don't have my Prospect Handbook here at work, but I think it's something like low, medium and high to rate the chances of maxing out the potential.

So a guy could be a 70 potential, but have a low chance of reaching that, and another guy could be a 60 potential with a high chance of reaching that. So which guy would you draft?

A system like this would allow us to see some higher potentials in the draft pool while still having the real-life variability without it "feeling" random. Maybe they could even build in something like the need to scout a guy at least three times or have him in your organization for an entire year in order to reveal that secondary rating.

Just some thoughts.

05-11-2013, 07:44 PM	#66
Righty Groove Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 262	League created from scratch, 100% canadian, players created 18-19 years-old. 150 (!) players with potential rating 50+ Attached Images

05-11-2013, 08:02 PM	#72
byzeil Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: NJ, US Posts: 2,002	You may have trouble getting into the Support Website, I did at first. Then I got some help and I had to clear my browser cookies and when I would log into the support site DO NOT check the remember me box. When I do that I get a Server Error. If I do not check 'Remember Me' it works fine. Once you check it you have to clear cookies again. Last edited by byzeil; 05-11-2013 at 08:05 PM.

05-11-2013, 08:12 PM	#73
endgame Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 16,843	Well, good luck gaining some perspective on what may be occurring with your league. Given the hiatus/vacation status, don't be surprised if it's some time before you have any sort of response in terms of answers. May I add that sometimes the Thanks button just isn't enough. byzeil, the contributions and patience you've demonstrated in these helpful exchanges are a testament to what makes a community like this thrive. __________________ "Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett _____________________________________________

05-22-2013, 11:47 AM	#78
TNCubsFan Major Leagues Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 300	YMMV. The overall talent pool is the same its just that your scouts are behaving in a more human way. Remember the movie "Moneyball"? The scouts are telling Beanes parents that most kids only have one or two tools and they hope to develop another one. Basically thats what the scouts are telling you too. I had a scout tell me that the first time he saw Tim Hudson pitch he knew he was going to have a long MLB career as long as he stayed healthy. The same scout was almost fired for not turning in one of our kids who touched 93 with wicked movement from the left side in an open camp. Scouts dont make their reputations on first round draft picks. They make them on 30th rounders who make contributions to the ML team. Scouts dont keep their jobs telling the brain trust that this kid is the next Mickey Mantle. They keep it by finding the kids who develop. __________________ "If a tie is like kissing your sister, losing is like kissing your grandmother with her teeth out" George Brett HOF

05-11-2013, 07:37 PM	#61
Righty Groove Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 262	Another question: how are the options "overall ratings based on all players, not positions" and "overall ratings based on AI evaluation, not actual ratings" in your league? Mine are un-checked, as is default.

05-11-2013, 07:38 PM	#62
byzeil Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: NJ, US Posts: 2,002	Well the quality of the draft pool MIGHT be affected by the overall quality of the league otherwise I would think it would not be easy to keep overall league production fairly consistent. Totally out of my league there though, need someone that knows more abot the stats engine than I do. I'm at a loss for now of what the difference is between my set up and yours. You might want to set up a test league from scratch, everything default, and take a look at the draft pool.

05-11-2013, 07:51 PM	#70
byzeil Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: NJ, US Posts: 2,002	I think I will try one more thing. I'm going to create a league in v13 (as I set up my test league for this), sim a few seasons then import it into v14 and check it out.

05-11-2013, 09:23 PM	#75
Righty Groove Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 262	Thanks a lot for your time, byzeil. I'm in the process of uploading my league files to submit a support ticket. I'll share anything I find here. It seems there is something on the league. If you are interested, I can make the files avaible to you aswell. Endgame's comments about it probably taking a while for me to get an answer on that made me somewhat pessimistic on that front. No offense, endgame, I'm just very attached to this saved game and it pains me to play it without knowing if it's messed up beyond repair.

05-22-2013, 10:58 AM	#76
milkman41 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 94	I hope this isn't a repeat post, since I see that people have had similar issues and I'm not sure they've really been resolved. I just got to the announcement of my upcoming draft class, and I felt the talent quality was poor (using star ratings). After changing to 20-80 scale and running a re-scout (though the re-scout doesn't appear to change anything), the draft class is still poor (only 9 players with potential above 50). This is a major-league game started in OOTP13, which I've run for several season (at 2021 now) and then imported into OOTP14, and I know there's been some stuff regarding the conversion resulting in low player potentials. I don't use feeder leagues. I do have the latest patch as well. I hope I haven't rehashed too many old problems, but I looked through some old posts and I don't think I got a definitive answer as to a) whether or not this is normal (in which case I'll just have to suck it up and deal with it), and b) if this is abnormal, can anything be done to fix it? Thanks in advance.

05-22-2013, 11:34 AM	#77
HH20xx convert Minors (Triple A) Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 225	Thanks for posting milkman41. It helps keep this issue in front of the OOTP brain trust.

05-22-2013, 12:15 PM	#79
sprague All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,921	This has been a very interesting discussion. Here is why I disagree with the set up of drafts as is Some say it is more "real-life" to not really be sure who is going to develop or not, because that is how things work in real life But in real life, scouts go out and interview the player, the coaches, the parents. They get a chance to look for something that others miss. A scout sees potential when others don't see it- there is nothing in the game to allow that to happen really if the 'devlopment" engine of young players is mostly random. A 3 star pitcher or a 3 star catcher or a 3 star left fielder are equal. Thus for the game's purposes it makes more sense that they will likely become a 3 star NOW if the game could somehow give one a chance to "reveal" a hidden modifier for a player- ie one player has actually more than 3 star potential, while another is really a 1 but just looking like 3, and I had the chance of with the right scout to find the hidden modifier, what the player will really become, then this system makes sense for realism. Without that it really doesn't matter who you draft at all after picks 1-3 as their is no way of determining what underlying factors might be there 2 cents..

05-22-2013, 12:25 PM	#80
BIG17EASY Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,291	I agree with sprague, this has been very interesting. Maybe Markus and crew should look at rating players the way Baseball America started doing last year. They put a potential rating (20-80 scale on increments of five) on a guy that they believe is the ceiling (or absolute best) a guy could turn out to be. Then they rate that player's chances of reaching that ceiling. I don't have my Prospect Handbook here at work, but I think it's something like low, medium and high to rate the chances of maxing out the potential. So a guy could be a 70 potential, but have a low chance of reaching that, and another guy could be a 60 potential with a high chance of reaching that. So which guy would you draft? A system like this would allow us to see some higher potentials in the draft pool while still having the real-life variability without it "feeling" random. Maybe they could even build in something like the need to scout a guy at least three times or have him in your organization for an entire year in order to reveal that secondary rating. Just some thoughts.