The European football thread

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by mlyons

All I want to know is who those other players and managers are who say Baines should be on the national team. I don't know -- I try to follow football as best as I can here in the US, but there's plenty I don't see. If there are expert observers who say Baines deserves the spot, I will happily concede the point. I'm saying I've never heard anyone say it before now, and I don't entirely trust the lone opinion of a Wigan fan over the man actually in charge of picking the national team and an (admittedly flawed but better than any available alternatives) objective rating system.

All I have to go by are the resources available to me, none of which (other than you) indicate to me that Baines would be a good choice for the national team. I'd love to be pointed towards different resources, though.

More than one or two England fans and experts will tell you not to trust Steve McLarens judgement, this is the manager who usually plays one of the top central midfield players (Gerrard) on the rightwing, he's also actually played Lampard on the wing and played Andy Johnson an out an out striker on the leftwing. McLaren was employed as a yes man and not a manager he was employed because he is squeaky clean as the FA didn't want another shambles like Sven, the FA know that a monkey could pretty much manage England and qualify them for tournaments and they also wanted someone who wouldn't get caught talking to Arabs or get caught with his secretary over the office desk that's why they chose McLaren not because he's a good manager.

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by rangers85

Wow, that was a load of BS from the refs in the Blackburn/West Ham match.

Didn't watch the game, just waiting for Match of the Day to see the highlights but big talking point was Zamoras goal by what I've heard.

[rangers85]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

Didn't watch the game, just waiting for Match of the Day to see the highlights but big talking point was Zamoras goal by what I've heard.

Yup, the goal was basically a shot in, Friedel (or maybe a defender) blocks it, it bounces out to Zamora who has a second shot at it and it hits Tevez on the goal line and bounces out. Ball went on the goal line twice, but never fully crossed the line (Never even half the ball crossed for that matter) and yet the assistant called it a goal. So not only did the ball never cross the line, but Tevez was in an offside position when he interfered with the ball and thus shouldn't have been a goal either.

Pretty well all 11 Blackburn players plead their case to the assistant to no avail.

The PK that got West Ham their first goal was questionable, but I could kind of see it, even though there wasn't any intent and seemed more accidental than anything.

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by rangers85

Yup, the goal was basically a shot in, Friedel (or maybe a defender) blocks it, it bounces out to Zamora who has a second shot at it and it hits Tevez on the goal line and bounces out. Ball went on the goal line twice, but never fully crossed the line (Never even half the ball crossed for that matter) and yet the assistant called it a goal. So not only did the ball never cross the line, but Tevez was in an offside position when he interfered with the ball and thus shouldn't have been a goal either.

Pretty well all 11 Blackburn players plead their case to the assistant to no avail.

The PK that got West Ham their first goal was questionable, but I could kind of see it, even though there wasn't any intent and seemed more accidental than anything.

I can see the penalty being given and not being given it was one of those decisions, the sending off was terrible as well but Zamoras goal was shocking it wasn't even close to over the line. Neill and Curbishley have just been interviewed after the game and they both came up with the old chestnut "we deserve some luck" so their pretty much saying the decisions went their way.

[ukhotstove]

You should watch the Spurs v Watford game, Paul Robinson (Spurs) scored from around 80 yards away not only very rare a goalkeeper scoring but can't ever think of an England International goalkeeper scoring against another England International goalkeeper

[rangers85]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

I can see the penalty being given and not being given it was one of those decisions, the sending off was terrible as well but Zamoras goal was shocking it wasn't even close to over the line. Neill and Curbishley have just been interviewed after the game and they both came up with the old chestnut "we deserve some luck" so their pretty much saying the decisions went their way.

Yup, saw some quotes from Curbishley along those lines on the web, but there's definitely a line between some luck and utter robbing and that was way past the luck line. Mark Hughes was pissed during the match and wouldn't be surprised if there's not an appeal on the send off, plus a few choice words for the FA about the refs.

[ukhotstove]

They didn't deserve to win because they were bad decisions that got them the win but have been impressed with the fight that West Ham have shown the last couple of games, just a pity it's a bit late in the day and where was this fight the rest of the season. I don't have a problem with any footballer's lack of skill but I do take offence when a player doesn't try, if I were a West Ham fan I'd be more dissapointed in the lack of fight they've shown this season rather than the lack of results.

[Raderick]

Just stop bickering about teams that are about to get relegated and just be Manchester United fans

[rangers85]

Originally Posted by Raderick

Just stop bickering about teams that are about to get relegated and just be Manchester United fans

You mean sell my soul? I rather like my soul, which is why I'm also not a Yankee fan.

[rangers85]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

They didn't deserve to win because they were bad decisions that got them the win but have been impressed with the fight that West Ham have shown the last couple of games, just a pity it's a bit late in the day and where was this fight the rest of the season. I don't have a problem with any footballer's lack of skill but I do take offence when a player doesn't try, if I were a West Ham fan I'd be more dissapointed in the lack of fight they've shown this season rather than the lack of results.

Yeah, then again, West Ham looked horrible most of that game, then started perking up around the 65th-70th minute. They're going down I'd say, but if they can show some fight should be back up in a year.

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

More than one or two England fans and experts will tell you not to trust Steve McLarens judgement, this is the manager who usually plays one of the top central midfield players (Gerrard) on the rightwing, he's also actually played Lampard on the wing and played Andy Johnson an out an out striker on the leftwing. McLaren was employed as a yes man and not a manager he was employed because he is squeaky clean as the FA didn't want another shambles like Sven, the FA know that a monkey could pretty much manage England and qualify them for tournaments and they also wanted someone who wouldn't get caught talking to Arabs or get caught with his secretary over the office desk that's why they chose McLaren not because he's a good manager.

That's fine. So who's saying Baines should be on the squad?

[Raderick]

Originally Posted by rangers85

You mean sell my soul? I rather like my soul, which is why I'm also not a Yankee fan.

Unlike being a Yankee fan, no soul selling is needed!

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by mlyons

That's fine. So who's saying Baines should be on the squad?

Alan Hansen
Alan Shearer
Mark Lawrenson
Charlie Nicholas
Phil Thompson
Martin Jol (wants to buy him for Spurs, rumour they already turned an offer down)
Matt Le Tessier
Alex Ferguson (also shown interest in buying him)
Rafael Benitez (shown interest in buying him)
Andy Gray
Glen Roeder (shown interest in buying him, by all accounts Wigan already turned an offer down)
Jamie Redknapp
Paul Jewell

Happy now

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

Alan Hansen
Alan Shearer
Mark Lawrenson
Charlie Nicholas
Phil Thompson
Martin Jol (wants to buy him for Spurs, rumour they already turned an offer down)
Matt Le Tessier
Alex Ferguson (also shown interest in buying him)
Rafael Benitez (shown interest in buying him)
Andy Gray
Glen Roeder (shown interest in buying him, by all accounts Wigan already turned an offer down)
Jamie Redknapp
Paul Jewell

Happy now

Now, to be clear, have those people said that he deserves to be on the national squad, or have they simply said he's a good player with a lot of potential?

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by mlyons

Now, to be clear, have those people said that he deserves to be on the national squad, or have they simply said he's a good player with a lot of potential?

Well I'm thinking if a manager wants to buy him it's not to cut the grass on the field, the other ex players have said he should get a shot playing for England at various times. Before you more than likely ask if I have evidence no I don't as I was stupid enough not to tape the shows and save the press clippings for you, my bad I'll do that from now on and tape every football show and save every press clipping

If you want me to give you the cv's of the ex players just to show they weren't pub players and do know a little about football just give me a shout, I could also try and get a full medical and scout report on Baines if you so wish and every other English born leftback to prove that he is one of the best leftbacks in the country just ask although it may take me sometime

[mlyons]

Look, I'm not trying to be a jerk here. I'm just looking for information. Don't be so defensive.

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by mlyons

Look, I'm not trying to be a jerk here. I'm just looking for information. Don't be so defensive.

Not defensive but going over the same subject time and time again well kinda boring don't you think, specially with what I can gather from what you say is that you don't/wont think that Baines deserves a chance playing for England just because he plays on a less fashionable team.

It's tipped that Baines will leave Wigan in the Summer simply because they paid nothing for him and reckon he could go for up to £6,000,000 which will be too much for them to turn down, favourites for his signature are Spurs and Newcastle United, now I'll bet you anything you want that if he does leave he'll be in the England squad either the first time or second time the squad is named after he moves.

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

Not defensive but going over the same subject time and time again well kinda boring don't you think, specially with what I can gather from what you say is that you don't/wont think that Baines deserves a chance playing for England just because he plays on a less fashionable team.

I'm not sure where you're getting that. I don't think he should be on England's national team simply because I have very little evidence to suggest that he's good enough right now. In a year's time, he might very well be; he's of an age where you expect ability to start catching up with potential quickly. It has nothing to do with what team he's playing for, other than I don't personally see him in action very much.

You should know as well as anyone, though, that transfers have as much to with a player's perceived future ability as they do with his current ability. Teams' interest in Baines has a lot to do with the fact that he's 22 with a lot of years of improvement theoretically ahead of him. I don't know that the national team is necessarily interested in putting players with potential on the squad. They're more about putting the best eleven players (or the eleven players who make up the best unit) on the pitch, and I still haven't seen any indication that Baines, right now, is a better choice for that than Neville, Barry, or even a Nicky Shorey. Like I said, I'm perfectly willing to concede you the point if you just point me in the right direction.

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by mlyons

I'm not sure where you're getting that. I don't think he should be on England's national team simply because I have very little evidence to suggest that he's good enough right now. In a year's time, he might very well be; he's of an age where you expect ability to start catching up with potential quickly. It has nothing to do with what team he's playing for, other than I don't personally see him in action very much.

You should know as well as anyone, though, that transfers have as much to with a player's perceived future ability as they do with his current ability. Teams' interest in Baines has a lot to do with the fact that he's 22 with a lot of years of improvement theoretically ahead of him. I don't know that the national team is necessarily interested in putting players with potential on the squad. They're more about putting the best eleven players (or the eleven players who make up the best unit) on the pitch, and I still haven't seen any indication that Baines, right now, is a better choice for that than Neville, Barry, or even a Nicky Shorey. Like I said, I'm perfectly willing to concede you the point if you just point me in the right direction.

But you kind of contradict yourself, take for instance you say Barry should be in the squad but yet Barry as played 9 times for England (7 of those games were friendlies) in 7 years under 5 different managers so obvious that no England manager as ever rated him, you go on about potential of Baines but then say Shorey should be in the squad yet Baines as a mass of experience that Shorey doesn't have as Baines as played in more Premiership games than Shorey, played in a major cup final which Shorey hasn't and played for the England under 21's, at this point in time Shorey is a one season wonder were Baines has proved himself over two seasons.

As for Phil Neville I wont even go there he couldn't even hold a fulltime place at Man Utd and that was why he had to move to Everton so as far as I'm concerned if your not good enough for Man Utd or any other Premiership team then you aren't good enough for England, he's in the same mold as Nicky Butt and a mass of other players I could name that are good squad players but aren't good enough to play in every game for top teams and if you can't do that then your simply not good enough for England.

[mlyons]

All you're doing is running down other players. You're still not telling me why Leighton Baines specifically should be on the squad.