Confused by Draft Pick Compensation

[actionjackson]

First off, thank you Markus for putting in something to unravel the mystery of which first round picks (or second round, or sometimes third round, and even fourth round) are coming from which teams as compensation for Type A free agents (you'll see what I'm talking about in the pretty pictures below). If indeed you did put that in the latest patch thank you. I've never seen it before, so I assume it was something in the latest patch. It has unfortunately led to further confusion for me, which may or may not be surprising as I can sometimes be quite confused.

A little background: I'm currently playing a random debut historical in 1905, with free agency on, the draft on, and free agent compensation on. I'm using pre-2012 CBA rules (i.e. I have not checked the "Enable 2012 CBA rule changes" box on the Rules Page in League Settings), so arbitration does not have to be offered to players going to free agency in order for a team to be compensated in the draft. That also means there are Type A and Type B free agents in my drafts. This is where the confusion appears to be coming from. There are 19 picks in my draft in the supplemental round after round 1. By my count twelve of them must be Type As, as there are twelve picks where teams have taken another team's draft pick scattered throughout the first three rounds. That leaves seven picks that must be Type B picks.

The Type A picks break down as follows: the Senators have two (one from the A's, one from the Tigers), the Browns have two (both from the Americans [Red Sox]), the Phillies have one (from CLE), the Cubs have one (from the Cards), the Cards have one (from the Senators), the Naps (CLE) have one (from the Reds), the Highlanders (Yankees) have one (from the Cubs), the Tigers have one (from the Browns), the Superbas (Dodgers) have one (from the Highlanders), and the Giants have one (from the A's). Got all that? If not, see the pretty pictures below - the Type A picks run into the third round of the draft.

Here's where it gets interesting...Of the nineteen picks in the supplemental round, the Highlanders have none, despite obviously having a lost a Type A free agent to the Cubs. The Browns have just one despite losing two Type A free agents to the Americans. Phillies and Cleveland? Perfect, they each lost a Type A and they each have one pick in the supplemental round. The Senators have six picks (two Type As, so 4 Type Bs?). The Tigers have three picks (one Type A, so 2 Type Bs?). Brooklyn has three picks (one Type A, so 2 Type Bs?), and the Cubs have four picks (one Type A, so 3 Type Bs?). If my math is correct that's what should be twelve Type As, and eleven Type Bs, but there are only nineteen picks in the round. So...Uh...What gives? The pictures below are round 1, the supplemental round after round 1, round 2, and round 3. Any help is appreciated. Thank you.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

A little background: I'm currently playing a random debut historical in 1905, with free agency on, the draft on, and free agent compensation on. I'm using pre-2012 CBA rules (i.e. I have not checked the "Enable 2012 CBA rule changes" box on the Rules Page in League Settings), so arbitration does not have to be offered to players going to free agency in order for a team to be compensated in the draft.

Re: the bolded. Your statement is incorrect, at least according to the real life rules. In order to be eligible for draft pick compensation, arbitration must be offered to the free agent. This requirement goes all the way back to at least the 1990 CBA.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Re: the bolded. Your statement is incorrect, at least according to the real life rules. In order to be eligible for draft pick compensation, arbitration must be offered to the free agent. This requirement goes all the way back to at least the 1990 CBA.

Ok then, I'm wrong on that. Still doesn't change the original question as to why teams lost Type A free agents and are getting picks in the regular rounds, but not in the supplemental round (Highlanders and Browns), and why it appears there may be more Type Bs than expected in the supplemental round.

[Le Grande Orange]

What about compensation for unsigned picks from the prior year's draft? If I recall correctly, OOTP stuck all those in the supplemental round rather than the prior year's slot plus one called for by the real-life rules.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

What about compensation for unsigned picks from the prior year's draft? If I recall correctly, OOTP stuck all those in the supplemental round rather than the prior year's slot plus one called for by the real-life rules.

Except that I don't use draft bonuses, so everyone gets drafted and nobody goes unsigned.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

What about compensation for unsigned picks from the prior year's draft? If I recall correctly, OOTP stuck all those in the supplemental round rather than the prior year's slot plus one called for by the real-life rules.

That's not true at least since last year. I know in v18 I had the Royals pick 1(2) in 2032 after having the 1(1) not sign with them in 2031.

[Matt Arnold]

You'd need to chart things out to figure it fully. However do note that another way things can change is say team A has a protected pick and loses a type A FA. If they then go sign a type A guy themselves, then the other team will get their comp pick, not their second round pick back.

There's a chance we still have some things messed up. I know we have issues where the picks are taken away in the order players are signed, not based on talent. It's complicated, but You'd need to write down exactly who was signed when to see if we actually messed up one of the transfers.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

You'd need to chart things out to figure it fully. However do note that another way things can change is say team A has a protected pick and loses a type A FA. If they then go sign a type A guy themselves, then the other team will get their comp pick, not their second round pick back.

There's a chance we still have some things messed up. I know we have issues where the picks are taken away in the order players are signed, not based on talent. It's complicated, but You'd need to write down exactly who was signed when to see if we actually messed up one of the transfers.

Thanks for the response Matt. I'll do the best I can with the upcoming 1905/1906 free agent class, and the subsequent 1906 draft order and see what happens. I'll record my progress in this thread and see if I/we can nail this down. I notice quite a few Type As and Type Bs go unsigned into the subsequent regular season. Does that mean the compensation does not apply to them? I'll keep track of them/that too. Thanks again for responding to my question. Cheers.

[Matt Arnold]

If they sign before the draft, then I believe they should still get compensation. If they sign after then there shouldn't be.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

If they sign before the draft, then I believe they should still get compensation. If they sign after then there shouldn't be.

I hold my draft on November 1st every year, and the free agents seem to file mid-November every year, so that's about one year or so to sign, which is different from RL, where free agents file in November and the draft happens the next June, which is about seven months.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

There's a chance we still have some things messed up. I know we have issues where the picks are taken away in the order players are signed, not based on talent. It's complicated, but You'd need to write down exactly who was signed when to see if we actually messed up one of the transfers.

It doesn't help that MLB seems determined to make its draft order ever-more complicated thanks to free agent compensation, competitive balance picks, losing picks as penalties for violating certain luxury tax thresholds, etc.

[actionjackson]

The 1905/1906 offseason is underway, and I've arrived at the free agent filing day, so I can capture all these suckers before they head off to their respective teams. I'll post Type As and Type Bs in alphabetical order with the teams they are leaving. There will be a follow up post with the teams they wound up signing with, so I can nail this down, and see if things are happening as they should. There are 10 Type As and 17 Type Bs amongst 103 free agents.

Type As:

Jim Clancy, RHP (St. Louis Browns)
Rene Gonzales, 1B/2B/3B/SS (Detroit Tigers)
Kenley Jansen, RHP (St. Louis Cardinals)
Cliff P Lee, LHP (Philadelphia Athletics)
Raul Mondesi, CF/RF (Washington Senators)
Al Orth, RHP (Chicago Cubs)
Preacher Roe, LHP (Detroit Tigers)
Brett Tomko, RHP (St. Louis Cardinals)
Bill Walker, LHP (Brooklyn Superbas)
Irv Young, LHP (St. Louis Cardinals)

Type Bs:

Brian Asselstine, LF/CF/RF (Cleveland Naps)
Lou Bierbauer, 2B (Detroit Tigers)
Lena Blackburne, 2B/3B/SS (Philadelphia Athletics)
Danny Green, RF (Boston Americans)
Don Gullett, LHP (Cincinnati Reds)
Chuck Hinton, 1B/LF/RF (St. Louis Browns)
Phil Knell, LHP (St. Louis Browns)
Dennis Leonard, RHP (Philadelphia Athletics)
Jerry Morales, LF/RF (Boston Americans)
Greg Norton, 1B/3B/LF/RF (Washington Senators)
Augie Ojeda, 2B/3B/SS (Cincinnati Reds)
Tony Perez, 1B (Chicago Cubs)
Dave Revering, 1B (Pittsburgh Pirates)
Chris Speier, SS (St. Louis Browns)
David Wells, LHP (Washington Senators)
Roy White, LF (Chicago Cubs)
Mark Whiten, LF/CF/RF (Chicago Cubs)

[bwburke94]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

What about compensation for unsigned picks from the prior year's draft? If I recall correctly, OOTP stuck all those in the supplemental round rather than the prior year's slot plus one called for by the real-life rules.

Don't forget that this is the pre-2012 CBA. Though the rule was changed by the end of the decade, the rule in the mid-2000s put unsigned-draftee compensation at the back end of the supplemental round.


The Orioles failed to sign Wade Townsend (#8 pick in 2004), and their 2005 compensation was #48, not #9.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by bwburke94

Don't forget that this is the pre-2012 CBA. Though the rule was changed by the end of the decade, the rule in the mid-2000s put unsigned-draftee compensation at the back end of the supplemental round.

The unsigned compensation draft pick position change started in 2007, if I recall correctly.

[bwburke94]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

The unsigned compensation draft pick position change started in 2007, if I recall correctly.

I suppose that the best option for the future is to make it a separate toggle from the 2012 CBA toggle.

[actionjackson]

Ok, I've reached Opening Day, 1906. Not everyone has signed yet, but I'll post them all, where they were, and where they've gone (if they've gone).

Type As:

Jim Clancy, St. Louis Browns ===> St. Louis Cardinals (01/18/1906)
Rene Gonzalez, Detroit Tigers ===> Chicago Cubs (12/16/1905)
Kenley Jansen, St. Louis Cardinals ===> Detroit Tigers (12/29/1905)
Cliff P Lee, Philadelphia Athletics ===> Chicago Cubs (02/02/1906)
Raul Mondesi, Washington Senators ===> unsigned
Al Orth, Chicago Cubs ===> Philadelphia Phillies (02/13/1906)
Preacher Roe, Detroit Tigers ===> unsigned
Brett Tomko, St. Louis Cardinals ===> St. Louis Browns (12/31/1905)
Bill Walker, Brooklyn Superbas ===> St. Louis Browns (01/08/1906)
Irv Young, St. Louis Cardinals ===> Chicago Cubs (01/19/1906)

Type Bs:

Brian Asselstine, Cleveland Naps ===> unsigned
Lou Bierbauer, Detroit Tigers ===> Boston Americans (Minor League FA Signing [11/11/1905])
Lena Blackburne, Philadelphia Athletics ===> St. Louis Browns (12/04/1905)
Danny Green, Boston Americans ===> unsigned
Don Gullett, Cincinnati Reds ===> unsigned
Chuck Hinton, St. Louis Browns ===> unsigned
Phil Knell, St. Louis Browns ===> unsigned
Dennis Leonard, Philadelphia Athletics ===> unsigned
Jerry Morales, Boston Americans ===> Philadelphia Athletics (Minor League FA Signing [03/26/1906])
Greg Norton, Washington Senators ===> St. Louis Browns (03/09/1906)
Augie Ojeda, Cincinnati Reds ===> unsigned
Tony Perez, Chicago Cubs ===> unsigned
Dave Revering, Pittsburgh Pirates ===> unsigned
Chris Speier, St. Louis Browns ===> St. Louis Cardinals (01/01/1906)
David Wells, Washington Senators ===> Chicago White Sox (12/29/1905)
Roy White, Chicago Cubs ===> Boston Beaneaters (12/03/1905)
Mark Whiten, Chicago Cubs ===> unsigned

I'll continue to track this as the season goes along and see if things match up when the draft pool and draft order are revealed later in the season.

EDIT: Oops, forgot to put in the dates when players were signed, which I think has an impact on order in the compensation round. Will add in now.

[actionjackson]

Unsigned leftover players as of May 1st, 1906:

Type As:

Raul Mondesi, Washington Senators ===> Boston Americans (04/22/1906)
Preacher Roe, Detroit Tigers ===> St. Louis Cardinals (04/14/1906)

Type Bs:

Danny Green, Boston Americans ===> Washington Senators (04/18/1906)
Chuck Hinton, St. Louis Browns ===> New York Giants (04/09/1906)
Phil Knell, St. Louis Browns ===> St. Louis Cardinals (04/14/1906)
Dennis Leonard, Philadelphia Athletics ===> Detroit Tigers (04/12/1906)
Augie Ojeda, Cincinnati Reds ===> Chicago White Sox (04/04/1906)
Tony Perez, Chicago Cubs ===> New York Highlanders (04/05/1906)
Dave Revering, Pittsburgh Pirates ===> Pittsburgh Pirates (04/04/1906)
Mark Whiten, Chicago Cubs ===> Chicago White Sox (04/06/1906)

Brian Asselstine, and Don Gullett are the only two free agents with comp picks attached to them that remain unsigned at this time.

EDIT: Puttin' in dates.

[actionjackson]

As of June 1st, 1906, Brian Asselstine has signed with the Washington Senators (05/05/1906) after having played with the Cleveland Naps in 1905. Don Gullett is still out there.

EDIT: As of June 30th, Gullett is still unsigned.

[hefalumps]

I don't know if this will help, but I did some extensive research on this back in OOTP16. Some of the behavior may have changed since then, but here's what I observed:

1) The default date is November 1st. To determine draft order, the game uses the reverse standings from the last completed regular season. That means if your draft is November 1st, 1971, the draft order is from the season that just finished - 1971. However, the FA compensation rules, including those teams with protected first round picks, were based on the *previous* year's standings - 1970. This confused me for awhile until I charted out several seasons - why certain 1st round picks were and weren't being protected from compensation. So with a November 1, 1971 draft, your draft order is based on the 1971 standings, the protected picks are based on the 1970 standings, and the FA compensation is based on the 1970-71 offseason. At least this is how it was in OOTP16 - 19 may be different.

2) One big problem I had with a November 1 draft was that some seasons, depending on the length of the postseason, the draft happened AFTER FAs filed. If the draft happened first, everything would occur as I noted above. But if the FAs filed before the draft happened, all the compensation picks would get reset. So a November 1, 1971 draft would still have a draft order based on 1971 standings, but protected picks and FA compensation were now based on 1971 standings and 1971-72 offseason (which hadn't happened yet). As a result, I moved my draft date to September 15th. That way I knew how things were going to line up every year. My September 15, 1971 draft would be based on 1970 standings with protected picks and FA compensation based on 1970 standings and 1970-71 offseason. It means that potentially historical players sign in the tail end of September and debut a year before they actually did in real life, but it was worth the trade-off for me to have everything lined up and less confusing

My last November 1 draft was in 1957, so it was based on the 1957 standings. I changed the draft date to September 15 in the 1957-58 offseason, so obviously that meant that the draft order for September 15, 1958 was the same as 1957, so the 1957 losers got an extra "early" pick. The 1958 losers eventually got their picks, they just had to wait a year.

3) Other observations (and these basically echo what Matt already stated):

- Teams signing multiple Type As lose their highest remaining pick. Has nothing to do with rankings of the FAs that are being lost. For example, if NYY signs the #20 Type A FA from BAL in November, and then NYY signs the #10 Type A FA from BOS in December, BAL gets the higher pick from NYY since they signed the first FA chronologically. In real MLB, BOS would get the higher pick since they signed the higher ranked Type A FA.
- Unlike MLB, compensation picks are unprotected. If Team 1 gets a compensation pick from Team 2, and then Team 2 signs a Type A FA from Team 3, that compensation pick can be taken by Team 3 if it's Team 2's highest unprotected pick in the draft. For example, NYY has the 12th overall pick in the draft out of 20, but signs a type A FA from STL - now STL has the 12th pick to go with their original 16th pick. But later in the offseason, STL signs a type A FA from BOS. Since the 12th pick is STL's highest unprotected pick, now BOS gets that 12th pick instead.

Like Matt said, the only way to be sure how it works is to do exactly what you're doing and chart everything, making notes day by day during the offseason and observing the changes in the draft order as players sign.

Hope this is helpful and not more confusing. And if you find behavior different in OOTP 19 from what I posted from OOTP 16 above, I'd be curious to hear about it!

[actionjackson]

Thanks for the response hefalumps. I do use November 1st, but my postseason is usually over between mid to late October, and my free agents don't file until mid-Novemberish, so I'm good on that front.

I think I'll continue to export the draft order and match it up so that everything (draft order plus which round Type A compensation picks must come from due to protected/unprotected pick status) is based on the just completed season. I see that as more fair to the teams that are coming off crappy seasons, whatever the reason for those crappy seasons.

I can only see the draft order when the upcoming draft pool is posted (in my case September 17th). I'm going to use that as my guideline as I noticed that there were 12 Type A compensation picks on September 17th, 1905, and by the time the draft rolled around on November 1st there were only eight. I happened to copy what I saw on September 17th, and went back to the twelve picks for November 1st, because again I think that's only fair. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but it seems to be what's right to me. All of this stuff kind of makes my head hurt, but I'm just going to try to muddle through it and do the best I can with the info given to me on September 17th. Thanks again for the help.