Historical Card Suggestion

[queuebd]

You gotta add Negro League Players.
Satchel Paige is super underrated in OOTP 19 because he only has 35 stamina??? That dude was a monster, it would be a shame if he or Josh Gibson or other stars would never get represented in OOTP PT.

[pgjocki]

Originally Posted by queuebd

You gotta add Negro League Players.

Satchel Paige is super underrated in OOTP 19 because he only has 35 stamina??? That dude was a monster, it would be a shame if he or Josh Gibson or other stars would never get represented in OOTP PT.

That does shock me because I've read books about him pitching complete games while playing in winter ball in California leagues.

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[joefromchicago]

We'll never know how many games or innings Paige pitched during his Negro League career because the statistics are incomplete and unreliable. Paige was a big star, and it was frequently the case that fans would be drawn to games that his team played by advertisements proclaiming that they'd get a chance to see Paige pitch. And they would - Paige would pitch the first three innings, then sit out the rest of the game. So his innings-pitched-per-game ratio was probably pretty low for a starter. Later, when he finally made it to the majors, he was used mostly as a reliever, so again his ratio was low.

I don't know what numbers OOTP used to come up with Paige's stamina rating, but they might have been skewed by the unusual trajectory of his career. You can always go into commissioner mode and change the rating if you want.

[BMW]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

We'll never know how many games or innings Paige pitched during his Negro League career because the statistics are incomplete and unreliable. Paige was a big star, and it was frequently the case that fans would be drawn to games that his team played by advertisements proclaiming that they'd get a chance to see Paige pitch. And they would - Paige would pitch the first three innings, then sit out the rest of the game. So his innings-pitched-per-game ratio was probably pretty low for a starter. Later, when he finally made it to the majors, he was used mostly as a reliever, so again his ratio was low.

I don't know what numbers OOTP used to come up with Paige's stamina rating, but they might have been skewed by the unusual trajectory of his career. You can always go into commissioner mode and change the rating if you want.

It must be based on his MLB stats, maybe he just had "too many MLB stats" so it figured those were the best thing to base it on. Sometimes automated data processes are just like that - you build something generalized to work over 100,000 players. It just looks at a bunch of numbers, sees that 50-year-old Paige pitched in relief and has no ability to grasp the context that was literally two decades past his prime or that he was Satchel Freaking Paige.

Someone asked for the number of innings per start in another thread, so it's relevant here, so my random work gets used in another post!

Based on his Baseball Ref numbers, which have to be taken with a grain of salt because of incompleteness (we have a number on how many games he started, but no number as to how many appearances he had, so it's unclear if he ever relieved and picked up innings that way, but lets assume the number of relief appearances were trivial).

He had 1828.1 innings over 244 starts (7.5 ip per start). He had 130 complete games (54.2% of starts).

Paige primarily pitched in the 1930s and 1940s and the league-average rates for IP per start were 6.9ip, and the CG% was about 44%.

So based on that Paige was probably as good or better stamina-wise than the league-average pitcher during his era.

These are really quick judgments too - bear in mind that the data below is for all pitchers. One would assume that a low-quality pitcher in the 1940s would get less complete games because they would be taken out earlier than the good pitchers. So they could skew the averages downwards. We have more than enough anecdotal evidence to know that Paige was a top-caliber pitcher.

But then again, the "Stamina" rating in OOTP is presumably based off the league-average pitcher, and having a high-stamina just may be another feather in the cap-of-good-qualities that a Hall of Famer has.

2018:   42 cg / 4862 (0.8%)  (5.4 ip)
2010:  165 cg / 4860 (3.3%)  (6.0 ip)
2000:  234 cg / 4858 (4.8%)  (5.9 ip)
1990:  429 cg / 4210 (10.2%) (6.1 ip)
1980:  856 cg / 4210 (20.3%) (6.3 ip)
1970:  852 cg / 3888 (21.9%) (6.4 ip)
1960:  665 cg / 2472 (26.9%) (6.4 ip)
1950:  997 cg / 2476 (40.3%) (6.7 ip)
1940: 1094 cg / 2472 (44.3%) (6.9 ip)
1930: 1095 cg / 2468 (44.4%) (6.8 ip)
1925: 1207 cg / 2456 (49.1%) (7.0 ip)
1920: 1396 cg / 2468 (56.6%)
1910: 1551 cg / 2498 (62.1%)
1900:  934 cg / 1136 (82.2%)
1890: 2880 cg / 3218 (89.5%)
1880:  608 cg /  680 (89.4%)
1871:  231 cg /  254 (90.1%)

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by BMW

Based on his Baseball Ref numbers, which have to be taken with a grain of salt because of incompleteness (we have a number on how many games he started, but no number as to how many appearances he had, so it's unclear if he ever relieved and picked up innings that way, but lets assume the number of relief appearances were trivial).

He had 1828.1 innings over 244 starts (7.5 ip per start). He had 130 complete games (54.2% of starts).

Paige primarily pitched in the 1930s and 1940s and the league-average rates for IP per start were 6.9ip, and the CG% was about 44%.

So based on that Paige was probably as good or better stamina-wise than the league-average pitcher during his era.

I don't doubt that, but my belief's not based on the numbers. Instead, it's based on the fact that: (1) Paige was a star, one of the few Negro League players who could draw fans based solely on his name; and (2) he lasted into his 50s(?), which means that the guy knew how to take care of his arm.

The NL statistics, on the other hand, are a nightmare. Seamheads, I think, is devoting more effort into compiling NL records than Baseball Ref, and their numbers show Paige starting 147 games and relieving in 35 while compiling 1028 IP, or a per-game average of about 5.6 IP/appearance.

Does that mean that Paige had below average stamina for a starter during that time period? It's impossible to know. In 1934, Paige completed 15 of his 16 starts for the Pittsburgh Crawfords and pitched a total of 145.2 innings, averaging over seven innings per appearance and probably close to nine innings per start. In 1944 for the Monarchs, however, he started in all 14 of his appearances and pitched a total of 87.2 innings, or about 6.3 IP/start. Does this mean his stamina decreased as he got older? Maybe.

I get the sense that Paige pitched as much as he thought was necessary. If it was a big game, he pitched nine innings. If it wasn't, he pitched for as long as he felt like it. And he was a big enough star that he didn't need to pitch if he didn't want to.

How does that translate into a stamina rating in OOTP? Beats me. With these NL stars, it's like what they said in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance: "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." These NL stars are legends, so make their ratings legendary. It's the only way that makes sense to me.

[BMW]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

I don't doubt that, but my belief's not based on the numbers. Instead, it's based on the fact that: (1) Paige was a star, one of the few Negro League players who could draw fans based solely on his name; and (2) he lasted into his 50s(?), which means that the guy knew how to take care of his arm.

The NL statistics, on the other hand, are a nightmare. Seamheads, I think, is devoting more effort into compiling NL records than Baseball Ref, and their numbers show Paige starting 147 games and relieving in 35 while compiling 1028 IP, or a per-game average of about 5.6 IP/appearance.

Does that mean that Paige had below average stamina for a starter during that time period? It's impossible to know. In 1934, Paige completed 15 of his 16 starts for the Pittsburgh Crawfords and pitched a total of 145.2 innings, averaging over seven innings per appearance and probably close to nine innings per start. In 1944 for the Monarchs, however, he started in all 14 of his appearances and pitched a total of 87.2 innings, or about 6.3 IP/start. Does this mean his stamina decreased as he got older? Maybe.

I get the sense that Paige pitched as much as he thought was necessary. If it was a big game, he pitched nine innings. If it wasn't, he pitched for as long as he felt like it. And he was a big enough star that he didn't need to pitch if he didn't want to.

How does that translate into a stamina rating in OOTP? Beats me. With these NL stars, it's like what they said in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance: "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." These NL stars are legends, so make their ratings legendary. It's the only way that makes sense to me.

Yes, quite true, there's only so reliable that they will ever be. Some games were a level of showmanship instead of competition - but I'd predict that those were more barnstorming games. Actual Eastern Colored League games were for championships, so I would think they would be as cutthroat as the majors. Now when Satchel is pitching for the so-and-so All Stars against another all star team, that's probably a little more laid back (personal pride not withstanding).

I will note that the Seamheads data does show about a 50% CG rate, which above average for MLB starters of that era (which is 44%). In some ways, it's could be a good indicator of pitcher stamina from that era because presumably, it more accurately measures: "if the pitcher is throwing reasonably well, how long will he last"? IP per start is less reliable for that because if some guy gets torched in the second inning, he'll get taken out. That lowers his IP per start significantly, and that's not really a measure of his stamina as much as it is a measure if his pitching quality.

Thank you for the Seamheads site, by the way, I have to check out more of that later!